http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Zhi Min Soh - FAI report? en Tue, 19 May 2026 15:50:55 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-303756 Mon, 25 Mar 2019 22:47:13 +0000 Snowy 303756@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Indeed. Long grass technique. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-303753 Mon, 25 Mar 2019 20:59:57 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur 303753@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This <a href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-47693199">single vehicle/occupant crash</a> last year is worth an FAI but the Shandwick Place incident isn't (yet)? The law truly is a complete ass. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287554 Tue, 24 Jul 2018 15:48:29 +0000 I were right about that saddle 287554@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>James Wölffe is engaged in the Supreme Court at the minute. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287546 Tue, 24 Jul 2018 14:46:08 +0000 ih 287546@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@acsimpson Indeed, we know nothing about this tragedy other than the minibus caused the final fatal injury, but what caused that to happen? It is likely from Frenchy's post that the police looked at it and persuaded themselves that there was no careless or dangerous driving, and passed it on to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal (COPFS) to decide what to do.</p> <p>The unknown causes are the reasons an FAI is essential. I posted on another thread that I asked the COPFS what status the inquiry was in, but was basically stonewalled.</p> <p>Three key people are responsible for the COPFS, the Minister is the Lord Advocate, James Wölffe QC; he is assisted by the Solicitor General, Alison di Rollo; the operational head of the COPFS is the Crown Agent, David Harvie.</p> <p>Can I suggest that we contact these three to urge them to hold an FAI as expeditiously as possible. I will post here some points for an email, and if I can find them, their email addresses. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287532 Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:54:07 +0000 acsimpson 287532@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"Do we know the bus hit Ms Soh from behind?"</em></p> <p>I didn't think we knew anything with certainty about this, other than the most tragic part. As far as I'm aware even the involvement of tram tracks has had reasonable doubt cast on it up thread.</p> <p>Yet another reason a FAI is required. If nothing else it would bring the facts out into the open. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287520 Tue, 24 Jul 2018 10:43:18 +0000 I were right about that saddle 287520@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Do we know the bus hit Ms Soh from behind? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287517 Tue, 24 Jul 2018 10:00:20 +0000 EdinburghCycleCam 287517@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I also fail to see how it's possible to run over a cyclist from behind in any circumstances and get away completely blame-free.</p> <p>The driver might well have been leaving enough room for another car, but that's not enough room for a cyclist, and I would expect a so-called professional driver of all people to realise that. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287511 Tue, 24 Jul 2018 09:38:41 +0000 miak 287511@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Rabbie drivers pick up their new customers at the east end and spend their first few miles talking to their clients ...looking in their rear view mirrors to 'eye contact' their customers.. I refuse to believe that this wasn't dangerous driving.</p> <p>I have video of 10 July this year at the the same spot of a Rabbie's driver at that junction driving on and blocking the wrong side of the road to ensure he makes the lights. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287488 Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:52:06 +0000 Rosie 287488@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Whenever referring to Zhi Min Soh's death, you say "her wheel was probably caught in the tram tracks" as there hasn't been an inquiry with a definitive outcome. If she had been killed by eg falling masonry, wouldn't there have been an FAI to determine what caused her death? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287479 Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:27:52 +0000 I were right about that saddle 287479@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The delay in having an enquiry is incomprehensible. With the tram extension being designed the matter is urgent. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287473 Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:23:07 +0000 dougal 287473@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I don't know who is responsible for calling an inquiry but if it overlaps in any way with the people who would be held responsible/negligible for the dangerous infrastructure then I can see why it wouldn't happen. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287472 Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:03:21 +0000 ih 287472@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The minibus is not the issue. It does not surprise me that no criminal proceedings have been initiated. What does surprise and depress me is that the authorities don't consider an FAI necessary when the fatality occurred in an area where the road space for cycles was inadequate, where the road surface was littered with man-hole covers and tram tracks and there was little safety margin if a cyclist got into difficulty as Zhi Min Soh clearly did. An FAI is essential to identify problems with the road and to learn lessons for the tram extension and to improve safety at existing tram track hazards. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287469 Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:53:53 +0000 Ed1 287469@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I wondered if the cyclist had fallen in to another lane, if was behind would think would be able to stop. </p> <p>Stopping times are based on vehicle stopping if someone jumped out a car window they may land further back than a car could have stopped. Someone could fall of a bicycle and stop before the highway codes stopping distances. The stopping distance is 12 meters at 20 mph, a cyclists could stop quicker if came off. In reality a modern vehicle will stop much quicker than the highway codes distances. I am not sure the stopping is the same as the Separation Distance it would be 2 seconds or 17.9 meters if motorway 70 mph formula calculation applied adjusted to 20mph which does not. In slow heavy traffic lower separation distances. Possibly 2 car lengths at 20 mph which is 9 meters. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287468 Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:51:15 +0000 chdot 287468@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“How can a bus driver driving at 20mph or less not stop unless they were too close in the first place.”</p> <p>Indeed.</p> <p>I think that’s generally the legal assumption if someone runs their car into the back of one in front. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287467 Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:46:07 +0000 ih 287467@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Completely agree with @chdot here. The key issues to be investigated are whether the state of the road, and the tram tracks in any way contributed to the fatality, and whether the space available for cycling is adequate and safe at that point, even if the vehicles around are driving at the standard of the careful driver. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287465 Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:26:26 +0000 miak 287465@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>How can a bus driver driving at 20mph or less not stop unless they were too close in the first place. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287464 Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:48:55 +0000 chdot 287464@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Mmm. </p> <p>If driver not at fault, perhaps even more need for FAI - to look at road/tramtracks. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-287463 Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:17:32 +0000 Frenchy 287463@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Have been told, via an MSP, that a detailed investigation was carried out by the police/procurator fiscal. It was determined that the standard of driving did not fall below that of a careful driver, and so no criminal proceedings will take place.</p> <p>Whether there is a basis for an FAI is for the Lord Advocate to decide; an investigation "is ongoing and may take some considerable time." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-277374 Wed, 14 Mar 2018 14:18:07 +0000 chdot 277374@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>The work was triggered by the death of Malaysian student Zhi Min Soh, whose bike wheels became caught in tram tracks last May at the junction of Shandwick Place and Queensferry Street. </p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/cyclists-to-get-head-start-at-traffic-lights-on-edinburgh-tram-route-1-4705336" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/cyclists-to-get-head-start-at-traffic-lights-on-edinburgh-tram-route-1-4705336</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-276794 Tue, 06 Mar 2018 17:19:03 +0000 DdF 276794@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Tulyar<br /> Re an inquiry, see this...<br /> <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-40291883">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-40291883</a><br /> No idea what has happened subsequently or how long this sort of inquiry takes / is expected to take. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18439#post-268834 Tue, 05 Dec 2017 23:44:44 +0000 Tulyar 268834@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Has there been or will the be an FAI (equivalent of English Inquest) into fatal crash at Shandwick Place. It is identical in (too) many respects to the crash in Croydon on 12 October 2013, for which the inquest was held in November 2014, with the South London Coroner, making a call for a Regulation 28 report from Croydon Council, TfL and Tramlink with regard to 4 points to address for the prevention of future deaths (one of the key reasons for an inquest/FAI is to deliver actions that prevent another death through the same causes, and for road crashes especially at the same locations)</p> <p>The English Coroners' website has a transparent listing of all Regulation 28 requests and the linked responses, which have to be provided within 56 days. The Croydon Inquest (for Roger de Klerk) is now 3 years overdue, with no indication of the Coroner allowing any extension of the 56 day period.</p> <p>In both cases the victims were making a very shallow turn to the right across the tram tracks, when they were brought down by a loss of control when crossing the rails. As noted in previous posts I have identified 5 mechanisms for this, but have not been able to view the CCTV of the Croydon crash to establish which of those 5 factors played a role in putting the cyclist down on the road (this would be very useful given the dire condition of the tram track/road surfacing in that location and at least 2 current examples of where poor carriageway repair was clearly the factor causing loss of control and NOT the rails in the road - eg </p> <p><a href="https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/cyclist-calls-for-better-repairs-to-dangerous-potholes-near-sheffield-tram-tracks-1-8845256?fb_comment_id=fbc_1280651868707773_1281477461958547_1281477461958547#f29a44b078cc9da" rel="nofollow">https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/cyclist-calls-for-better-repairs-to-dangerous-potholes-near-sheffield-tram-tracks-1-8845256?fb_comment_id=fbc_1280651868707773_1281477461958547_1281477461958547#f29a44b078cc9da</a></p> <p>One clear detail is that the fatal injuries were not caused by the fall but by the bus driver behind driving over the victims by failing to stop in time. This detail seems to be a common factor in HGV and bus crashes, and an 8-10Ton axle crushing a person - almost certainly fatal for head and torso but even the trauma of a badly smashed limb can kill.</p> <p>Can Coroners, who often rely of technical specialists to highlight relevant issues and lessons to be learned be encouraged to question the cultural acceptance that road deaths are inevitable, and seek answers to how the fatal injuries might have been avoided, or mitigated in a road death inquiry? </p>