CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: South Central Edinburgh

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: South Central Edinburgh - 20mph http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: South Central Edinburgh - 20mph en Tue, 19 May 2026 17:50:09 +0000 gembo on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681&page=2#post-17341 Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:47:09 +0000 gembo 17341@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I know someone who was done for speeding on his bike in a royal park (Richmond in London). Wilmington's Cow on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681&page=2#post-17244 Tue, 23 Nov 2010 19:50:19 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 17244@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Nope, he's actually right. Technically speed limits only apply to motorised vehicles. In the distant past I wrote an article on it with comments from L&B Police. They actually gave me a great lowdown. Technically if a cyclist is seen breaking the speed limit he could be done for other offences, basically revolving around recklessness (no, not cycling furiously) which can carry much higher tariffs than a £60 fine, or whatever it is these days. The reason for all of this is basically because bikes are not mandated by law to have speedos. chdot on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681&page=2#post-17243 Tue, 23 Nov 2010 19:28:52 +0000 chdot 17243@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Lots of comments on cyclechat.net, inc - "Fimm, as a cyclist the speed limits don't apply to you. They are only applicable [1] to motorised traffic.[1] OK, they do apply in a few locations such as the royal parks in London to all traffic, but not on the roads we are talking about." <a href="http://www.cyclechat.net/topic/72799-edinburgh-commuters-your-views-need-on-the-20mph-proposal/page__st__15__p__1473927#entry1473927" rel="nofollow">http://www.cyclechat.net/topic/72799-edinburgh-commuters-your-views-need-on-the-20mph-proposal/page__st__15__p__1473927#entry1473927</a> Which I don't think is true(?) chdot on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681&page=2#post-17216 Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:23:27 +0000 chdot 17216@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Primary school children cannot see cars travelling above 20 mph" <a href="http://www.bikehub.co.uk/cycling-to-school/primary-school-children-cannot-see-cars-travelling-above-20-mph/" rel="nofollow">http://www.bikehub.co.uk/cycling-to-school/primary-school-children-cannot-see-cars-travelling-above-20-mph/</a> chdot on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681&page=2#post-17021 Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:07:21 +0000 chdot 17021@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <a href="http://walkonomics.blogspot.com/2010/01/call-for-walkability-tests-for-schools.html">'Walkability tests' are a key demand in a new manifesto for 'Improving everyday transport'</a> mgj on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681&page=2#post-16984 Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:12:48 +0000 mgj 16984@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ If they are willing to spend 100k on this, they'd be better improving the road surfaces for cyclists (a large number of the roads have setts) and enforcing the existing 20 mph limits around the schools. Getting a critical mass on the road in Marchmont would be easier if the roads were not designed for horses. I suspect that the 'difficult' budget settlement the Council just recieved may make this all a bit moot. chdot on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16889 Thu, 18 Nov 2010 00:51:50 +0000 chdot 16889@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Not directly related to 30/20, but interesting - <img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4087/5185361025_1424d41b0e_o.jpg"> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit</a> chdot on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16846 Wed, 17 Nov 2010 16:27:41 +0000 chdot 16846@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "we need to push this point!" YES! <a href="mailto:20-zones@edinburgh.gov.uk">20-zones@edinburgh.gov.uk</a> 20mph Consultation FREEPOST NAT 18051 Edinburgh EH1 1BR Online Further information on the proposals can be found at <a href="http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/consultations" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/consultations</a> Public exhibitions You can view information at Newington Library from 15 – 29 November inclusive. The Library is open from 10am – 8pm Monday to Thursday; 10am – 5pm Friday; 9am – 5pm Saturday and 1pm – 5pm Sunday. Drop-in sessions Our staff will be available to answer questions about the proposals at St Catharine’s Argyll Church Hall, Grange Rd, from 5pm – 8pm on Wednesday 1 and Thursday 2 December. Kim on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16831 Wed, 17 Nov 2010 15:10:28 +0000 Kim 16831@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Should arterial routes be included in the 20mph speed limit pilot? <a href="http://www.kimharding.net/blog/?p=1485">I think they should</a>, we need to push this point! Arellcat on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16771 Tue, 16 Nov 2010 14:15:15 +0000 Arellcat 16771@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Last time I did a journey by car was to Edinburgh University, so not a heavy-duty cross-town thing. I had my GPS and it recorded an average speed of about 26mph over the four miles or thereabouts; but it was also 7pm. I've found that 18-22mph is pretty much the average speed of a motor vehicle during the daytime. That didn't stop someone yesterday overtaking me just before I cycled through a stretch of roadworks, and didn't stop someone this morning trying to overtake me on a left-hand curve with parked cars coming up on my side and an approaching car. Has anyone else wondered if the change from BST has made motorists more impatient and aggressive? chdot on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16743 Tue, 16 Nov 2010 11:51:42 +0000 chdot 16743@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "instead of BRRRUMBRRUMWHEEEFASTFAST frequently punctuated by waiting at lights and in queues" Indeed - and 'they' say fuel is expensive... wingpig on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16741 Tue, 16 Nov 2010 11:48:23 +0000 wingpig 16741@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It might take some re-education/conditioning to get drivers to be happy with relatively uninterrupted progress at moderate speeds instead of BRRRUMBRRUMWHEEEFASTFAST frequently punctuated by waiting at lights and in queues. cb on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16739 Tue, 16 Nov 2010 11:23:52 +0000 cb 16739@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I've heard ~18mph quoted as being the speed that provides maximum traffic throughput. That doesn't necessarily relate to shorter journey times though. Anyone else heard of this 18mph figure? Or can provide a reference? LaidBack on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16711 Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:05:13 +0000 LaidBack 16711@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ holisticglint have all the MOT stations in Edinburgh adjust speedos to slow everyone down. It is possible that journey times would actually drop within a few months... Could be right. If you consider the whole interaction of cars with buses, traffic lights and each other. We know that dropping speeds on motorways avoids 'push-pull' type jams... chdot on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16698 Mon, 15 Nov 2010 21:01:51 +0000 chdot 16698@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <a href="http://www.bikehub.co.uk/news/bike-to-work/new-york-to-find-that-twenty-is-plenty/">New York to find that Twenty is Plenty</a> " Rod King, founder of 20’s Plenty For Us, said: “We know that lower speeds on residential streets in continental Europe are the norm and that our 30 mph limits in the UK are an exception. Our move towards a more civilised sharing of our roads where people live, walk, cycle and shop through lower speed limits is gaining momentum, and it is great to see how this is being observed from the US. " ruggtomcat on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16688 Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:20:10 +0000 ruggtomcat 16688@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Im with Kim, Its pointless to change just the small side streets, you really need to chill the city centre traffic out, and if people realise that they *cant* go so fast, maybe they will be in less of a hurry. I hurry to leave, not hurry to get there. weird word that, hurry. hurry hurry hurry. Its true though that its good to have a small step to get people used to the idea. holisticglint on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16678 Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:21:50 +0000 holisticglint 16678@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ the majority of motor vehicle drivers will have utterly no idea what their average speed is Excellent point - Maybe a better approach will be to keep the signs the same but covertly have all the MOT stations in Edinburgh adjust speedos to slow everyone down. It is possible that journey times would actually drop within a few months... Arellcat on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16581 Mon, 15 Nov 2010 10:23:35 +0000 Arellcat 16581@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ On Longstone Road this morning, you'd be lucky to manage 5mph with all the traffic, two stretches of roadworks (TIE, of course) and a set of temporary traffic lights. cb on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16578 Sun, 14 Nov 2010 23:04:03 +0000 cb 16578@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "I'm currently reading Tom Vanderbilt's book, traffic, subtitled Why We Drive the Way We Do, and What It Says About Us. It's absolutely fascinating." Seconded. Kirst on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16577 Sun, 14 Nov 2010 23:03:18 +0000 Kirst 16577@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It is, isn't it? I read it earlier in the year and loved it. I'm currently reading Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender which is equally fascinating. Arellcat on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16576 Sun, 14 Nov 2010 12:29:42 +0000 Arellcat 16576@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I'm currently reading Tom Vanderbilt's book, traffic, subtitled Why We Drive the Way We Do, and What It Says About Us. It's absolutely fascinating. kaputnik on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16575 Sun, 14 Nov 2010 12:18:31 +0000 kaputnik 16575@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Always good to finish on an exception if poss. I like to have to try and have at least one positive interaction with a motorist a day, be it forgiveness to the driver who does something silly and acknowledges it (like the car across West Maitland Place traffic at ight angles that got caught out trying to do U-turn to get at a parking space on the other side. "Sorry mate", says he. "No problem" says I, "I'm not in a rush" - even though it was raining and cold and windy), be it letting a bus out (after all, it's going to act as my own personal windbreak) or waving a car through to turn (why not? it's not like I'm that desperate to get to work 15 seconds earlier) when you could have made them wait for you. It gives a slight warm feeling inside to help combat the winter cold, a sort of "if I had been in a car, I probably wouldn't have done that" moment. gembo on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16574 Sun, 14 Nov 2010 11:52:48 +0000 gembo 16574@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The 20mph limit should definitely be in place on all south side roads from October through to March. Firstly, in October, the students arrive and they are at university to read books but also to learn independent living skills such as how to cross roads on their own [I was very bad at this until I left university actually, but then my judgement may have been impaired pharmaceutically etc]. Secondly, it is dark. But hang on, getting to your destination (i.e. the queue of traffic ahead) 30 seconds earlier is worth the people dying surely? I think this might be the way of tackling the insanity of driving and tackling people on why using their cars is the same as invading Iraq. The only reason we are allowed to go out each day at the wheel of the mass weapons of destruction is to create an ever increasing market for oil. Whenever I try to argue with people about this in a serious way I come over all self righteous. For instance - for an average of ten minutes longer in bed in the morning- all the parents in Balerno drive their children to school - some live up country and would be 30 mins walk then 30 mins back so I can see the need for vehicle [could be bike tho if no cars on roads]. Some live 30 secs away but get in the queue as it is raining. It would be quicker for them to walk. People love their cars and see them as an extension of themselves. They go mental if you touch them. Maybe I am the same with my bike? But actually I would give people a shot if they wanted to try it [one person at work liked it so much she bought one, the new version with the correct brakes, now I am jealous] The other day a car overtook me in the cycling lane just before a left turn - I was going straight ahead - the car was turning left. The driver actually waited for me, realising what he had done. Always good to finish on an exception if poss. wingpig on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16533 Fri, 12 Nov 2010 15:18:12 +0000 wingpig 16533@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Would some modelling or demonstration showing that drivers would spend an average of thirty-eight or whatever fewer seconds waiting at lights on an average eight-minute journey across the Restricted Zone help? Again, we all know that the best way to avoid stopping at lights too often is to ease off when you see a red light in the distance so that the time spent stationary in a queue waiting for it to change is reduced (if it's a junction where you know it's difficult to filter up to the stop-box, such as at the east end of Melville Drive in the evening) but I can feel cars assembling impatiently behind me should I have the temerity to not rashly accelerate towards a queue of stationary traffic when I'm driving. I presume that there'll be some re-sequencing of the lights on the route, though also presume it won't include anything as sensible as letting the new right-turn filters escape before the oncoming traffic advances? Most right-turn filters I've encountered in the city seem designed only to allow one or two vehicles through after the bulk of the right-turn-blocking straight-over traffic has been through. kaputnik on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16531 Fri, 12 Nov 2010 15:02:36 +0000 kaputnik 16531@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I think one of the issues is that the majority of motor vehicle drivers will have utterly no idea what their average speed is, particularly across town. If they see a red and white circular sign with a "30" in it, they presume that's the speed they have to be driving at. If they're not driving at 30, there's a problem and they're goign too slow and that by driving at 30 in a 30 zone then it follows that their average speed on that journey must be 30. Cyclists "know" the hard way and from experience that this is not the case. We know that we can quite easily get up to 30 mph in favourable conditions (grade / tail wind / recumbentraption) and that we can cruise along happily at 20mph. But we also know that regardless of what speed we can get up to and can cruise at that lights and slowing and stopping for junctions and traffic makes it something to achieve a 15mph average speed across town. We also have a nice feature on our speedos that tells us exactly what this figure is - something lacking from most cars. So if you say to the motoring lobby "I'm cutting the speed limit from 30 to 20" then they interpret that as "I'm going to make you take 50% longer to get anywhere". For lack of my own research data I don't know what the precise answer is, but in town and in traffic that just doesn't hold - it's traffic and slowing and stopping for junctions and lights that would seem to be the major factor determining the average speed and therefore how long it takes you to get across town. The council needs to gather some good data and say "we're going to put a blanket 20 mph zone in town, but it will only add another 10% time on to your journey and it will reduce the deaths from people being knocked down by xx%". Min on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16525 Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:28:04 +0000 Min 16525@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Is it just me, or is this not going to lead people who oppose it to blame cyclists for it? " Huh, probably. But those people will just speed anyway like normal. However I think it is a good idea in principle, perhaps this will just be the start of a wider application of a 20mph speed limit. You have to start somewhere. :-) "But hang on, getting to your destination (i.e. the queue of traffic ahead) 30 seconds earlier is worth the people dying surely?" Well yes it is. Lets face it, most drivers get away with driving dangerously because they mostly somehow avoid killing or hurting other people, therefore what they are doing can't be dangerous can it? It is only dangerous if someone dies. And even then it isn't dangerous, merely slightly careless. Councils use this logic to refuse lollipops or pedestrian crossings because a road isn't dangerous until enough people have been killed. Plus even if a driver does kill someone they only get a small fine and a couple of points on their licence. Definately worth it. Wilmington's Cow on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16524 Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:23:08 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 16524@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Yeah, it's funny how these folk become eco-warriors at this point.... cb on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16520 Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:07:36 +0000 cb 16520@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ But at 20mph I'd have to drive everywhere in SECOND GEAR and this would make my car PUMP OUT MUCH MORE CO2. That's also what people say. I still think a 25mph limit has merit though. Wilmington's Cow on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16517 Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:30:57 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 16517@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ But hang on, getting to your destination (i.e. the queue of traffic ahead) 30 seconds earlier is worth the people dying surely? (I never understand why the point isn't put that bluntly to people who whinge about 20mph limits, just ask them, so you're happy with more people dying ont he roads than need to? - you always get people rabbiting on about, well we might as well have men with red flags in front of cars again - the desperate last throw of the dice of someone who knows the argument is lost) Kim on "South Central Edinburgh - 20mph" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1681#post-16516 Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:20:18 +0000 Kim 16516@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Take a map of Edinburgh, lay a clear sheet over it, plot the locations of the <strike>accidents</strike> crashes over the last few years, take away the map, and what do you see? The outline of the "arterial route" which are being left out of the 20mph zone, if the proposal isn't changed, it is set up to fail. The roads which need the lower speed limit are the ones with the highest accident rates. Why does it have to be 30mph or 20mph? Well people will tend to accede the which ever limit about about 5mph. Here is something to think about: Hit by a car at 20 mph, 3% of pedestrians will be killed Hit by a car at 30 mph, 20% of pedestrians will be killed Hit by a car at 35 mph, 50% of pedestrians will be killed Hit by a car at 40 mph, 90% of pedestrians will be killed Now why reduce the speed limit to 20mph?