http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: The true cost of Urban Travel en Tue, 19 May 2026 14:28:27 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249293 Sun, 07 May 2017 22:16:54 +0000 gembo 249293@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You can get about three years out of schwalbe marathon plus without being lucky before you start getting unlucky if you know what I mean</p> <p>Last week I left my saddle bag with most necessary tools attached to my road bike. So was commuting with very little in the way of repair possibilities all week,</p> <p>My summer road bike has gcontingrandprix on front 25mm and espoir from spesh that came with the bike on rear 23mm</p> <p>My commuting bike has marathon plus 28mm. Never seen them skinnier than that for 700mm but never looked. They would be sluggish on a fast road bike,</p> <p>Chap I was out with today had very fat looking tyres. Said they were only 25mm but his rims were also wide on the wheels so the tyres inflate fat. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249292 Sun, 07 May 2017 21:29:06 +0000 Frenchy 249292@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@crowriver - 23s. And since there's not enough room to put anything bigger on the road bike, I don't really know what I'm missing out on. Ignorance is bliss :) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249291 Sun, 07 May 2017 21:23:25 +0000 neddie 249291@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I can confirm Schwalbe Delta Cruisers are garbage. The one fitted to my new bike has lasted less than a year and &lt;1500 miles, wearing through and splitting.</p> <p>Standard Marathons better, but I've also had premature failures and cracking with them. Now have Marathon Plus fitted to the rear- let's see how that goes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249290 Sun, 07 May 2017 21:14:19 +0000 wingpig 249290@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Currently trying squidgily-thickly-treaded Marathons Plus again after Armadilloes stopped being puncture-resistant. The rubbery bit of Armadilloes from 23 to 28mm would usually start flaking off after a couple of thousand miles, leaving the fabric exposed. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249289 Sun, 07 May 2017 21:02:34 +0000 crowriver 249289@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Frency, you're riding 23mm? 21mm?</p> <p>Each to his/her own, but I'd say that's too bone-shaking for non-racing (or sportive) usage. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249275 Sun, 07 May 2017 19:02:16 +0000 Frenchy 249275@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Narrowest is a 25mm I believe? </em></p> <p>There goes that experiment. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249274 Sun, 07 May 2017 18:37:12 +0000 crowriver 249274@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Narrower tyres are likely to wear faster, though, I guess."</p> <p>Possibly. Though my 700 x 28 standard Marathons on my audax bike have done pretty big mileages and are still going strong. No p******es so far...<br /> Marathon Plus really are bombproof though. Unless you're unlucky and get a faulty tyre, which is pretty rare I think. Narrowest is a 25mm I believe? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249272 Sun, 07 May 2017 18:24:36 +0000 Frenchy 249272@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I will have to experiment, I think. Last set of Gatorskins did 2500 miles. Narrower tyres are likely to wear faster, though, I guess. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249271 Sun, 07 May 2017 18:18:39 +0000 crowriver 249271@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Hold on - your tyres have done 12000 miles?"</p> <p>Yep. Back tyre has the most wear, but still plenty of tread left. Got my first *ever* p******e with these tyres, on the rear, in March. Slow one, tiny hole caused by a staple/needle which worked its way into tyre.</p> <p>I'm running 700 x 32 on this bike, try to keep them reasonably inflated to avoid pinch flats. I reckon they're good for another few years probably. No cracking to sidewalls or anything like that (yet). Really almost indestructible. Worth every penny. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249269 Sun, 07 May 2017 18:10:55 +0000 wee folding bike 249269@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Even on a Brompton Marathon Plus will do 12000 miles easily. They are heavy but very tough. My 2013 M6R does most of the winter millage and is still on its first set of Pluses.</p> <p>Brompton wheels have have the radius and therefore half the circumference so tyres don't last as long. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249267 Sun, 07 May 2017 18:00:28 +0000 Frenchy 249267@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Hold on - your tyres have done 12000 miles? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249263 Sun, 07 May 2017 17:30:12 +0000 crowriver 249263@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>We can extend WFB's old car analogy to old bikes, e,g. my 1995 Raleigh.</p> <p>Cost: £75 second hand.<br /> Parts/upgrades: drop bars, stem, shifters, tyres/tubes, bar tape, brake levers, dynamo hub wheel (second hand), lights. Maybe £150 tops all in.<br /> Purchased: 2011<br /> Maintenance/repairs: Hub bearings service x 3: £60 One new inner tube x £7, brake blocks £12, new canti brakes £20. Needs new bar tape this year: £6<br /> No noticeable depreciation.</p> <p>Total cost of ownership over 6 years: £330 or £56 per year on average. Obviously the longer I run the bike, the less it will cost per annum.</p> <p>Total mileage: tricky one. I did a few audaxes on this in the early days, plus CTC rides, etc. Still do the odd medium distance ride on this, and it is used as a runabout quite a lot. So maybe 3,000 a year for the first 3 years, and probably 900 maximum per annum after that, as other bikes take up various specialist roles. So say 12,000 miles over six years.</p> <p>Cost per mile averaged over that period: 2.75 pence. Will get cheaper over next couple of years, until new tyres are needed. Though the Marathon Plus are still going strong... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249249 Sun, 07 May 2017 15:02:01 +0000 fimm 249249@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Pontificate: to express one's opinions in a pompous and dogmatic way"<br /> I hope I wasn't being pompous and dogmatic...<br /> The stats I was failing to remember were in the context of older people who have always had a car but now don't drive it very far. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249225 Sat, 06 May 2017 18:39:10 +0000 chdot 249225@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Can we subtract for not using a gym?"</p> <p>Yes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249224 Sat, 06 May 2017 18:28:31 +0000 wee folding bike 249224@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>My car was off the road for year because I took a while to mend the water pump. When it came up for MOT last month I suggested laying it up again if it didn't pass. Management overruled this on the grounds of it being occasionally useful when boys have to go to different bands/shows/gym/girlfriends etc.</p> <p>It's done under 1000 miles in the last year so, even with a '97 Volvo, that's under £300 on gas.</p> <p>Insurance and VED around £450.</p> <p>MOT was £130 (welding and some futzing).</p> <p>WeBuyAnyCar have been offering me £100-150 for for the last few years. I've had it for 12 years. No real depreciation anymore.</p> <p>So about £1 a mile.</p> <p>Bromptons do about 4000 to and from work. I don't keep track of other milage. I got a new back wheel in November. A few chains, sprockets and brake blocks. I'd guess around £200 in the year.I didn't have to get any tyres this year.</p> <p>The newest one is 4 years old. Got it on a CycleToWork scheme. Again depreciation is pretty low.</p> <p>About 5p a mile I suppose. </p> <p>Can we subtract for not using a gym? A NL gym membership is about £30 so I might actually make a fiver a month by riding a bike. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249207 Sat, 06 May 2017 14:28:26 +0000 chdot 249207@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>Walkonomics (@Walkonomics)<br /> 04/02/2017, 21:54<br /> Someone with a 1 hour car commute needs to earn 40% more, to be as #Happy as someone who walks to work #Walkable </p> <p><a href="https://www.fastcoexist.com/3062989/50-reasons-why-everyone-should-want-more-walkable-streets" rel="nofollow">https://www.fastcoexist.com/3062989/50-reasons-why-everyone-should-want-more-walkable-streets</a></p> <p>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249164 Sat, 06 May 2017 07:10:45 +0000 steveo 249164@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You missed the cost of a rental car if you want to go anywhere that isn't on the rail network, or want to take more than two bikes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249163 Fri, 05 May 2017 23:43:04 +0000 I were right about that saddle 249163@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>A middle market bike has say a £500 purchase price, 5 year life </em></p> <p>Seventeen years and counting for the Scaffolding Bike™. Marins are for life. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249160 Fri, 05 May 2017 23:12:00 +0000 Klaxon 249160@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That was my mindset too. I didn't even think about how much standing costs were hitting me until towards the last six months of car ownership when I got a big and avoidable bill for brakes that had rusted beyond repair due to lack of use. Taxes/insurance etc were just 'another bill' that I ignored out of my bottom line like I do taxes </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249157 Fri, 05 May 2017 22:52:46 +0000 crowriver 249157@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I suspect a lot of extra driving is done due to the fact that a lot of the costs are already fixed and paid for up-front. Got the car - might as well use it..."</p> <p>Of course this is the case. Why? Because it's there. People who have cars just travel a lot more, because they can, and because they might as well get "VFM" for all the dose coming out of the account on a regular basis. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249150 Fri, 05 May 2017 21:52:51 +0000 neddie 249150@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>When you don't own a car, behaviour modification kicks in...</p> <p>So you don't try to take taxis for 10,000 miles. You don't even go 5 miles to supermarket or screwfix anymore (or as often as you used to)</p> <p>Instead, you go by train (e.g ~£0.20 per mile based on return to London at £160), or fly (similar cost). Instead you shop locally - yes it costs you a bit more, but not as much as your £10x2 taxi fares to the supermarket. For kids activities, you might book ones that are nearer, or cadge* lifts with their friends etc.</p> <p>*Only works to an extent, obvs.</p> <p>I suspect a lot of extra driving is done due to the fact that a lot of the costs are already fixed and paid for up-front. Got the car - might as well use it... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17718#post-249148 Fri, 05 May 2017 21:33:41 +0000 Klaxon 249148@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Fimm made a post in the taxi topic pontificating about how much taxi use would you need to make before it is uneconomical vice a car. </p> <p>I had my last car for about six years. Let's calculate whole of life costs</p> <p>120 tax - £720<br /> 250 servicing (averaged, some very expensive years and some cheap) - £1500<br /> 60 MOT (I think) - £360<br /> 400 insurance - £2400<br /> 120 breakdown cover - £720<br /> My purchase price depreciation was about £6000 and I paid about £800 (guess) in loan interest<br /> I'm not going to consider parking cost at home or at work. </p> <p>Total static costs: £12500 or £2083/year<br /> Fuel cost was about 20p / mile</p> <p>(n * 0.2 + 2083) / n</p> <p>So 1000 miles is £2.28/mi or £2280 or £43/wk<br /> 2500 is £1.03/mile or £2575 or £49/wk<br /> 5000 is 61p/mile or £3050 or £58/wk<br /> 10000 is 40p/mile or £4038 or £77/wk</p> <p>Even at 10,000 miles a year, every year (which I didn't do), over half the cost of ownership would have still been the standing costs. This was ultimately my biggest motivator in me selling up.</p> <p>The taxi rate table is rather more complex in permutations, but let's assume cheapest entry (£2.10) and £2.17/mile thereafter and they never get stuck in traffic</p> <p>2 rtn journeys a week at 5 miles (a trip to out of town shopping centre) would cost £25.9/wk or £1346/yr or £2.58/mile<br /> 4 rtn journeys a week at 3 miles (take kids to after school activities) would cost £34/wk or £1790/yr or £2.86/mile<br /> 10 rtn journeys a week at 2 miles (a commute from Ferry Rd to New Town) would cost £64.4/wk or £3348/yr or £3.21/mile</p> <p>A car becomes economical compared to a taxi very quickly, if you consider many people will want to do all three of the above, plus occasional other trips. </p> <p>I shall compare to public transport</p> <p>A Lothian bus pass costs £600/yr or £11.5/wk</p> <p>Two adult and two child passes are £1800/yr or £34/wk</p> <p>This is pretty good by comparison. With careful home choice close, one can commute by bus and never need to drive. </p> <p>And the cost of running a bike</p> <p>A middle market bike has say a £500 purchase price, 5 year life before you n+1 it and £40 a year in upkeep. Sell for £80. </p> <p>£124/yr or £2.38/wk. Even less if you DIY maintenance and keep it longer.</p> <p>You have a family and want take them all places and make big trips to the supermarket and Screwfix?</p> <p>An Urban Arrow costs £3300 according to their website, and let's say £120 a year in upkeep (servicing and leccy, maybe a new battery after 3 years? total guess). You're going to keep it til it dies (uh, estimate 6 years for the sake of this example)</p> <p>£670/yr or £12/wk. It's a quarter of a price of a low use urban car over whole of life, and the majority of this is front loaded in the purchase price.</p> <p>Methinks the bicycle wins! </p>