http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: November Transport Committee papers en Sat, 02 May 2026 11:36:44 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234803 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 17:29:24 +0000 minus six 234803@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I do wonder just what it is that is so important that the occupants of the 2/3 cars sitting in the bus lane are doing that its worth inconveniencing the majority of folk going about their days.</em></p> <p>this is blighty</p> <p>you know full well that only losers take the bus </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234798 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 15:04:39 +0000 Arellcat 234798@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>That is either wonderfully understated humour, or alternatively a very charitable view</em></p> <p>The truth is, <strike>we're</strike> they're all tyre-chewing desperados with super loud aftermarket exhaust pipes, and bikers just love the sound of their engines. Vroom vroom! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234796 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 14:39:04 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur 234796@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I think some motorcyclists are worried their engines might stall so keep revving them at the lights to make sure the revs don't drop."</p> <p>That is either wonderfully understated humour, or alternatively a very charitable view... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234784 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 13:04:35 +0000 kaputnik 234784@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I can't say I've had much bother form motorbikes in bus lanes. Most use whichever position in all available lanes to progress and seem to only move into the bus lanes for filtering, preferring to drive up the middle of the road between the bus/general traffic lanes.</p> <p>My only comment would be (empirical and unsubstantiated) that I think it encourages them to encroach on the ASL box. It can be intimidating being that close to a very powerful, noisy bike that roars off at the first sign the lights are changing. I think some motorcyclists are worried their engines might stall so keep revving them at the lights to make sure the revs don't drop.</p> <p>What I think would be useful is to compare peak time weekday bus journey times (i.e. the morning and evening commute) with peak weekend journey times (i.e. 10-4ish) as people go about their shopping and weekend activities. Weekend service is terrible as the buses can't effectively make use of the bus lanes and bus drivers are reluctant to move out of the inside lane into clearer sections of bus lane as they inevitably have to squeeze back out again 50m ahead when the next parked car blocks the lane. Yet surely the weekend traveller is of great economic importance to businesses as they're generally going out to spend, spend, spend. Every time I sat stuck on a bus with 30-50 people on board at the weekend I do wonder just what it is that is so important that the occupants of the 2/3 cars sitting in the bus lane are doing that its worth inconveniencing the majority of folk going about their days. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234782 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 12:51:55 +0000 Stickman 234782@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The budget paper shows that Edinburgh is spending around £4 per head on cycling per head (£2m spend, 0.5m population). </p> <p>Better than the national average but lower than the £10 being spent in London. </p> <p>Much lower than the €85 spent by Groningen (modal share 60%)</p> <p><a href="http://road.cc/content/news/209255-dutch-city-groningen-spend-€85-head-each-year-cycling-video" rel="nofollow">http://road.cc/content/news/209255-dutch-city-groningen-spend-€85-head-each-year-cycling-video</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234767 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 11:25:13 +0000 Rob 234767@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"... the certainty there will be a car parked in it 50m from away"</em></p> <p>This is my experience on Great Junction Street. Only left turning traffic uses the left lane, and only after the last parked car before their turn. At those points it isn't a bus lane anyway. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234760 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 10:30:50 +0000 chdot 234760@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Except that they won't. "Hard-pressed" motorists will just move on to complain about the next thing."</p> <p>Bit like 'cycle campaigning'...</p> <p>As ever the problem is 'vested interests' picking on other 'vested interests'.</p> <p>We are still a <em>long</em> way from walking/cycling (and 'enabling' more of it) being just a sensible way of running a better, more efficient, less wasteful (etc.) 'society'.</p> <p>As I have said many times before, all things that have appeared in SNP manifestos, but continue to fall far behind building more roads and reducing APD. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234757 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 10:17:06 +0000 crowriver 234757@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"Hard-pressed" motorists will just move on to complain about the next thing.</em></p> <p>Having to pay for Sunday parking? Lack of <strike>parking</strike> loading bays outside their small business? 'Outrageous' amounts of money being spent on segregated bike lanes? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234754 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 10:10:37 +0000 neddie 234754@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>CEC/councillors will have less grief from noisy, agrieved, minorities (hard-pressed-motorists).</em></p> <p>Except that they won't. "Hard-pressed" motorists will just move on to complain about the next thing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234751 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 10:00:57 +0000 steveo 234751@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>TBH I'm not sure how much worse the bus lanes can be made. Even with the certainty that comes from knowing that you're fine to drive in them there comes the certainty there will be a car parked in it 50m from away. As bike lanes they're at best a half baked measure, I'd rather share the lane with tired BMW driver than a black cab or a *shudders* a First Bus.</p> <p>If they're needed at all (off peak) then they need to be 24hrs and that means no parking in them at all during the day. That includes the loading bay outside Barnado's on Gorgie which can back traffic up all the way back along to Robbie Ave, or the oft defended (not by us) Roseburn bacon roll docks for hungry van men etc. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234746 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:51:02 +0000 chdot 234746@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Delays not statistically significant, I assume."</p> <p>Yes, but they ought to have enough data to reliable say that journey times had increased (though impossibly to prove that it's due to changing times on BLs). <em>Reasonable</em> to assume that will get worse(?)</p> <p>"did it make any improvement to the journey times of single-occupant private motor cars?"</p> <p>Good point.</p> <p>Wonder if number of cars (and other vehicles) was counted.</p> <p>"So a slight disbenefit to the buses, a major disbenefit to bikes and pedestrians and no measured improvement to car journey times..."</p> <p>Quite probably.</p> <p>But if this is made permanent, drivers will have 'certainty' and CEC/councillors will have less grief from noisy, agrieved, minorities (hard-pressed-motorists). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234745 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:49:28 +0000 jonty 234745@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>steveo: ah! yes that makes sense. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234744 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:47:13 +0000 crowriver 234744@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@eddie_h, it's all about perception management. As long as lone drivers <em>perceive</em> they're putting one over on other road users, they're happy: no angry letters to EEN, councillors can rest easy, all's well with the world. I mean, lone drivers <em>are</em> more important than everyone else, right? #CommonSensePrevails </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234743 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:46:54 +0000 steveo 234743@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>TIE </p> <p>This IS Edinburgh.</p> <p>A lament from the early days of the forum which has stuck around for obvious reasons. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234742 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:45:20 +0000 jonty 234742@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>What does TIE mean?</p> <p>On a positive note, I notice they've acknowledged the Calder Road lanes are a special case - providing separation from a 40mph dual carriageway off-peak - and might "consider" making them 24hr.</p> <p>Presumably this will "confuse" hard-pressed motorists even further. It would be a lot less confusing if all the other ones were 24hr too... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234738 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:39:03 +0000 neddie 234738@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>With regard the bus lanes, what they completely failed to measure is, did it make any improvement to the journey times of single-occupant private motor cars?</p> <p>I suspect not, since they all still remained held up in the same queues at the lights.</p> <p>So a slight disbenefit to the buses, a major disbenefit to bikes and pedestrians and no <em>measured </em>improvement to car journey times... TIE. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234737 Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:29:23 +0000 fimm 234737@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Delays not statistically significant, I assume. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234710 Wed, 26 Oct 2016 20:48:27 +0000 crowriver 234710@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>'Everyone' already seems to know, judging by my experience yesterday afternoon on London Road. :-(</p> <p>I noticed some sleight of hand going on in the cycling *capital* budget figures (notes to budget):</p> <p>---</p> <p>1.Budgets in scope of calculating the 8% target spend exclude tram and certain<br /> non transport elements including flood prevention.<br /> 2. *As the 2014/15 carry forward has been accounted for in the 2014/15 figures, it<br /> has been excluded from the 2015/16 calculations.<br /> 3. **The 2015/16 under spend is not included in the 2015/16 total spend calculation. This will be included in the 2016/17 calculations</p> <p>---</p> <p>So, we can ascertain here that cycling is not 8% of the transport budget as it does not include a % of the tram. Also, this year's underspend (resulting in a 7.36% spend overall) will count towards the "9%" next year. Hence less than 9% will in fact be allocated next year, as part of this year's "8%" has been reallocated to next year...</p> <p>On the positive side, slightly more than 7% was "spent" last year (7.2% including underspend). Also the *revenue* budget spend was slightly over 8%.</p> <p>Better accounting practice would be to include any underspend in this year's figures, so there's no potential to underfund the 9% next year... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234705 Wed, 26 Oct 2016 20:04:00 +0000 chdot 234705@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"The analysis did not show a conclusive effect on transit times but <strong>did show a consistent marginal increase.</strong> [my bold]"</p> <p>Isn't that contradictory?</p> <p>So bus lane experiment - which hasn't (by observation) made much difference as cars tend to keep out anyway - <em>has</em> marginally increased bus times.</p> <p>SO when 'everyone' knows they really are free (for all) all day expect slower bus journneys(?) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234704 Wed, 26 Oct 2016 19:37:34 +0000 Arellcat 234704@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"Allowing motorcyclists to use bus lanes did not lead to any recorded incidents during the trial. Permitting this class of vehicle to use this lane will improve safety for motorcycles using these corridors."</em></p> <p>This is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.</p> <p><em>"As part of the statutory process required to make these orders permanent, they will be formally advertised, to allow any interested party to comment or object to the proposals. The relevant Neighbourhood Partnerships, will also be consulted."</em></p> <p>I wonder how our earnest correspondent from the Roseburn area will react to it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234703 Wed, 26 Oct 2016 18:52:10 +0000 Stickman 234703@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Good news is that the cycle parking trial will be rolled out further. Bad news is that "impact on car parking" is one of the criteria. So losing one vehicle space and replacing it with six others may not be a positive. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234701 Wed, 26 Oct 2016 18:49:20 +0000 HankChief 234701@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I was thinking the same thing...</p> <p><em>"</p> <p> <strong>Bus Journey Times</strong><br /> 3.8 Lothian Buses have collected and analysed bus journey times for this study and have provided the following statement for inclusion in this report:<br /> “Lothian Buses has compared the bus transit times along a range of bus lane<br /> corridors during a six week period in 2014 and the same period in 2015. The range of corridors included some which were already peak only but the majority changed to peak in 2015. The analysis did not show a conclusive effect on transit times but <strong>did show a consistent marginal increase.</strong> [my bold] </p> <p>There are many factors which contribute to increased bus journey times but traffic<br /> congestion is a significant one. Bus lanes are an effective mitigation measure for<br /> congestion and as such their provision is important in encouraging modal shift to<br /> public transport. The bus lane network needs to be regularly reviewed to identify<br /> new locations as well as identifying redundant lanes. For bus lanes to be effective they need to be kept clear during their hours of operation; this requires enforcement of parking and loading restrictions which are frequently ignored particularly in the vicinity of hotels and urban supermarkets.”</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234700 Wed, 26 Oct 2016 18:47:39 +0000 Stickman 234700@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Maybe Paul Edie will make a protest about the "sacrosanct" bus lanes? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234697 Wed, 26 Oct 2016 18:40:23 +0000 HankChief 234697@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"recommends...to make the permanent alteration to the operating times of the all day bus lanes, converting them to peak hour and to permit motorcycles to use with flow bus lanes during operational hours; "</em></p> <p>Boo</p> <p><a href="http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/52206/item_76_-_bus_lane_network_review">download TEC paper</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17076#post-234696 Wed, 26 Oct 2016 18:33:35 +0000 Stickman 234696@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/meetings/meeting/4053/transport_and_environment_committee" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/meetings/meeting/4053/transport_and_environment_committee</a></p> <p>Includes reports on the bus lane trial, cycle parking trial and the cycling budget. </p>