http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Bus fare up 10p en Tue, 19 May 2026 19:36:38 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543&page=2#post-273434 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 22:33:58 +0000 toomanybikes 273434@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote><em>buses held up much more due to people travelling only 1 or 2 stops when they could walk.</blockquote></em></p> <p>Is surely an argument against ridacards and day tickets just as much as free buses. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543&page=2#post-273433 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 22:23:25 +0000 gibbo 273433@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@neddie_h</p> <p>Would we get these things?</p> <p><em>If buses were free this is what you'd get:<br /> - buses held up much more due to people travelling only 1 or 2 stops when they could walk.<br /> </em></p> <p>In most places, buses aren't so frequent that it's worth waiting for a one or two stop journey.</p> <p><em>- people sitting on buses all day, for the ride/warmth/WiFi/drunkeness.</em></p> <p>If they need warmth, good luck to them.</p> <p><em>- massive groups all trying to get on the bus at once after the football.</em></p> <p>Doesn't this already happen?</p> <p><em>- under-investment in buses</em></p> <p>I don't see the connection here. We wouldn't be cutting the budget, just changing who is paying for it.</p> <p>The point would be to change the value proposition of owning/using a car and tilting it towards bus use.</p> <p>A few small problems seems like a small price to pay. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543&page=2#post-273422 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:18:28 +0000 crowriver 273422@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Wait, isn't this one of the arguments made against socialised medicine?"</p> <p>The comparison doesn't really hold up, as with healthcare an expert (doctor/nurse, etc.) decides what you will receive, based on need. Also, for non-emergency care, there's de facto rationing: waiting lists are effectively that. Also, the NHS does not provide certain kinds of medical care (e.g. most kinds of cosmetic surgery).</p> <p>That's not to say some people don't overuse or abuse the system, just that there are limits placed on the capability of individual users to do so.</p> <p>With free public transport, we'd likely end up with a tragedy of the commons effect.<br /> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543&page=2#post-273421 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:12:10 +0000 neddie 273421@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It is perfectly possible to create a socialised health care system, that everyone can access, that isn’t free at the point of use. (I’m not saying this should necessarily be done)</p> <p>However, the NHS in its current form is pretty broken - just recently I went to the GP &amp; they told me to go and get a scalpel and perform my own surgery.</p> <p>If money were to talk in healthcare, perhaps more would be spent on prevention? Just a thought </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543&page=2#post-273420 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 18:58:29 +0000 I were right about that saddle 273420@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@unhurt</p> <p>It's very clear that <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Scott,_10th_Duke_of_Buccleuch">Richard Scott</a>'s life is more valuable to society than yours, otherwise he wouldn't be so rich. Denying him priority in medical care is nothing but grievance and envy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273412 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 18:16:35 +0000 unhurt 273412@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Making a limited resource free at the point of use is a very bad idea.</em></p> <p>Wait, isn't this one of the arguments made against socialised medicine? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273400 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:57:58 +0000 steveo 273400@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I'm pretty sure the cost of a bus ticket is not a barrier to 99% of people for legitimate journeys.<br /> </em></p> <p>But its an extra £50+ a month on top of what they spend on the "necessary" car. </p> <p>If one could jump on a bus for two stops rather than driving, and people do drive rather than walk, then you do all kinds of cool stuff. Not just cut emissions but when you break the mind set of not walking beyond the driveway people might start taking discretionary exercise, maybe they think “actually I live on top a bus route I don’t need a car or at least the second one for the commute only is expensively reduntant”. Hell maybe if they’re not so stuck in the car mindset they’re no long so poor they need to spend time sitting on the bus to keep warm. And as for massive groups using the facilities… the horror, imagine football/rugby supporters using the bus rather than queues of cars driving from Gorgie/Murrayfield and surrounds on match day…. The horror!!! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273399 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:42:42 +0000 neddie 273399@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Making a limited resource free at the point of use is a very bad idea.</p> <p>As I've said before about roads being free at the point of use, the resource is not efficiently used and gets abused.</p> <p>If buses were free this is what you'd get:<br /> - buses held up much more due to people travelling only 1 or 2 stops when they could walk.<br /> - people sitting on buses all day, for the ride/warmth/WiFi/drunkeness.<br /> - massive groups all trying to get on the bus at once after the football.<br /> - under-investment in buses</p> <p>I'm pretty sure the cost of a bus ticket is not a barrier to 99% of people for legitimate journeys. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273394 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:05:59 +0000 Morningsider 273394@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>ejstubbs - part of the Transport Act 1985 is reserved, the bit dealing with Public Service Vehicle operator licensing. The rest isn't though, which means the Scottish Government could create a new regulatory framework for bus services in Scotland. There is a Transport Bill in the works and it will deal with buses, but I expect the proposals to be feeble and unfunded - meaning local authorities will not be able to change much in practice. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273393 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:04:09 +0000 gibbo 273393@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@IWRATS</p> <p><em>Operating costs of £140 million in 2016....add that into a million people's council tax bills each year weighted to those closest to bus routes and in the poshest houses and make the buses free?</em></p> <p>Back in the 1980s, I remember hearing someone suggest public transport should be free.</p> <p>The more I've thought about it, the more it makes sense.</p> <p>But, right now, we subsidise cars - by not charging them enough money for the problems they create. </p> <p>And, given the council's - and Scot Gov's - stated stances on pollution, active travel, congestion, climate change etc, that makes no sense.</p> <p>(Unless you think they're a bunch of liars who are merely paying lip-service.)</p> <p>But fully subsidised buses within the city <em>would</em> be compatible with their position. </p> <p>PS Another advantage of free buses would be a reduction in bus bunching. After all, if you could just jump on and off buses, would you need 4 buses going from Tollcross to Leith Walk? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273389 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:28:08 +0000 ejstubbs 273389@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Isn't Transport a devolved responsibility now, so Scotland could legislate to replace the 1985 act? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273388 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:27:18 +0000 I were right about that saddle 273388@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>who knows what the Lords will do</em></p> <p>That would be a temporal....<em>spiritual</em> matter!</p> <p>I think <a href="https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0079/18079.pdf">sections 7.1 and 7.5 together</a> give ministers the power to amend the EU Withrawal Bill itself once passed. So if they need more power they can just grant it to themselves. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273387 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:25:23 +0000 crowriver 273387@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"But - that said, £1.70 from Clermston to Seton Sands or similar length journeys is not bad at all"</p> <p>More like a total bargain.</p> <p>I was aghast to hear a sales pitch type announcement from the train conductor while approaching Leuchars yesterday. Tickets for bus transfer to St Andrews available from him, apparently. The price? £3.00 one way, £5.40 open return. That's for a journey of around 8km, which takes the bus just 11 minutes to make. Ker-ching! Stagecoach laughing all the way to the bank.</p> <p>To think you can ride the bus all the way from Balerno to Wallyford, which is 20-odd kilometres, for about half the price of the Fife journey. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273385 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:16:12 +0000 Morningsider 273385@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ed1 - whenever you see "Secretary of State" in an older act that deals with a devolved issue then it is taken to mean "Scottish Ministers". You are right, I can't see any reason why Scottish Ministers couldn't do what you suggest - although they wouldn't. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273384 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:13:19 +0000 Morningsider 273384@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>IWRATS - debatable, any such regulations have to deal with a deficiency in legislation arising from withdrawal from the EU. Would be a stretch to apply that to the Transport Act 1985. Although, it's all still to play for - who knows what the Lords will do. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273383 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:10:44 +0000 Ed1 273383@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Oh yes I now see the act limited free travel never looked at before , what if secretary of state agreed not sure who could introduce a class "Edinburgh people" and then get secretary to agree</p> <p>section 93 7 f (f)</p> <p>"such other classes of persons as the Secretary of State may by order specify." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273382 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:02:40 +0000 I were right about that saddle 273382@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Morningsider</p> <p>You are so out of touch, daddy-o. It will soon be possible for David Mundell to amend the Transport Act 1985 by Order in Council so that it no longer applies in Edinburgh. Almost as if he and his colleagues were benign dictators.</p> <p>Parliament will soon no longer be an impediment to our wellbeing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273381 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:02:09 +0000 Morningsider 273381@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ed1 - concessionary travel on the tram for Edinburgh residents aged 60+ is provided under Section 93 of the Transport Act 1985, which limits local concessionary fares schemes to those aged 60+, under 16, between 16 and 18 and in education, blind and disabled people. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273378 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:52:31 +0000 Ed1 273378@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Over 60s living in Edinburgh get free travel on the tram the council pays for this. This is not covered by the free bus travel. </p> <p>What if the council was to offer free at point of use bus travel but the bus company paid per passenger like the bus concession for over 60s. Although a subsidies bus may be deemed an uncompetitive practice, free at point of use where council paid may be within the rules as this would not eliminate competition, if other providers could also offer services and receive the payments.<br /> The over 60 concession free bus travel is permitted providers other that one can utilise the scheme. Free travel may work like over 60s concession </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273376 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:42:52 +0000 unhurt 273376@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm changing my benign dictator non-voting intentions.</p> <p>@steveo for the Iron Throne! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273375 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:38:17 +0000 steveo 273375@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Even if the Council wanted to provide free buses, it couldn't.</em></p> <p>pah, trifling details.</p> <p>Personally I'd have a local public transport subsidy baked into "road tax" if all local buses were free at point of use then the financial equation of running two cars or "well I've got the car I might was well use it" would be a lot less clear cut. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273374 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:32:36 +0000 Morningsider 273374@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The Transport Act 1985 (introduced by you-know-who) prevents local authorities from subsidising bus services that can be provided on a commercial basis, which is pretty much every bus route in Edinburgh. Even if the Council wanted to provide free buses, it couldn't. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273373 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:18:23 +0000 Rosie 273373@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Someone told me that the 22 route is the most profitable in Europe. I'm ready to believe it. Frequent and full.</p> <p>The buses are good value.</p> <p>Locals not paying, tourists paying as in some museums might work but would need an ID system for that. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273372 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:11:13 +0000 I were right about that saddle 273372@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@everyone</p> <p>Ah yeah, got to have a tourist and business tax element too.</p> <p>@Murun Buchstansanger</p> <p>There will be no vote.</p> <p>@steveo</p> <p>Yup I knocked dividend off revenue to estimate operating costs. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273370 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:54:24 +0000 steveo 273370@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Chuck in a tourist tax to cover their share. The number of times I've been walking somewhere and a bus approaches a stop at the same time as I but I have no change. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273369 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:37:31 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur 273369@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"add that into a million people's council tax bills each year weighted to those closest to bus routes and in the poshest houses and make the buses free"</p> <p>Riiiight, we'll just subsidise tourism even more than we do already, shall we? I already feel like I live in a theme park for most of the year.</p> <p>EDIT: Council tax in Edinburgh 'only' raises £266m pa, so you would be talking a 50% across the board CT increase, or worse. You've lost my vote as Benign Dictator, iwrats. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273368 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:35:32 +0000 steveo 273368@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Doesn't LB return a profit to the council though? Having said that adding £50 a year to the council tax for a free a point of use bus service would be excellent. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273367 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:27:25 +0000 I were right about that saddle 273367@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Operating costs of £140 million in 2016....add that into a million people's council tax bills each year weighted to those closest to bus routes and in the poshest houses and make the buses free? </p> <p>Would eliminate cash-handling costs too. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273366 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:11:23 +0000 cb 273366@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"or, instead of 3, get moving with contactless (which I do believe will happen one day)"</em></p> <p>It's already there on Airlink:</p> <p><a href="https://lothianbuses.co.uk/tickets/contactless-faq">https://lothianbuses.co.uk/tickets/contactless-faq</a></p> <p>"<br /> When will contactless be available on other Lothian Buses services?</p> <p>Contactless payment is currently only available on Airlink service 100 (including the N100 night service). We’ll share updates on its availability on our other services on our website, on Twitter and on Facebook.<br /> " </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18543#post-273348 Mon, 22 Jan 2018 22:03:33 +0000 gembo 273348@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Malta has the feature in Edinburgh87 in Point1. Maybe one euro gets a ticket that you can use multiple times within two hours. </p>