http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Macho biking en Sun, 31 May 2026 14:04:49 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-288353 Sat, 04 Aug 2018 19:18:48 +0000 sallyhinch 288353@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A fresh twist on this discussion, from one of the Adventure Syndicate themselves </p> <p>"It turns out that many men find The Adventure Syndicate’s model of collaboration and encouragement far more appealing. By giving young boys strong female role models to look up to, who don’t necessarily espouse the more ‘traditional’ adventurous values, we can help to promote a better way of adventuring, and of being."</p> <p><a href="http://theadventuresyndicate.com/blog/2018/6/28/who-needs-role-models-laura-moss" rel="nofollow">http://theadventuresyndicate.com/blog/2018/6/28/who-needs-role-models-laura-moss</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-280261 Sun, 15 Apr 2018 17:30:18 +0000 the canuck 280261@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>also, could i just set up a little cult of sally hinch, for putting some of my thoughts into clearer words than i have at the moment? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-280260 Sun, 15 Apr 2018 17:27:34 +0000 the canuck 280260@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>i'm sure there are a lot of people in the so-called liberal west who agree with that comment, but then it comes from a country where a cleric was able to say that driving cars could cause reproductive problems for women, and he wasn't immediately drowned out in laughter. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-280109 Thu, 12 Apr 2018 17:19:54 +0000 stiltskin 280109@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-43740203" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-43740203</a><br /> A Twitter user commented: "I am not a religious cleric but a woman can be seductive and getting on a bicycle reveals all her attractive parts to men. If she wants to ride a bike she must do that by herself and not in public nor in front of people." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-280047 Thu, 12 Apr 2018 08:21:53 +0000 I were right about that saddle 280047@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Delusions of Gender and the more recent Testosterone Rex are both worth a read.</em></p> <p>For the titles if nothing else. Very clever. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-280042 Thu, 12 Apr 2018 00:23:27 +0000 unhurt 280042@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Also, a lot of yes to Cordelia Fine. And I have heard very good things about How Not To Be A Boy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-280041 Thu, 12 Apr 2018 00:21:40 +0000 unhurt 280041@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>As a society we CLEARLY <em>value the masculine more than the feminine, so it doesn't feel belittling when people assume you can fix a bike and run up a mountain but that you'd rather wrestle a mountain lion and run through electrified mud than talk about your feelings or ask for directions. </em> - I am pretty sure this is the crux. As others have written a thousand times better - girls/women getting extra respect when they're "like" boys/men is no solution at all for this stuff. But it's a very real thing, that I struggle with every time I try to figure out what my own motivations are for doing a thing (n.b. may not necessarily be a bike or physical activity related thing). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-279974 Tue, 10 Apr 2018 20:35:58 +0000 minus six 279974@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I've been pondering for a while on how cycling has been framed by some as a means of demonstrating resistance to self-inflicted pain </em></p> <p>for me its about demonstrating resistance to servile and destructive domesticity via pampered climate controlled environments</p> <p>far less a gender issue, more one of determined stoic substance </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-279959 Tue, 10 Apr 2018 17:07:33 +0000 sallyhinch 279959@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Cordelia Fine is very good on the differences, if any, between the genders. Delusions of Gender and the more recent Testosterone Rex are both worth a read. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-279957 Tue, 10 Apr 2018 16:21:40 +0000 fimm 279957@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I don't think there's anything particular about cycling, is there? Some people are more agressive/competitive and some are less so. We see agressive/competitive behaviour as male/masculine but in fact both sexes/genders (I can never remember which is which) display such behaviours; however they may well be displayed in more men than women. (Edited to add: whether this is nature or nurture I don't know.)</p> <p>As a woman, I don't want to "womansplain" to men how they should be male - after all, we women object if men try and tell us how we should go about being female! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-279951 Tue, 10 Apr 2018 15:36:07 +0000 Cyclingmollie 279951@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I am increasingly convinced by the argument that men are trained to disregard what they feel.</em></p> <p>Robert Webb makes that point throughout his memoir "How Not to Be a Boy". Well worth a read. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-279939 Tue, 10 Apr 2018 14:25:22 +0000 I were right about that saddle 279939@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@sallyhinch</p> <p>Thank you for that wonderful post.</p> <p><em>I don't know whether men feel the same</em></p> <p>I am increasingly convinced by the argument that men are trained to disregard what they feel.</p> <p><em>Are you complaining about thread drift?</em></p> <p>Just a light touch on the tiller that the spinnaker might catch the wind. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-279911 Tue, 10 Apr 2018 11:15:14 +0000 Ed1 279911@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I suppose so </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-279898 Tue, 10 Apr 2018 09:27:25 +0000 amir 279898@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Nicely put sallyhinch </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-279897 Tue, 10 Apr 2018 09:23:47 +0000 sallyhinch 279897@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Are you complaining about thread drift? </p> <p>I think cycling can definitely help men gain an insight into what some women face <a href="https://accidentobizarro.wordpress.com/2014/04/04/harassment-its-a-bit-like-being-a-cyclist/" rel="nofollow">https://accidentobizarro.wordpress.com/2014/04/04/harassment-its-a-bit-like-being-a-cyclist/</a></p> <p>As to the original question, I haven't thought too much about it, but it seems to me that some men bring some of the macho qualities they bring to the rest of their lives out on the bike with them, and possibly some men compensate for their otherwise not-very-macho looking lives when cycling, which is far better than them doing it behind the wheel of an overpowered car. And some women overturn the assumption that they're sugar and spice and all things nice by going out and being competitive and generally awesome on the bike (as in the Adventure Syndicate) whereas others overturn the assumption that cycling is all about being suffering by going out on social rides and emphasising the cake side of things (and some do both).</p> <p>One thing I've noticed about myself (I can't speak for other women) is that I very much resent being put in any box that seems to be labelled feminine. Sometimes this is because the box doesn't fit, but sometimes it's because the box feels (or I assume is) undervalued. So I feel that I ought to be able to ride audaxes and put a Marathon Plus on with my teeth because the (possibly in my head) assumption is that as a woman I can't do either of those things, but I don't value as much the fact that I can turn a heel on a sock or use my facility with language to defuse a confrontation, because those are perceived to be feminine skills. I don't know whether men feel the same - or whether because a society we value the masculine more than the feminine, so it doesn't feel belittling when people assume you can fix a bike and run up a mountain but that you'd rather wrestle a mountain lion and run through electrified mud than talk about your feelings or ask for directions. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723&page=2#post-279895 Tue, 10 Apr 2018 08:45:06 +0000 I were right about that saddle 279895@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@sallyhinch</p> <p>But what of masculinity? Does our bicycle culture shine a light into maleness? That's what I was pondering, with some difficulty. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723#post-279894 Tue, 10 Apr 2018 08:31:56 +0000 sallyhinch 279894@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Sustrans did a very good roundup of what causes the gender gap in cycling - covers pretty much all the bases <a href="https://www.sustrans.org.uk/sites/default/files/file_content_type/exploring_gender_and_activetravel_paper_sustrans_2018.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.sustrans.org.uk/sites/default/files/file_content_type/exploring_gender_and_activetravel_paper_sustrans_2018.pdf</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723#post-279889 Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:31:15 +0000 unhurt 279889@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>electrified mud</em></p> <p>Have you been talking to my Spartan Racing acquaintances? Because the mud that shocks you seems to be the least of it...</p> <p>Weirdly my Iron Man completing tri- and du -athlon doiong friends is very UNmacho about it all. He is, however, a total stats nerd and loves to talk about the way his numbers change after epecially awful sounding training approaches. Also he's dead wee, so has had a lifetime of not fitting quite the "right" macho mould? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723#post-279888 Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:27:25 +0000 unhurt 279888@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@c30c60 <em>Many women learn at an early age that it's better not to attract attention outdoors - claiming your space on the road can go against years of ingrained learning.</em></p> <p>Oh yes. Men Shouting Obscenities At You From Cars: not just a cyling experience.</p> <p>That article is better than I hoped it would be (I have been disappointed in the past...) <em>[H]ow do you find your way in a world that cannot be mastered? How do you live a life in which all of us must eventually surrender and come to terms?</em> is a pretty key question for everyone, once you realise that yes, you too are going to get old and sick one day (if you're lucky!)</p> <p><em>I've been pondering for a while on how cycling has been framed by some as a means of demonstrating resistance to self-inflicted pain and of 'conquering' piles of rock that couldn't care less about being conquered. Of going further and faster than some notional or real rival and of risking all for an armour-plated breakneck dash on camera.</em></p> <p>Higher, colder, faster, stronger? Not just/only cycling: the present fetish for Extreme Challenges (and every year a new one to beat or do backwards) seems to be a 21st century response to the lack of new <em>places</em> to act out the explorer/discoverer's triumph (or at least attempt). And while women do it too, the history of that concept is pretty inextricable from cultural ideas of conquering &amp; masculinity, especially in western culture. </p> <p>And maybe CCE is ready for bell hooks after all?<br /> "The first act of violence that patriarchy demands of males is not violence toward women. Instead patriarchy demands of all males that they engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that they kill off the emotional parts of themselves. If an individual is not successful in emotionally crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self-esteem." The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love (2004)</p> <p>...I'm now resisting the urge to follow this with a quote from Madonna's <em>What It Feels Like For A Girl</em>. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723#post-279886 Mon, 09 Apr 2018 22:29:12 +0000 I were right about that saddle 279886@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Events must promise suffering of some sort.</em></p> <p>There are running events that now include electrified mud. I wish I was making that up but I'm not. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723#post-279884 Mon, 09 Apr 2018 21:45:54 +0000 LaidBack 279884@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Basically 'real' bikes are 'never' advertised for ease of use or comfort.<br /> Branding is all about speed. Events must promise suffering of some sort. Cycling is seen by many to be an antidote to being safe / indoors / in a car and requires special clothes etc (true I suppose if you cycle more than a few miles as fast as you can go).<br /> It is not an integrated part of daily life for most. Running to work probably has a more even male/female mix as risk is perceived as less.<br /> In European cities fast riding is unusual. The flow is designed to be fast on a bike whereas here we have to compete for our road space with everything else. I think I seem to 'enjoy' this but that enjoyment is totally wrong if we are to increase bike usage. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723#post-279868 Mon, 09 Apr 2018 17:49:36 +0000 c30c60 279868@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I don't believe the gender split is caused by silly bike staff or marketing. I know several women who might cycle to work, but they also have to get kids to school or nursery and run errands. Not everybody is happy to put a child on Edinburgh's roads. More generally, there are differences in how people perceive public space. Many women learn at an early age that it's better not to attract attention outdoors - claiming your space on the road can go against years of ingrained learning. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723#post-279857 Mon, 09 Apr 2018 16:52:28 +0000 I were right about that saddle 279857@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Bike shops (man, I hate those places) are effectively gang huts</em></p> <p>That is, grimly, so.</p> <p><em>what's the cause of the gender split?</em></p> <p>I'm sure there's a whole book to be written on that if it hasn't already been done. One might single out conventional masculinity prizing risk taking, physical strength and competition. And not prizing a perfectly groomed appearance. I've long thought that expectations of the appearance of women at work is a massive barrier to transport cycling. </p> <p>I have no experience of being female so I may not be well placed to comment. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723#post-279853 Mon, 09 Apr 2018 16:41:25 +0000 amir 279853@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think Sportives tend to have a higher proportion of females than Audaxes (no evidence for this- just anecdotal). Not sure why, perhaps just a momentum thing. And numbers vary quite a lot between audaxes - perhaps an advertising thing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723#post-279852 Mon, 09 Apr 2018 16:18:29 +0000 Morningsider 279852@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>IWRATS - what's the cause of the gender split? Ignoring our rubbish infrastructure for now - I do think there is something in how cycling is marketed in the UK. Bike shops (man, I hate those places) are effectively gang huts - outsiders are rebuffed, staff are overwhelmingly male, jargon abounds, bikes are marketed on obscure technical characteristics and under baffling categories (XC, gravel, adventure, hybrid). Let's face it - this is all aimed at (some) men. Efforts to cater to women often seem embarrassing or patronising (often both). I'm not saying some women don't like this stuff - but marketing bods certainly see it as a male thing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723#post-279851 Mon, 09 Apr 2018 16:18:25 +0000 paddyirish 279851@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Interesting thread. I often find myself yo-yoing with other riders and think there isn't anything sinister involved, though whether my fellow cyclists believe that, I don't know.</p> <p>My cycling is very much one-paced - on a typical commute I seem to plod along at one speed on a good day and 1-2mph slower on a bad day. While a significant portion of commuters are just faster than I am, I notice that I am generally faster than some others on uphills and they come flying past me on downhill / flat sections. I'm also rubbish at accelerating, so someone will often set off faster than I am, but once I get up to speed I will end up moving faster than they do. Throw in a few junctions/lights and yo-yoing will happen a lot.</p> <p>If I am catching a rider in front, I do assess whether I could sustain a pace to get past them and stay past, or whether I am better dropping my speed by 1 mph and staying 5-10 bike lengths behind them. I don't always get it right. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723#post-279845 Mon, 09 Apr 2018 15:49:43 +0000 Cyclingmollie 279845@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Riding a bicycle is quite a vulnerable position to be in. Isn't it?</em></p> <p>If by that you mean we leave ourselves open to criticism due to restrictive binary labelling then yes. Cyclists or drivers, pootlers or racers, competitive or non-competitive, lycra-wearing or "normal", sporty or non-sporty. Add toxic masculinity to the mix and you have as you say, an activity that for some is about nothing more than going further and faster than some notional or real rival. Why is it so hard to be allowed to be all these at some time? There's a film out just now called Mamil that looks at men and their views on cycling. I've not seen it but I think it tries to get past some of the obvious contradictions - like people with normal body shapes wearing lycra - to get to some deeper truths about being a man (especially in macho Australia, I think). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723#post-279843 Mon, 09 Apr 2018 15:41:18 +0000 stiltskin 279843@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Interesting that people have interpreted this as a male/female thing."</p> <p>Well.... Your thread <em>is</em> entitled 'Macho biking' </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723#post-279842 Mon, 09 Apr 2018 15:37:53 +0000 I were right about that saddle 279842@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Interesting that people have interpreted this as a male/female thing.</p> <p>I was wondering if bicycling could shed light on the nature of masculinity. Perhaps it has? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18723#post-279833 Mon, 09 Apr 2018 14:58:26 +0000 Lezzles 279833@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Its all anecdotal but I'm not sure I can remember a time when I've overtaken a woman and they've then come steaming back less than 10 seconds later. On my commute the women are also more likely to respond to my chirpy 'morning' than the men. </p> <p>There is a gender divide though when it comes to taking up cycling. Ihave many many female friends who happily cycle with their family on a weekend on cycle paths. Very very few of them also consider cycling to work/shops etc as a valid form of transport. They're all perfectly fit but are concerned about traffic and the danger it poses them. </p> <p>I'd say they also probably think I'm completely foolhardy for taking my toddler on my bike anywhere other than the offroad paths. </p>