http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Edinburgh Uni works on Middle Meadow Walk en Tue, 19 May 2026 07:57:56 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=5#post-312929 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 21:23:45 +0000 jonty 312929@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think the junction at the bottom works fine really cos you slow down and expect to have to negotiate around people. </p> <p>I'd be sad to see lights there as I always think of that junction as a solid example of how traffic lights are only there because cars necessitate them. I wonder how the throughput of that junction - whose infrastructure costs are basically zero - compares to ones in Edinburgh where tens of thousands of pounds has been spent installing and maintaining traffic lights. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312908 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:56:04 +0000 mcairney 312908@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Controversial idea perhaps but a traffic light junction at the bottom of MMW? They do have traffic-light controlled bicycle/pedestrian junctions in Copenhagen and it would reduce conflict and might be interesting as a social experiment to see if the "cyclists are a bunch of red-light jumping anarchists" trope holds any water.</p> <p>A solid white line means "do not cross" according to the Highway code but some sort of low-level physical segregation like raised brickwork along the boundary wouldn't go amiss. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312907 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:29:00 +0000 condor2378 312907@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I go through MMW at least twice a day on weekdays. At the moment it is my least favourite part of the commute as pedestrians really just take no notice and jump out. I inevitably find I end up going very slowly and ringing the bell all the time. Thankfully, only one more day to go... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312904 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:01:04 +0000 AKen 312904@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I actually think at the variety of times I've cycled MMW recently the lane has been pretty well observed.</em></p> <p>Usually. Afternoons during the Festival can have people wandering all over the place so caution is required. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312903 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:59:08 +0000 mgj 312903@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@jonty - yes, I'd close it probably during the festival to cyclists but then it isnt on my current commute. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312902 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:45:45 +0000 jdanielp 312902@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There has definitely been at least one collision between a person on a bicycle and a person on foot at the crossing point on MMW. I don't think I have witnessed one yet, but girlfriend of jdanielp once reported the aftermath of one.</p> <p>I suppose a 'punishment' for wandering into the bike lane without looking is the possibility of being collided with.</p> <p>I have had more near misses on the non-crossing sections. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312898 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:19:49 +0000 jonty 312898@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think pedestrians having 'every right' to be on the cycle lane is a red herring - as fimm says they have just as much 'right' to be on the road. The way humans interact with infrastructure is far more to do with intuition and desire than 'rights' and 'rules'.</p> <p>@mgj: You posted while I was writing this but I think we're largely in agreement. The cycle path should be clearly distinct and then behaviour will change - don't know why it didn't get red chip when it was resurfaced, for example. </p> <p>I actually think at the variety of times I've cycled MMW recently the lane has been pretty well observed. (To the point that I've looked at how busy and congested the pedestrian side is and though 'if this were a road, I'd probably be demanding it be closed so pedestrians had more space'...) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312897 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:15:56 +0000 mgj 312897@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I dont think it needs punishments; it needs to be understandable to a visitor and local. Pavements are at different heights to roads; pedestrians can understand that pretty easily. So, rather than the white line, raise the non-cycle side by six inches. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312896 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:05:35 +0000 gembo 312896@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>ooooh, guard rail might have been the university? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312894 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 13:50:24 +0000 fimm 312894@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Pedestrians also have the right to be in the road, but we do expect them not to walk down the middle of the road without looking behind at all...</p> <p>I don't think there are any simple solutions. You see the films of cyclists going every which way in the Netherlands and that's great but I'd hate to have to try and negotiate that sort of set up if I couldn't see what was going on, for example. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312891 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 13:39:45 +0000 chdot 312891@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“If you cycle it, you'll have to go round somone who doesnt understand the white line and picture of bike sign etc.”</p> <p><em>Part</em> of the problem here (as I understand it) is that actually pedestrians have every right to be on the ‘cycle lane’. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312890 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 13:12:06 +0000 jonty 312890@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That's a clever idea - the junction at the bottom is much wider and theoretically more chaotic but seems to work fine as there's lots of room to figure out what people's intentions are and manoeuvre around them. Would need folk to chill out coming down the hill but I think it could work.</p> <p>@mgj: what sort of punishments would you have for pedestrians who miss bike signs and cross the white line? Would it be the same thing as motorway legislation for bikes with similar punishment or more like littering? How would crossings work? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312889 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 12:49:12 +0000 neddie 312889@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Any actual suggestions then as to how the conflict can be reduced?</em></p> <p>Remove the stupid guard-rail that was added to the crossing to/from George Sq that funnels all pedestrians into a narrow and single point.</p> <p>Add footpaths along the diagonal desire-lines across the grass into George Sq.</p> <p>Pedestrians can cross the bike route informally anywhere.</p> <p>No need for any stupid paint apart from the separating centreline (which should actually be raised for compatibility with the tactiles). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312888 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 12:33:42 +0000 mgj 312888@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If you walk it at any time of year, you'll see near misses (this is not hyperbole of the 'all cyclists go through red lights variety'). If you cycle it, you'll have to go round somone who doesnt understand the white line and picture of bike sign etc. Its just a route designed (or rather not designed) to create conflict. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312884 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 12:18:37 +0000 gembo 312884@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ok, my line could be - have there ever been any collisions</p> <p>Or has there been a worse collision than usual causing recent paint </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312883 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 12:03:48 +0000 mgj 312883@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think MMW is some of the most stupid provision in the city. A steepish hill where on the downhill section you can reach some pretty high speeds and yet there is nothing but a couple of bits of paint to warn unwary pedestrians of cyclists. We dont have it on any roads in the city where the pavement is just marked out by paint, so why here? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312881 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 11:44:57 +0000 gembo 312881@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Any actual suggestions then as to how the conflict can be reduced?</p> <p>I can ask about this if we have a positive and achievable end point that the council can deliver.</p> <p>The active travel people work hard to get the roads people to instal signs that reduce conflict. So for two years we fought at the top of new street to change the sign from a red circle with a motor cycle flying over a car to NO ENTRY and Except Cycles. We won eventually as the employees of the council are in general pro-car so we have to win hearts and minds.</p> <p>Do we want a zebra with belisha beacons</p> <p>Wont be for the new intake of students</p> <p>Or are we saying if we take on the presumed liability there is no need for signs/paint</p> <p>or is there no consensus in which case we have no chance </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312880 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 11:35:34 +0000 Snowy 312880@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>'fake' and shoddy hieroglyphics </em><br /> Nice phrase :-) Personally I think the existing give-way paintings fall into that category. Shouldn't we aim for a balance of least intrusive / most effective? That's why I think zebra markings would be better than the give-way markings: my thinking is that only the cyclists notice the give-way markings, but both cyclists and pedestrians would notice zebra markings? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312879 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 11:33:00 +0000 neddie 312879@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I agree with Muran.</p> <p>The more road-like you make the bike path, the more conflict it introduces. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312878 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 11:24:21 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur 312878@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I wouldn't support a MMW zebra crossing unless 'properly' specced ie amber beacons etc for night visibility. I'm sick of the council graffiti-ing what little bike infrastructure exists with 'fake' and shoddy hieroglyphics that probably have no legal standing due to their non-road location and substandard spec. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312871 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 10:44:56 +0000 mgj 312871@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Since, stupidly/dangerously, pedestrians can wander anywhere over the 'cycle lane', any zebra crossing should be accompanied by an order making the cycle lane a cycle lane, with 'cycles only' signs </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312840 Wed, 21 Aug 2019 20:28:27 +0000 rbrtwtmn 312840@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've been cycling up MMW every day this week - thinking every time I cross the route over to George Square "why isn't this a zebra". Would be much clearer, even if not everyone took notice it would at least tell some people they were crossing something. At the moment a stranger walking there (from George Square)has little or no indication that they have just walked onto a space for cycling. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312824 Wed, 21 Aug 2019 13:50:17 +0000 CycleAlex 312824@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>We’ll have a sweet spot of a few years where the central island is deserted before tram pax start getting in the way! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312822 Wed, 21 Aug 2019 13:47:04 +0000 chdot 312822@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ok,</p> <p>Still remains to be seen what actually appears on the ground - and how much gets used by pedestrians... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312821 Wed, 21 Aug 2019 13:37:15 +0000 CycleAlex 312821@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@chdot Well, no? Obviously the concept of the gyratory is deeply flawed but the cycle provision is actually pretty good. More so once CCWEL/Tram project is finished (if ever). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312819 Wed, 21 Aug 2019 13:05:29 +0000 jonty 312819@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Certainly best in terms of metres of segregated lane built (and opened!) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312795 Tue, 20 Aug 2019 21:31:55 +0000 chdot 312795@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Are you using “best” ironically?? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312789 Tue, 20 Aug 2019 20:39:12 +0000 CycleAlex 312789@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ironically the best cycling infrastructure this year will come from the Picardy Place works! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312787 Tue, 20 Aug 2019 20:29:39 +0000 Morningsider 312787@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So that's Edinburgh's new cycling infrastructure for 2019 installed. Roll on 2020...when the white lines of an ASL in Colinton Mains get repainted. </p> <p>(Yes, yes - Meadows-Canal coming soon. I'll believe it when I see it). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18795&page=4#post-312783 Tue, 20 Aug 2019 19:24:53 +0000 NiallA 312783@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Just thought I’d comment that that’s me in neddie’s first picture - so photo spotted...</p> <p>I’d just slowed to let someone cross to George Square, although a great many cyclists don’t seem to do this. I like the idea of a zebra - I think it would be useful as there is a lot of foot traffic between MMW and GS. </p>