http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: cyclist charged with "by wanton or furious driving" en Mon, 18 May 2026 03:39:37 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261631 Mon, 25 Sep 2017 22:37:38 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur 261631@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>And so it continues</p> <p>'Now as term time starts, Police Scotland is warning that cycling on illegal bikes will not be tolerated.</p> <p>Superintendent Louise Blakelock from Police Scotland's Road Policing Unit said that in light of the death in London there would be heightened levels of enforcement in Scotland.</p> <p>"Cyclists must obey all traffic signs, traffic light signals, must not cycle on pavements and must ensure that their pedal cycle complies with all legal requirements," she said.'</p> <p>Dead cat dead cat dead cat</p> <p><a href="http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15554700.Death_of_Scots_mother_in_bike_crash_sparks_fresh_police_warnings_over__fixies_/" rel="nofollow">http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15554700.Death_of_Scots_mother_in_bike_crash_sparks_fresh_police_warnings_over__fixies_/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261553 Mon, 25 Sep 2017 13:19:34 +0000 gembo 261553@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@barnton-to-town, yes he said he was sorry but it was not his fault.</p> <p>He was tried by jury, he should have been more remorseful for sure and they might have found him not guilty or the judge mioght have fined him? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261546 Mon, 25 Sep 2017 12:53:56 +0000 paddyirish 261546@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2017/sep/25/ministers-call-for-cyclists-to-behave-is-more-headline-grabbing-hypocrisy">Good article</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261540 Mon, 25 Sep 2017 11:48:20 +0000 minus six 261540@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>the cyclist represented a particular demographic, and went to jail because the media demanded it</p> <p>the <em>urgent review of dangerous cycling</em> has already achieved its goal</p> <p>which is that cyclists are a problem that drivers shouldn't have to suffer </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261530 Mon, 25 Sep 2017 10:10:47 +0000 barnton-to-town 261530@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@gembo<br /> "the cyclist would have only been fined had he not been tweeting about killing the woman. "</p> <p>Is that true? And if it's true, was the jailing for "lack of remorse" or some issue re contempt of court?<br /> If the former, as much as I've read, he claimed via twitter that it wasn't his fault but is sorry the woman died. That doesn't seem particularly eloquent, but eloquence isn't a requirement when showing remorse. He was pleading his innocence, which we're all entitled to do. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261427 Sat, 23 Sep 2017 13:52:54 +0000 gembo 261427@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>ThAt bike looks nice, if a front brake was fitted?</p> <p>The Hackney gazette editorial omits my point that the cyclist would have only been fined had he not been tweeting about killing the woman. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261426 Sat, 23 Sep 2017 13:35:09 +0000 neddie 261426@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Parked in the Grassmarket today. Note: <strong>No front brake</strong></p> <p><a href="https://flic.kr/p/YJbSHW"><img src="https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4374/37233393592_90368757a5.jpg"></a><a href="https://flic.kr/p/YJbSHW">Untitled</a> by <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/bonsai_bonus/">Ed</a>, on Flickr </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261425 Sat, 23 Sep 2017 13:03:33 +0000 crowriver 261425@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Editor’s comment: Kim Briggs’ death was a tragedy, but I don’t believe Charlie Alliston deserves to be in jail</p> <p><a href="http://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/news/features/editor-s-comment-i-don-t-believe-young-cyclist-deserves-jail-1-5204527?" rel="nofollow">http://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/news/features/editor-s-comment-i-don-t-believe-young-cyclist-deserves-jail-1-5204527?</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261284 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 19:24:01 +0000 gembo 261284@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>According to the Secret Barrister blog that nedd1e-h links to up thread, every offence of violence causing injury short of death is prosecuted under the same 1861 Offences against the person act thAt was portrayed as antique in the press. The section for wanton and furious driving is not used as there are laws that are supposed to protect us against the drivers of mechanical vehicles.</p> <p>So the law actually already covers the offence. What is not covered is riding a track bike on the road without a front brake. If a car is driven asaweapon t is possible to get a higher custodial sentence than two years. How often this happens, I do not know.</p> <p>I am happy with parity as then drivers will be forced to justify their use of the road.? Might pave the way for presumed liability? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261276 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 17:07:23 +0000 crowriver 261276@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"the law (mostly) has the appropriate tools to deal with bad driving / killing already."</p> <p>Does it? I'd like to see the evidence in support of that claim. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261275 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 17:05:41 +0000 crowriver 261275@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"The problem is, perception is reality."</p> <p>Baudrillard would have said the problem is that we can no longer distinguish the real from the hyperreal, or in layman's terms we make no meaningful distinction between our lived reality and the representations of reality from the media landscape that surrounds us.</p> <p>Which is almost the same as what you said, but not quite. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261274 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 16:51:22 +0000 jonty 261274@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Child abduction and murder is a pretty rare event, even rarer than cyclists killing people on the roads or pavements"</p> <p>Is this definitely true? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261273 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 16:40:31 +0000 barnton-to-town 261273@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@baldcyclist</p> <p>" If the only tool you have to deal with those that do wrong is 'wanton or furious driving' then clearly this needs to be fixed."</p> <p>Why fixed? In what way did it not work in this particular case? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261260 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 12:41:50 +0000 Baldcyclist 261260@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This is a good thing. If the only tool you have to deal with those that do wrong is 'wanton or furious driving' then clearly this needs to be fixed.</p> <p>Because the risk of something bad happening is low, doesn't mean there shouldn't be means to deal with it when it does happen. Child abduction and murder is a pretty rare event, even rarer than cyclists killing people on the roads or pavements, but still we charge the perpetrators and lock them up when it happens.</p> <p>And comparing with driving offenses isn't particularly helpful either, because the law (mostly) has the appropriate tools to deal with bad driving / killing already.</p> <p>There is a different (and valid) argument about whether those tools are being used appropriately, but to question whether there should be tools available to deal with cycling wrongdoing at all seems futile. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261249 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 10:51:58 +0000 chdot 261249@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"PS All this stuff is backed by findings in behavioural economics."</p> <p>No doubt, but the politics of nudge went out with D. Cameron. </p> <p>"The problem is, perception is reality."</p> <p>And political perception is that 'everyone hates (lawbreaking) cyclists' so, SOMETHING MUST BE DONE. </p> <p>Likely outcome notalot. </p> <p>Less likely outcome serious look at laws affecting all road users - and sentencing (and more consistency with it). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261247 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 10:33:30 +0000 gibbo 261247@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>This is all over BBC radio news this morning.</em></p> <p>The problem is, perception is reality.</p> <p>It's the same thing with immigrants: The stories that get covered are almost all negative. </p> <p>(Mainly because negative stories get covered, everyday life doesn't.) </p> <p>So the picture gets skewed and people start thinking "immigrants are X" or "immigrants do X."</p> <p>When the government says, "We have to look into what we should charge cyclists with when they kill people," the message people hear is, "Cyclists kill people and they get away with it."</p> <p>And, because that's the message, when people see stories about cyclists, they're preconditioned to see those two things happen.</p> <p>But, if the government had said, </p> <p>"This is an isolated case and cyclists only cause around 0.5% of pedestrian deaths. And this one guy was properly sentenced, so we don't need any new laws." </p> <p>Then the messages that would have been reinforced would be that </p> <p>(A) You have almost nothing to fear from cyclists.</p> <p>(B) Cyclists are properly punished when they cause harm.</p> <p>And, if that was the message, when people saw stories about cyclists, they'd be preconditioned to see those two things happen.</p> <p>PS All this stuff is backed by findings in behavioural economics. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261244 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 10:22:23 +0000 neddie 261244@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A very good blog and balanced viewpoint from the Secret Barrister:</p> <p><a href="https://thesecretbarrister.com/2017/09/20/some-thoughts-on-charlie-alliston-and-death-on-the-roads/" rel="nofollow">https://thesecretbarrister.com/2017/09/20/some-thoughts-on-charlie-alliston-and-death-on-the-roads/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261241 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 10:13:30 +0000 crowriver 261241@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This is all over BBC radio news this morning. No mention of any similar "review" for deaths caused by motor vehicles, despite the large number of casualties every week. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261234 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 09:53:00 +0000 gibbo 261234@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@stickman</p> <p><em>"The government is launching a review into whether a new law is needed to tackle dangerous cycling." </em></p> <p>This could turn out to be a good thing because it would set standards that can then be turned around and used on drivers.</p> <p>As for the cyclist who was convicted, IMO it was all about his decision to ride a bike without brakes. </p> <p>That decision was a decision to endanger others.</p> <p>Take that out of the story and I don't think he even gets charged. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=5#post-261224 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:28:40 +0000 steveo 261224@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Lets hope that like most government reviews this is code for kicked into the long grass. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=4#post-261221 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 07:43:33 +0000 Stickman 261221@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41337440" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41337440</a></p> <p>"The government is launching a review into whether a new law is needed to tackle dangerous cycling." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=4#post-261220 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 00:36:41 +0000 chdot 261220@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/lbc-executes-sting-operation-on-london-s-fixie-centred-bike-shops/021877" rel="nofollow">http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/lbc-executes-sting-operation-on-london-s-fixie-centred-bike-shops/021877</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=4#post-260966 Mon, 18 Sep 2017 19:07:33 +0000 minus six 260966@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>straw man argument, stiltskin.</p> <p>what i did was criticise the words of the judge, by declaring it to be the voice of public opinion.</p> <p>you leapt on that. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=4#post-260965 Mon, 18 Sep 2017 19:02:40 +0000 stiltskin 260965@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Like every other bit of whatabouterry on the internet, that has no bearing on whether the sentnence in Charlie's case is appropriate. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=4#post-260961 Mon, 18 Sep 2017 18:52:52 +0000 minus six 260961@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>au contraire, its the court that makes emotional decisions.</p> <p>take for example, that in an adjacent courtroom on the same day/time as the Alliston trial:</p> <p><em>22 year old Wells was riding her motorbike at 44 mph in a 30 mph area "weaving in and out of traffic", overtaking a lorry and undertaking a learner driver moments before hitting and killing 80 year-old Ian Rose as he got off a bus. Ms Wells had noticed a speed camera and checked her dashboard in a way which distracted her at the moment of collision.</p> <p>Wells was given a suspended sentence, with the judge pointing out that she had shown remorse, was aware that she taken a life ("a fact you will have to live with for the rest of your life") and that it was "clear that you are a sympathetic and compassionate young woman".</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=4#post-260959 Mon, 18 Sep 2017 18:43:31 +0000 stiltskin 260959@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Martin Porter, like some others I could mention, has allowed emotion to get in the way of accuracy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=4#post-260958 Mon, 18 Sep 2017 18:32:00 +0000 minus six 260958@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"the prosecution case was that Alliston was 6.53 metres away when Mrs Briggs stepped out"</p> <p>only sounds like a couple of seconds max </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=4#post-260957 Mon, 18 Sep 2017 18:23:18 +0000 Frenchy 260957@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>i'm not sure how much more time that actually is.</em><br /> 18mph is 8m/s. So:</p> <p>3.8s at 18mph is 30m.<br /> 6m at 18mph is 0.75s. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=4#post-260956 Mon, 18 Sep 2017 18:23:05 +0000 stiltskin 260956@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote>i'm not sure how much more time that actually is.</blockquote><br /> 18mph = 8 metres per second.<br /> I would say do the maths, but he had slowed to between 10 &amp; 14mph when he smacked into her which complicates the issue.<br /> Still plenty of time, even if you ignore that as a cyclist you should be pretty good at anticipating when someone is about to step out into the road, so saying that he only had 3.8 seconds to do something is possibly being generous. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18026&page=4#post-260954 Mon, 18 Sep 2017 18:10:02 +0000 gembo 260954@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Always looked like a custodial as he showed little or no remorse, tweeting he was sorry but it was the woman's fault, IIRC. Whereas the double cyclist killer continuously expressed remorse and was given 300 hours.</p> <p>The husband points out that just because something is rare or unlikely to happen does not mean there should be no remedy.</p> <p>One major issue for us of course is that there is a remedy for drivers who kill but it doesn't happen. </p> <p>All tricky moral dilemmas and needs careful thought and consideration not knee jerk reactions.</p> <p>That is my 2p </p>