http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Sheriffhall Roundabout consultation etc. en Sun, 17 May 2026 14:39:24 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=8#post-383885 Thu, 16 Apr 2026 21:38:05 +0000 chdot 383885@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>The government may already have an AI system that could respond to a rise in AI-generated objections. It has launched an AI tool called Consult, which analyses responses to public consultations.</p> <p>It did so in the expectation that “widespread adoption of large language models [such as that used by Objector] will likely only increase the number of responses that consultations attract”.</p> <p>Paul Smith, the managing director of Strategic Land Group, a consultancy, this month reported on the rising use of AI by people to oppose planning applications.</p> <p>“AI objections undermine the whole rationale for public consultation,” he wrote in Building magazine. “Local communities, we are told, know their areas best … So, we should ask them what they think.</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/nov/09/ai-powered-nimbyism-could-grind-uk-planning-system-to-a-halt-experts-warn" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/nov/09/ai-powered-nimbyism-could-grind-uk-planning-system-to-a-halt-experts-warn</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=8#post-383779 Thu, 02 Apr 2026 12:48:32 +0000 neddie 383779@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Very thoughtful of them to include a cemetery next to the junction </p> <p>70mph head-on smash anyone? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=8#post-383776 Thu, 02 Apr 2026 08:01:40 +0000 chdot 383776@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>A better Sheriffhall Roundabout. </p> <p>Today, I had the absolute pleasure of catching up with some of my former Civil Engineering students at Heriot-Watt University, and what they’ve achieved genuinely blew me away.</p> <p>1/3</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://bsky.app/profile/drscottarthurmp.bsky.social/post/3mihi5uhvds2q" rel="nofollow">https://bsky.app/profile/drscottarthurmp.bsky.social/post/3mihi5uhvds2q</a></p> <p>(Presume ‘April Fool’) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=8#post-383568 Fri, 20 Mar 2026 10:03:47 +0000 Morningsider 383568@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Nope - that's nonsense. Ministers make the final decision on whether a trunk road scheme goes ahead. When there has been a public inquiry into a proposals, the Reporter chairing the inquiry produces a report with reccomendations for Ministers. There are two options available to Ministers (1) agree with the Reporter, or (2) disagree with the Reporter.</p> <p>(1) is easy. The decision could be made in a few days, all civil servants need to do is draft a letter that states Ministers agree with the reporter and the scheme can go ahead/is refused for the reasons set out in the Report.</p> <p>(2) is a bit harder. Ministers need to explain why they are rejecting the Reporter's recommendations. Minister's decision could be subject to legal challenge. However, Minister's reasons simply need to be "rational" to resist challange (i.e. meet the requirements of the "Wednesbury rules"). This could be something as simple as arguing the Reporter has given insufficient weight to the wider economic benefits of a scheme. This would need technical and legal input - could take a couple of months, but I can see no justification for two and a half years.</p> <p>I suspect the real reason is both practical, there isn't enogh money to do this, and political, any decision will annoy a large group of voters - where pro or anti the scheme. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=8#post-383566 Fri, 20 Mar 2026 08:52:07 +0000 chdot 383566@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>Ministers still waiting for advice from officials two-and-a-half years after report </p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/edinburgh-roads-no-go-ahead-for-sheriffhall-flyover-until-after-election-6034829?ref=edinburghminute.com" rel="nofollow">https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/edinburgh-roads-no-go-ahead-for-sheriffhall-flyover-until-after-election-6034829?ref=edinburghminute.com</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=8#post-382221 Fri, 28 Nov 2025 15:03:27 +0000 chdot 382221@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-sheriffhall-flyover-may-never-be-built-unless-it-gets-go-ahead-before-holyrood-election-claims-msp-5421510" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-sheriffhall-flyover-may-never-be-built-unless-it-gets-go-ahead-before-holyrood-election-claims-msp-5421510</a></p> <p>(First post on this thread 8 years ago) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=8#post-381082 Mon, 08 Sep 2025 08:09:48 +0000 chdot 381082@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>Project manager and engineer Gavin Dyet, who directs design and promotion of the scheme, represented Transport Scotland to the Edinburgh and South East Scotland City Region Joint Deal committee on Friday. </p> <p>He said Scottish transport secretary Fiona Hyslop “realised it was a priority scheme for partners”, and that the Scottish Government was committed to it. </p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/frustration-over-sheriffhall-flyover-scottish-32424249?int_source=amp_continue_reading&amp;int_medium=amp&amp;int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/frustration-over-sheriffhall-flyover-scottish-32424249?int_source=amp_continue_reading&amp;int_medium=amp&amp;int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=8#post-379965 Thu, 12 Jun 2025 16:38:00 +0000 acsimpson 379965@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm not sure why I clicked the bait to confirm that this was indeed Miles Briggs. In what sane world is a 150% budget increase before the first spade hits the ground seem as a reason to prioritise a project. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=8#post-379961 Thu, 12 Jun 2025 16:00:55 +0000 chdot 379961@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>Upgrading Edinburgh's Sheriffhall roundabout is likely to cost up to two and a half times the original budget,an MSP has predicted as he accused the Scottish Government of "dither and delay" over the project. </p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-sheriffhall-junction-cost-of-flyover-could-now-been-two-and-a-half-times-original-estimate-claims-msp-5173114" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-sheriffhall-junction-cost-of-flyover-could-now-been-two-and-a-half-times-original-estimate-claims-msp-5173114</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=8#post-378266 Thu, 16 Jan 2025 10:32:30 +0000 chdot 378266@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>The project was included in the Edinburgh city region deal agreed in 2018 and funded by the UK and Scottish governments, but work has not yet started. </p> <p>Supporters say the upgrade - priced at £120m in 2018 - is essential to tackle worsening congestion at one of the busiest roundabouts on the Edinburgh City Bypass, but critics including the Greens claim it would create a "spaghetti junction" and generate even more traffic. </p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-sheriffhall-roundabout-upgrade-branded-a-dinosaur-project-4945249" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-sheriffhall-roundabout-upgrade-branded-a-dinosaur-project-4945249</a></p> <p><a href="https://archive.ph/lzpo9" rel="nofollow">https://archive.ph/lzpo9</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=8#post-375387 Tue, 11 Jun 2024 08:21:43 +0000 chdot 375387@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>Council leaders from across south-east Scotland are growing increasingly frustrated at delays to the upgrade of Sheriffhall roundabout – which is set to cost “considerably more” than the original £120m price tag. </p> <p>It comes eight months after an independent report on the controversial project was completed. </p> <p>…</p> <p>Transport Scotland’s Gavin Dyet said costs would be updated soon and would be subject to “annual budget scrutiny”.</p> <p>He gave the committee assurances the Scottish Government remained “committed” to the project.</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/council-leaders-grow-impatient-over-roundabout-upgrade-delays-4660447" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/council-leaders-grow-impatient-over-roundabout-upgrade-delays-4660447</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=8#post-375158 Sun, 26 May 2024 14:51:28 +0000 chdot 375158@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-375157 Sun, 26 May 2024 14:45:18 +0000 Morningsider 375157@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It is standard practice for the report to be published, but I'm not sure that it is a legal requirement. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-375155 Sun, 26 May 2024 14:08:56 +0000 chdot 375155@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks</p> <p>Suspected as much</p> <p>“normally“? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-375154 Sun, 26 May 2024 14:05:26 +0000 Morningsider 375154@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@chdot - no. The job of the Reporter is to conduct the inquiry and then write a report, including recommendations, for consideration by Ministers. It is Ministers that make the final decision. They do not have to follow the Reporter's recommendations. The report is normally published alongside the ministerial decision. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-375152 Sun, 26 May 2024 12:22:13 +0000 chdot 375152@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yes to all that. </p> <p>From above</p> <p>“</p> <p>The independent Reporter has now presented their recommendations to the Scottish Ministers and this is under active consideration.</p> <p>“</p> <p>Are the “recommendations” public? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-375151 Sun, 26 May 2024 11:14:04 +0000 ejstubbs 375151@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><strong>@chdot:</strong> From the article linked in your post:</p> <p><blockquote>Tory MSP for the Lothians Miles Briggs claims the collapse of the SNP’s agreement at Holyrood with the Scottish Greens provides an opportunity for the government to move forward with the scheme with less resistance.</blockquote></p> <p>So basically, pure "culture wars" opportunism.</p> <p>Furher down in the article Mr Briggs is quoted as saying:</p> <p><blockquote>The Sheriffhall upgrade would help with safety and congestion</blockquote></p> <p>I think all of us on this forum know why the congestion claim is highly dubious Induced demand and all that), but <em>safety</em>? How does modifying infrastructure to encourage/enable drivers to travel at higher speeds increase safety? He's got hold of KSI figures for the whole of the bypass and seems to be suggesting that most of them occur in or around the Sherriffhall roundabout. Direct experience of congestion on local roads caused by drivers trying to avoid delays caused by serious crashes suggests that a high proportion of such incidents occur west of Sheriffhall, and particularly on the section between Lothianburn and the M8 junction i.e. the bits where the junctions are already grade-separated. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-375148 Sat, 25 May 2024 22:07:04 +0000 Morningsider 375148@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The Bypass is objectively safe, as assessed by the rigorous European Roads Assessment Programme. You can check out the safety rating of all UK strategic roads using the attached map and dashboard (warning - time sink, also doesn't seem to like Chrome):</p> <p><a href="http://rsfmaps.agilysis.co.uk/" rel="nofollow">http://rsfmaps.agilysis.co.uk/</a></p> <p>The risk of a fatal or serious collision on the Bypass is 10.8 per billion vehicle kilometres. By way of comparison, the risk of such a collision on the A702 (Fairmilehead to Lothian Road) is 188 per billion vehicle kilometres. </p> <p>The people arguing for 'improvements' to the Bypass also successfully argued for the Spaces for People measures on Comiston and Morningside Roads to be removed, despite them being the more 'dangerous' roads. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-375146 Sat, 25 May 2024 18:11:04 +0000 chdot 375146@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>Ms Hyslop said: “The Scottish Government is committed to delivering the grade separation of Sheriffhall roundabout, as part of its £300 million commitment to the Edinburgh and South East Scotland City Region Deal.</p> <p>“Following publication of the draft Orders and Environmental Statement, Transport Scotland received a significant number of objections to the proposed scheme.</p> <p>“Although Transport Scotland engaged widely with objectors, it was unable to resolve all objections. In view of this, a Public Local Inquiry was held from 31 January to 8 February 2023.</p> <p>“As with all trunk road projects, this is the appropriate statutory forum for considering objections received and not withdrawn. The independent Reporter has now presented their recommendations to the Scottish Ministers and this is under active consideration.</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-roads-150-injured-or-killed-in-city-bypass-crashes-amid-upgrade-calls-4640464" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-roads-150-injured-or-killed-in-city-bypass-crashes-amid-upgrade-calls-4640464</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-374149 Wed, 20 Mar 2024 09:16:36 +0000 chdot 374149@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>NEW REPORT FINDS SCOTLAND’S ‘DIRTY DEALS’ FUELLING CLIMATE AND POVERTY FAILURES </p> <p>…</p> <p>Transform is calling for Parliamentary inquiry and immediate halt to new road schemes</p> <p><a href="https://transform.scot/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Transform-Scotland-Dirty-Deals-report-March-2024.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://transform.scot/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Transform-Scotland-Dirty-Deals-report-March-2024.pdf</a></p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://transform.scot/2024/03/19/new-report-finds-scotlands-dirty-deals-fuelling-climate-and-poverty-failures/" rel="nofollow">https://transform.scot/2024/03/19/new-report-finds-scotlands-dirty-deals-fuelling-climate-and-poverty-failures/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-374148 Wed, 20 Mar 2024 09:14:42 +0000 chdot 374148@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>"These politicians could have decided to reduce inequalities by investing in public transport and in our streets, but instead they decided to worsen inequalities and increase climate emissions by spending public funds on schemes that will further benefit the more affluent. </p> <p>"We’re fed up with Scotland's political class mouthing empty platitudes about ‘net zero’ and ‘anti-poverty’ yet decade after decade making deliberate decisions to build new infrastructure that makes the country’s climate failure more and more certain, and neglects to provide fairer access to transport for the country’s poorest." </p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburghs-sheriffhall-roundabout-flyover-scheme-should-be-halted-say-transport-campaigners-4561302" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburghs-sheriffhall-roundabout-flyover-scheme-should-be-halted-say-transport-campaigners-4561302</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-372031 Thu, 30 Nov 2023 22:47:01 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur 372031@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The A701 relief road is back on the agenda of course, albeit on a different alignment (&amp; incredilbly one that looks even worse for active travel between Midlothian &amp; the city)</p> <p><a href="https://www.a701reliefroad.co.uk/" rel="nofollow">https://www.a701reliefroad.co.uk/</a></p> <p>I honestly believe Midlothian Council won’t be satisfied until it’s utterly impossible to travel between Midlothian CEC except by motor vehicle (very slowly) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-372028 Thu, 30 Nov 2023 18:10:42 +0000 chdot 372028@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Induced demand…</p> <p><img src="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGj4JNTUYAAGKGl?format=jpg&amp;name=small "></p> <p><a href="https://twitter.com/ABCTV/status/1182468049011535872">Video</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-372025 Thu, 30 Nov 2023 17:07:16 +0000 Arellcat 372025@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Not Sheriffhall but Gowkley Moss, and a bit of history:</p> <p><a href="https://www.wussu.com/roads/r02/r0206071.htm" rel="nofollow">https://www.wussu.com/roads/r02/r0206071.htm</a></p> <p><blockquote><strong>A701 protest walk - Gowkley Moss - Sunday 9th June 2002</strong></p> <p>Route walk against Midlothian Council's road-building on the A701</p> <p>On behalf of A701 No Alignment Action Group (NAAG):</p> <p>"Goodbye Midlothian, Hello Greater Edinburgh"</p> <p>NAAG believes that this project -<br /> <ul><li>Is a waste of scarce financial resources while other Council services are being cut.</li><li>Shows continuing priority for expenditure on road-building while the Council's stated priority is for new rail infrastructure.</li><li>Is a Trojan Horse for further development in the Green Belt.</li><li>Contravenes Scottish Executive and DETR roundabout design guidelines.</li></ul></blockquote></p> <p>They built it anyway. But not <em>quite</em>. Here is what we could have had:</p> <p><a href="https://api.bgs.ac.uk/sobi-scans/v1/borehole/scans/items/803477" rel="nofollow">https://api.bgs.ac.uk/sobi-scans/v1/borehole/scans/items/803477</a></p> <p>which is why the roundabout <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.8578763,-3.1853939,183m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en&amp;entry=ttu">as currently formed</a> has on its northern-eastern edge the stump of an unbuilt road - a twenty-year old A701 Relief Road, as it were.</p> <p>I don't see any reason why Sheriffhall shouldn't be seen as a 2023 equivalent trojan horse. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-372024 Thu, 30 Nov 2023 15:43:08 +0000 neddie 372024@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>In other news, planners, politicians and transport "experts" fail to understand, or wilfully ignore, induced-demand</p> <p>"... but more traffic is a good thing, right? Even if logged-jammed. I mean, think of the economic benefit of the masses being addicted to expensive motors, all sitting for hours doing nothing bar looking at their smartphones..." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-372021 Thu, 30 Nov 2023 15:00:19 +0000 amir 372021@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>No unexpectedly, they are ignoring the key issue of too much traffic for any network. The roads south of the roundabout can be logjammed well before the bypass crossings. This seems only likely to get worse with more house building in progress. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-372020 Thu, 30 Nov 2023 14:40:54 +0000 chdot 372020@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>Future of Edinburgh's Sheriffhall Roundabout £120m upgrade set to be announced</p> <p>Critics say Sheriffhall will become a "spaghetti junction" if the project goes ahead - but transport chiefs argue its vital to address traffic issues on a "key route in the region”.</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/future-edinburghs-sheriffhall-roundabout-120m-28201584" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/future-edinburghs-sheriffhall-roundabout-120m-28201584</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-367529 Thu, 13 Apr 2023 18:00:54 +0000 acsimpson 367529@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@chdot. I think this driver was attempting a physical roundabout crossing:<br /> <img src="https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PlayfulThankfulIriomotecat-max-1mb.gif"> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-367528 Thu, 13 Apr 2023 16:14:44 +0000 Morningsider 367528@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Looks like the UK Government has been missing a trick. Seems all they need to do is assure SNP MSPs "that the current design is the most appropriate" and they will happy leave it at that. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17236&page=7#post-367526 Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:42:03 +0000 chdot 367526@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>Colin Beattie, Scottish National Party MSP for Midlothian North and Musselburgh, also commented in favour of the planned development, saying that the new flyover would improve cycling and public transport links. </p> <p>“The current proposals have been reviewed to see whether they needed to be changed to provide better facilities for active travel and public transport, and it was determined that the current design is the most appropriate,” Mr Beattie said. “Transport Scotland further confirmed that there are extensive footway and cycleway facilities, which means that pedestrians and cyclists will not have to cross the roundabout physically.”</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.midlothianview.com/news/sheriffhall-flyover-report-due-by-june" rel="nofollow">https://www.midlothianview.com/news/sheriffhall-flyover-report-due-by-june</a></p> <p>“</p> <p>which means that pedestrians and cyclists will not have to cross the roundabout physically</p> <p>“</p> <p>I’m not even sure what they <em>think</em> they mean. </p>