http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Setted streets consultation en Thu, 18 Jun 2026 09:48:57 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139&page=2#post-263282 Thu, 12 Oct 2017 20:04:23 +0000 wee folding bike 263282@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Rosie, </p> <p>The paper the Hootsmon based that piece on is here:</p> <p><a href="http://www.starconference.org.uk/star/2017/Taylor.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.starconference.org.uk/star/2017/Taylor.pdf</a></p> <p>The sample size is one. </p> <p>In the paper it says this:</p> <p>"The present study surveyed 2.505 km of pavement surface. This represents a sample of 1.12% of the overall routes available. The total survey time elapsed was 520.63 seconds."</p> <p>Leaving aside the spurious accuracy and the lack of replication the paper is based on a mile and half of cycling which took eight and half minutes. I wouldn't let a Nat 5 kid away with that.</p> <p>In the conclusion it admits that the sample size is small, it could hardly be smaller. If I was trying to be fair to the author I'd say it's more about the possibility of collecting data. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-263268 Thu, 12 Oct 2017 18:05:10 +0000 Rob 263268@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I would love to know the reasoning behind the varied surface of Coburg Street/Sandport Place. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-263263 Thu, 12 Oct 2017 16:06:11 +0000 I were right about that saddle 263263@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>anyone who has walked in The Cuillin will know, has the adhesive qualities of Teflon.</em></p> <p>It was the razor-sharp edges of the gabro scree that struck me there. Like walking through a pile of knives. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-263251 Thu, 12 Oct 2017 14:02:43 +0000 wingpig 263251@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Whilst motor vehicles with big springs and low-pressure tyres can rumble over them at normal speed I suggested that the uneven surface might have an effect on their stopping distance, particularly in the wet, as a consideration to be borne with respect to closing some settled streets to motor vehicles. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-263249 Thu, 12 Oct 2017 13:45:50 +0000 kaputnik 263249@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I was reading up something about buses and Easter Road recently and was interested to read that it was asphalted at some point in the early-mid 20th century, only to be re-laid with setts in 1955, making it the last major road in Scotland to be laid with setts apparently. It was then asphalted again in the mid 1980s when much of Leith was tarmacced over. I seem to recall in the mid 1990s there was a bit of a sett revival as part of attempts to improve streets (planting of trees and placing ornamental ironmongery around Dalmeny / Iona Streets and their side streets) and they began creeping back in, either laid as ornamental rumble strips or some streets had the surfaces recovered by scraping the tarmac off the top).</p> <p>Dalmeny Street has regular oblong setts at one end and "cubes" towards the middle, before returning to tarmac at the Easter Road end.</p> <p>There's a council document here listing setted streets and also notes about the state of the surface here;</p> <p><a href="http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/50112/item_76_-_setted_streets_maintenance" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/50112/item_76_-_setted_streets_maintenance</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-263246 Thu, 12 Oct 2017 13:31:12 +0000 cb 263246@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It was interesting to read in ih's linked doc that some of the setts are made of basalt which, for anyone who has walked in The Cuillin will know, has the adhesive qualities of Teflon. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-263240 Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:53:02 +0000 kaputnik 263240@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I did make a comment about the visual amenity of setted streets in the World Heritage and Local Conservation areas being totally ruined by the volumes of 21st century motor cars dumped on them.</p> <p>I also observed that in some areas of town, streets were originally laid with wooden setts but we aren't agitating to go back to those so why are we considering 18th century road surfaces in a 21st century city?</p> <p>Noted that if you watch cyclists going up the Royal Mile they often do so in the stone gutter channel as it provides a relatively smooth ride. I suggested that where setts are kept because of (say) World Heritage Zone requirements that they need to be laid and maintained to a consistently high manner and consideration should be given to tarmacked sections towards the edges as a sanctuary for cycling (or better still, proper segregated cycle routes).</p> <p>Observed that setted streets have the effect of cutting cyclists' speed by about 25-75% (depending on surface quality), while motor cars can rumble over then unimpeded at 30mph in a 20mph zone. In parts of Dalmeny/Iona/Albert streets which are on our nursery run we can barely keep above walking speed and are all over the surface trying to pick a safe route, while the traffic between Leith Walk and Easter Road zooms past with gay abandon. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-263238 Thu, 12 Oct 2017 12:39:16 +0000 PS 263238@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Cutting cobbles in half is perhaps nit the best idea. A sett needs to be at least 6" deep to provide the vertical faces that will lock against the abutting setts and not rock or loosen, under passing traffic.</em></p> <p>Presumably we don't need 2x the number of setts, so all you would need to do is slice off the curved top bit?</p> <p>Of course, it all comes down to the issue of heavy traffic use. Keep buses off the bits that cyclists use (say through the radical idea of perhaps segregating a bit of street for bikes) and cyclists gain from a smoother ride, on a surface that maintains its integrity, plus they don't have to spend their time worrying about other traffic and can concentrate on negotiating the more "interesting" surface. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-263174 Wed, 11 Oct 2017 22:13:34 +0000 Tulyar 263174@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Cutting cobbles in half is perhaps nit the best idea. A sett needs to be at least 6" deep to provide the vertical faces that will lock against the abutting setts and not rock or loosen, under passing traffic.</p> <p>In some areas there may be a case to use 'concrete' or reconstituted stone blocks which can be mass produced at lower cost than traditional stone. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-263173 Wed, 11 Oct 2017 22:08:07 +0000 Rosie 263173@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@ih - Thanks for the link to Setts in the City. I don't suppose I'll read every word but the pictures are great. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-263172 Wed, 11 Oct 2017 22:05:44 +0000 Rosie 263172@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Spokes Speaks:-</p> <p>• Flat-topped, skid-resistant and close-laid setts as at the junction of High Street and George IV Bridge.<br /> • We note a Bristol experiment where round-topped setts are sliced in half and re-laid, flat-side up, “to improve the surface for pedestrians, cyclists, wheelchair users, people suffering from arthritis and many others.” That Council has a vision “to improve road surfaces across the city in order to make Bristol more attractive to walk and cycle.” We understand the experiment was successful and is to be extended.<br /> • Asphalt surfacing The ideal surface for cycling or walking – smooth, cost-effective to install and very cheap to maintain as compared to setted surfaces.<br /> • Physically segregated cycleroutes with smooth surfacing, asphalt or flat slabs – with special attention to ensure a flat surface remains at junctions and other road crossings<br /> • Smooth strips (usually slabbed) through setted areas, as for example through the cobbled area of Linlithgow High Street, or (unintentionally) the smooth drainage channels on the High Street near St Giles. However, we stress that this solution is less satisfactory than the earlier bullet points – cars may park on the strips (even with double yellows!); you can be forced out of the strip by traffic pressures; and unless the strip is wide you have to keep some attention on the road surface to remain within the strip.<br /> • For pedestrian issues, similar solutions to the above can also be implemented.<br /> • Where setts (of whatever type) are still used, particularly in heritage areas, such streets should wherever possible be pedestrianised (with cycle exemption). Road safety will be improved (although if the setts are round-topped the health risks and serious discomfort remain), historic and cultural value will be enhanced and, by removing heavy vehicles, maintenance costs will be greatly reduced.</p> <p><a href="http://www.spokes.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/1710-CEC-Setts-consultation-FINAL-Spokes-response.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.spokes.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/1710-CEC-Setts-consultation-FINAL-Spokes-response.pdf</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-263038 Tue, 10 Oct 2017 17:28:08 +0000 mgj 263038@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>As someone who lives on a setted street, rebuilt at great cost 10 years ago, I can only say GET RID OF THEM NOW. At least on a tarmac road maintained to CEC standards there is usually some sort of flat path that doesn't jar your arms and wrists while encouraging students to ride their old road bikes on the pavement. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-262979 Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:17:07 +0000 fimm 262979@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Bump. Done. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-262934 Mon, 09 Oct 2017 13:53:55 +0000 neddie 262934@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>nedd1e_h's submission in the general comments box:</p> <p><em>Motor vehicles should be banned from all setted streets. This would have the following benefits:</p> <p>1. The damage caused by heavy vehicles passing over the setts will be very much reduced and maintenance costs (which will already be high for setts) will be much lower.<br /> 2. The historic and cultural value of setted streets will be best preserved without the presence of multiple lanes of moving and stationary multi-coloured vehicles.<br /> 3. Removing motor traffic will assist in implementing the proposed low-emissions zones (LEZs).<br /> 4. Road safety will be improved as pedestrians and cyclists will be able to focus on the road surface instead of having aggressive motors bearing down on them.</em></p> <p>Don't forget: <strong>Closes Wed 11th Oct</strong> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-262869 Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:48:16 +0000 Ed1 262869@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>When I had my flat handle bar hybrid I had to stop half way to Galashiels every time I rode sometimes twice because of the vibration on arms and hands. I find with my tourer never have this think its because of the drop bars although the 525 steel frame may help also. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-262866 Sun, 08 Oct 2017 11:36:10 +0000 I were right about that saddle 262866@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.sram.com/rockshox/products/paragon-gold-rl">This</a> transformed my experience of Edinburgh's roads. I commend it to the house. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-262865 Sun, 08 Oct 2017 11:08:07 +0000 Rosie 262865@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Uneven surfaces damage your nerves:-</p> <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/cyclists-risk-nerve-damage-from-uneven-street-surfaces-1-4580875" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/cyclists-risk-nerve-damage-from-uneven-street-surfaces-1-4580875</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-262861 Sun, 08 Oct 2017 07:35:14 +0000 gembo 262861@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Everyone should reads the document linked above. If it helps it is called Setts in the City.</p> <p>It is quite long but not as long as Bladerunner 2049 </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-262859 Sat, 07 Oct 2017 22:42:30 +0000 acsimpson 262859@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@ih,</p> <p>Wow, you are right that I didn't know that I wanted to know that but now that I know that I could know that I want to find the time to read that so that I do know that.</p> <p>I've answered the consultation. It's relatively quick with only a couple of open questions. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-262852 Sat, 07 Oct 2017 18:33:08 +0000 ih 262852@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I always find this 'more-than-thought-you-wanted-to-know-about-Edinburgh-setts' document very interesting, plus some good archive photographs including Victorian tricycles. </p> <p><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&amp;source=web&amp;rct=j&amp;url=https://www.ewht.org.uk/uploads/downloads/Setts%2520in%2520the%2520City%2520Full%2520Text,%25202%2520Nov%252004.pdf&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiX5t_k8d7WAhXDK8AKHSZuBNgQFggkMAA&amp;usg=AOvVaw3m-2ODuXBD5yP7ROjSKlma" rel="nofollow">https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&amp;source=web&amp;rct=j&amp;url=https://www.ewht.org.uk/uploads/downloads/Setts%2520in%2520the%2520City%2520Full%2520Text,%25202%2520Nov%252004.pdf&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiX5t_k8d7WAhXDK8AKHSZuBNgQFggkMAA&amp;usg=AOvVaw3m-2ODuXBD5yP7ROjSKlma</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-262846 Sat, 07 Oct 2017 13:18:03 +0000 neddie 262846@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Closes Wed 11th. Don’t forget to fill it in... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-260816 Mon, 18 Sep 2017 08:52:48 +0000 Tulyar 260816@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Properly laid flat top setts, laid on a puddle clay/cold tar bed, with a tight bond, with tar sealed joints, was the top quality system used for city streets between 1750's and 1850's </p> <p>If modern utility operator's contractors are not allowed to open the road up and reinstate it with no (strong) supervision, or enforcement of repair to the same standards, you kiss goodbye to a road which requires minimal attention for at least 160 years under the most punishing of heavy traffic.</p> <p>The signs are blatantly obvious - even where tarmac has been laid over a setted street. The load-spreading setts are ripped out and binned, along with the bed of puddle clay or cold tar on which they are laid. Type 1 or Type 2 graded stone is tipped in to the hole with no filter membrane or similar treatment, wit the with loadings that stone migrates into the clay or surrounding weaker subgrade with any water present leaching away the finer material or poaching through load cycles and leaving the 'hole' imprint as a sinking section of the road pavement.</p> <p>Older forumites might recall the much higher quality of setts on Cockburn Street (my regular 2-3 minute sprint to Waverley for trains in the 1970's). The relaying was a total screw-up using inappropriate NON flat top setts laid with a looser bond, leaving you with a teeth chattering, joint pounding ride with pressure on the arms from braking. An ironic twist that this is potentially a Cockburn Association failure, through not reacting to the refurbishment work using the WRONG road surfacing material, and totally changing the road detail.</p> <p>The lack of proper delivery on 'repairs' is clearly aparent when you can pick-out the areas in a road (in Glasgow especially - but I have less detailed knowledge of Edinburgh) where tram rails and tie bars were taken out, or the stronger tram track slab sits centrally, with the road edges sinking.</p> <p>A well built setted or cobbled street has 1-3 courses running along the street at the kerb edge, laid approx 1 cm below the main carriageway, and these form a self clearing gulley (especially when not blocked by parked car tyres) and the slightest shower sees those gulleys working effectively.</p> <p>Please deprecate the cheap and easy get outs of very loose laid stones with the big joints filed with brushed in 'dry mix' or laid on a bed that rapidly sinks at weak spots - do they not use modern filter membrane equivalents of sheep dag and branders (or just rock on branders as Telford used on canals and causeways - 200 years old and still sound)</p> <p>A further detail seen on Applecross Street Glasgow and Stirling Old Bridge in one form (long stone wheel tracks on the uphill side to make cart haulage led effort) or the cast kerbs and channels still found in some old vennels and back lanes - far more robust than modern kerbs and designed to guide the cart wheels as well as provide a smoother running surface - the original plateways predating the railway adaptation of this system, and its refinement.</p> <p>Well laid self clearing gulleys, with long flat stones, AND with either kerb face drainage or continuous edge slot drainage also provide a smooth riding surface - as those riding along the High Street between the Bridges may have noticed.</p> <p>Another detail where the first renovation messed up was the High Street - North Bridge cross-roads. Lok at any original setted or cobbled junction and you will not see the bond (courses) laid parallel to the direction of traffic, but at an angle. The forces exerted by the traffic, if set along the bond with no offset joints to resist movement = rapid deterioration. Options can include herringbone patterns or triangular blocks of surfacing set at an angle to the main traffic flows </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-260738 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:45:31 +0000 PS 260738@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>As seen in Freiburg: a path of flat-topped setts (presumably normal ones cut in half to give a smooth surface) at pedestrian crossing points for wheelchair/buggy users etc, and on cycle lanes. Cockburners happy, active travellers happy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-260681 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 07:31:30 +0000 hunnymonster 260681@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Nice that the consultation is only for city residents. Those of us who live outside (but work &amp; visit) aren't welcome to comment it seems... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-260663 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 18:59:29 +0000 Rosie 260663@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@wingpig<br /> Good idea - anyone can draw up a hate list.</p> <p>Problem is, that as mishaps make the best stories, vicious setts are the ones you remember. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-260657 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 18:00:28 +0000 chdot 260657@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"One of the questions in the consultation refers to Waverley Bridge."</p> <p>Hah, not that long since it was re-modelled without any thought for cycle infrastructure! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-260641 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 16:04:25 +0000 Frenchy 260641@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>For interest, here's a map of streets in Edinburgh marked as having a "cobblestone" surface on Openstreetmap: <a href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/rJK" rel="nofollow">http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/rJK</a> </p> <p><em>Should we collate a quick list of setted streets which are perfectly pleasant to ride along on high-pressure narrow tyres, to be used as examples of good installation and maintenance? </em></p> <p>One of the questions in the consultation refers to Waverley Bridge. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-260640 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 15:56:11 +0000 fimm 260640@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I read this as "sett<strong>l</strong>ed streets" and wondered what a settled street was...<br /> Setts? Nuke 'em from orbit. I hate them. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-260639 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 15:50:17 +0000 wingpig 260639@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Should we collate a quick list of setted streets which are perfectly pleasant to ride along on high-pressure narrow tyres, to be used as examples of good installation and maintenance? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18139#post-260637 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 15:21:51 +0000 neddie 260637@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>My initial thoughts:</p> <p>I'd suggest banning motor vehicles from setted streets. This would have at least three benefits:</p> <p>1. The damage caused by heavy vehicles passing over them will be very much reduced and maintenance costs (which will already be high for setts) will be much lower.</p> <p>2. The historic and cultural value of setted streets will be best preserved without the presence of multiple lanes of moving and stationary multi-coloured vehicles.</p> <p>3. It will assist in the implementation of the proposed low-emission zones (LEZs). </p>