http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Lorries, vans and buses face being banned from the most polluted streets" en Thu, 21 May 2026 18:34:04 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706&page=2#post-242487 Thu, 09 Feb 2017 14:05:42 +0000 Ed1 242487@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/6/14188676/diesel-cars-toxic-emissions-nitrogen-oxides-trucks-buses-europe" rel="nofollow">http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/6/14188676/diesel-cars-toxic-emissions-nitrogen-oxides-trucks-buses-europe</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706&page=2#post-242440 Wed, 08 Feb 2017 21:44:55 +0000 Stickman 242440@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There was a short piece on air pollution on "Trust Me I'm A Doctor" this evening. In summary: it's a problem, we should be worried about it and we should do something about it. </p> <p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3mXHDs31VgMfhdlhDngnBdN/should-i-worry-about-air-pollution" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3mXHDs31VgMfhdlhDngnBdN/should-i-worry-about-air-pollution</a></p> <p><em>"Studies in the US, China and the UK have shown that air pollution can slow the development of children’s lungs. Childhood exposure is important because our lungs stop growing when we are about 18 and anything that impedes that growth is irreversible, so it can have lifelong consequences. In California this risk is taken so seriously that there are laws dictating that schools should be built a certain distance away from main roads.</em>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706&page=2#post-226816 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 21:59:37 +0000 crowriver 226816@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Maybe worth revisiting this air pollution map of central Edinburgh? (scroll down page)</p> <p><a href="http://scot.okfn.org/2015/06/11/getting-the-measure-of-scotlands-air-pollution-problem/" rel="nofollow">http://scot.okfn.org/2015/06/11/getting-the-measure-of-scotlands-air-pollution-problem/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706&page=2#post-226803 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 20:06:09 +0000 Stickman 226803@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.itv.com/news/2016-08-09/is-the-school-run-damaging-your-childs-health/">Is the school run damaging your child's health?</a></p> <p>In a rare breach of Betteridges's Law, the answer is yes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706&page=2#post-226798 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 20:03:07 +0000 kaputnik 226798@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>First services to WL seem to be 50/50 modern single deckers and older first-generation low floor buses.</p> <p>In the olden days you also got 85, 86 and 69 going through Corstorphine. The 86 and 69 ended up in Leith somehow, starting at Clerwood terminus and coming down Drumbrae. Eastern Scottish also ran an 86 on a similar route. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706&page=2#post-226796 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 19:58:33 +0000 crowriver 226796@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>According to LB route map, the only services on St John's Road are 12, 26, 31, 100 Airlink. Plus I suppose express coaches to Glesca, and First services to West Lothian? Reckon this last will be the oldest, dirtiest diesel engines...</p> <p>If they just banned all the Chelsea tractors that would make a big difference. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706&page=2#post-226795 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 19:56:30 +0000 kaputnik 226795@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Apparently there's a major battery design fault on the Boris Buses and they are effectively operating in direct diesel-electric drive, bypassing the hybrid battery system entirely. The generators are <em>meant</em> to power the batteries, which in turn power the motors.</p> <p>The engines are not designed to be run this way in general as it means they have to run across an inefficient range of speeds. They are also not got the oomph to move the bus off at low speeds as moving away from a stop is a job for the batteries and motor (notice that the engine quits on one of the LB hybrids as it stops and only gets going again a few seconds after pulling away). Add to that the inefficiencies of running in diesel-electric drive instead of hybrid and lugging around a set of useless batteries the rumour (according to Christian Wolmar, who's pretty respected on transport matter) is they are not only much less efficient and more polluting than an off-the-peg hybrid (like Lothian has) but than the latest pure diesel buses! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706&page=2#post-226794 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 19:53:12 +0000 crowriver 226794@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Hybrid buses are on the service 1 as well. Which is good because it cuts pollution a bit on Easter Road and Lothian Road... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706&page=2#post-226787 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 18:43:48 +0000 acsimpson 226787@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Wfb, IIRC a lot of the buses basically use the engine as a generator and the whole drive system is electric. This ensures the engine can always run at the most efficient speed but also means that if a lot of energy is needed the engine will be always on. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706&page=2#post-226780 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 17:28:28 +0000 wee folding bike 226780@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I was on a Boris Bus a couple of weeks ago. I could have walked from Shaftesbury Ave to Hyde Pk faster but that wasn't the bus's fault and the 10 yr old was too tired to walk.</p> <p>It was noisier than I remember the Routemasters being. I thought it was a hybrid but if it was then the diesel was running all the time.</p> <p>OTOH the new S7/S8 stock subway trains are lovely.</p> <p>Bike is still the best way to get round London. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226779 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 17:18:07 +0000 neddie 226779@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I know how LB decide - multiples of 12 only for hybrid routes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226778 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 17:03:13 +0000 Stickman 226778@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The 12 (which goes along St John's Road) has been switched to the new hybrids. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226777 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 16:36:24 +0000 cc 226777@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If we're playing hunt-the-hybrid, the number 24 always seems to have lovely new hybrid buses. Maybe the Grange is a pollution hotspot... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226776 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 16:21:14 +0000 cb 226776@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The nice new hybrid single-deckers on the 36 route have recently all been pilfered and relocated elsewhere. I always assumed that they have been moved to a more pollution critical part of town. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226774 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 16:06:38 +0000 Morningsider 226774@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Probably worth pointing out that it is pretty unlikely that any Lothian Buses would be banned from a Low Emission Zone. The German examples quoted in the National Low Emissions Framework (published last year, but the basis for the Parliamentary Question) restrict Low Emission Zone entry to diesel vehicles with Euro 1,2 and 3 engines. All buses built since October 2005 should have engines that meet the Euro 4 standards.</p> <p>More details: <a href="http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2015/11/5671/14#case14" rel="nofollow">http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2015/11/5671/14#case14</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226766 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 15:06:54 +0000 Ed1 226766@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>With so many diesel cars not sure if would make that much differences, may be council should ban diesel cars from that road at peak times when pollution gets high </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226764 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 15:03:34 +0000 acsimpson 226764@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Given St John's Road's status in the hierarchy of Scottish Polution I wonder why the council hasn't asked Lothian buses to operate it's cleanest vehicles on the routes which pass that way.</p> <p>Also given that within 5 years electric vehicle technology will have developed considerably further than it already has why the SNP is talking about banning all buses rather than just the most polluting ones. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226762 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 14:56:44 +0000 crowriver 226762@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I presume someone will helpfully send all this information on pollution and cars to the Minister? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226753 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 14:25:37 +0000 slowcoach 226753@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>from the <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/21/diesel-cars-emissions-toxic-pollution-than-a-bus-data-reveals">Guardian </a>last October, "Diesel cars emit up to four times more toxic pollution than a bus" ! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226744 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 13:53:13 +0000 kaputnik 226744@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I think average bus occupancy is closer to 12</em></p> <p>I was thinking specifically about rush-hour I suppose when your average Lothian double decker will have 50-overflowing on board. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226741 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 13:47:59 +0000 neddie 226741@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think average bus occupancy is closer to 12. And car occupancy close to 1.2.</p> <p>So a bus would have to pollute 10 times more to be equivalent to a car in terms of "pollution per passenger".</p> <p>But all this ignores the inefficient use of road space by private cars, clogging up the city and causing buses (and all other vehicles) to pollute more.</p> <p>It also ignores the fact that bus users often walk part (or all*) of their journey.</p> <p>*If they have no access to a car </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226729 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 12:40:37 +0000 kaputnik 226729@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I wonder if one semi-modern, semi-well-maintained, mediumly-polluting bus (e.g. not the latest hybrids or other diesel alternatives) is really worse than the 90-or-so single occupant commuter vehicles it could replace. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226728 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 12:38:06 +0000 gibbo 226728@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It speaks volumes about the SNP that, when coming up with solutions for chronic problems caused by vehicles that the one type of vehicle that's totally off-limits is private cars. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226727 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 12:36:44 +0000 Morningsider 226727@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>WC - you can restrict the times that deliveries are made to a construction site through a condition attached to the grant of planning permission. However, the restrictions have to be reasonable - if they aren't then the developer can appeal against them. Typically, where such restrictions are applied they allow deliveries between about 0730 and 1930.</p> <p>Again, London are way ahead of us here - often requiring detailed Construction Logistics Plans to be prepared for larger developments - covering routeing, noise, vehicle types and so on. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226726 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 12:34:11 +0000 gibbo 226726@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"Lorries, vans and buses face being banned from the most polluted streets in Scotland by the end of the decade."</em></p> <p>So, redirected towards less polluted streets, which will become a lot more polluted?</p> <p>I'd be curious to know by what factor a bus is more polluting than a car. Twice? Five times? </p> <p>Or, to put it another way, at what point does removing buses - and thus encouraging more people to use cars - become self-defeating? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226723 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 12:17:20 +0000 wingpig 226723@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote><em>"In the specific instance of Donaldson's could it have been made a condition of the planning consent that operating hours of large tipper trucks be restricted?</p> <p>I think it was mentioned upthread that they are probably restricted from operating at night due to noise / impact on local residents etc. so presumably it's actually quite easy to place restrictions? Or is there something specific for night time operating?"</em></blockquote></p> <p>I'm sure there was something in the 'reporting' for the St James Centre rebuild that suggested that the huge numbers of weighty tippers carting the old St James Centre away in chunks would follow a designated route out of the city centre. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226722 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 12:14:46 +0000 cc 226722@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>We in Scotland need further devolution to local authorities, but there doesn't seem much appetite at Holyrood for this.</em></p> <p>There will be, in time, given the noisy and persistent campaigning by the likes of Lesley Riddoch and Andy Wightman for local government that's actually local and has the powers and finance to actually govern. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226720 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 11:51:53 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 226720@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That's an incredibly interesting report Morningsider, thanks! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226710 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 11:28:28 +0000 Morningsider 226710@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>WC - data from London shows that diesel cars are a significant source of NOx and PM pollution - creating more than either buses or HGVs. However, they are only one of many sources, accounting for 11% of total NOx pollution.</p> <p>Can't see Edinburgh being significantly different.</p> <p>See page 10: <a href="https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Driving%20Away%20from%20Diesel%20final%20report.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Driving%20Away%20from%20Diesel%20final%20report.pdf</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16706#post-226707 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 11:18:12 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 226707@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>In the specific instance of Donaldson's could it have been made a condition of the planning consent that operating hours of large tipper trucks be restricted?</p> <p>I think it was mentioned upthread that they are probably restricted from operating at night due to noise / impact on local residents etc. so presumably it's actually quite easy to place restrictions? Or is there something specific for night time operating?</p> <p>So many questions... </p>