http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Edinburgh drivers to get new subsidy en Sun, 31 May 2026 10:42:10 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19384 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 23:56:33 +0000 druidh 19384@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>chdot<br /> Admin<br /> "Electric cars are about to take off."</p> <p>That would certainly help solve the congestion issue, but wouldn't they then be electric aircraft? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19382 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 23:30:18 +0000 Smudge 19382@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"So what heats the inside of an electric car?"</p> <p>The warm glow of self-righteousness? ;-) :-o </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19381 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 23:29:43 +0000 kaputnik 19381@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>So what heats the inside of an electric car?</em></p> <p>The driver's sense of self esteem :) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19380 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 23:24:41 +0000 wee folding bike 19380@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So what heats the inside of an electric car?</p> <p>My VW has no heating but that's because the pipes fell off sometime in the last 40 years. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19379 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 23:13:03 +0000 kaputnik 19379@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"But do electric cars work after being buried in a snowdrift? "</em></p> <p>Apparently LIon batteries atually work better and discharge slower around freezing, and will happily operate down to -50C and beyond.</p> <p>Can't speak for the rest of their electronics or systems, I suppose one of the "advantages" of an IC engine in the cold is how hot it gets </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19377 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 22:58:46 +0000 Smudge 19377@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"But do electric cars work after being buried in a snowdrift? "</p> <p>No reason why not.. they're a lot simpler than IC cars :) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19372 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 22:39:52 +0000 LaidBack 19372@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>But do electric cars work after being buried in a snowdrift? <em>Sorry.. maybe asked that already!</em></p> <p>I was wrong about free parking over Christmas run up.</p> <p>The snow curtailed ticketing so shortfall in this area. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19334 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 14:42:31 +0000 Min 19334@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Spiralling also implies going round and round but not really up or down."</p> <p>I think of it as increasing so fast it makes you dizzy-as if you were spiralling round? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19333 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 14:39:53 +0000 chdot 19333@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Fuller details here-</p> <p><a href="http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/695/council_information_performance_and_statistics/1022/budgets/2" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/695/council_information_performance_and_statistics/1022/budgets/2</a></p> <p>No surprise that ENews majored on parking charges. </p> <p>Slight surprise that CEC has been willing to propose 'large' increases. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19332 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 14:32:18 +0000 kaputnik 19332@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Parking-burial-and-littering-.6660173.jp">Parking... ...hikes planned in latest cuts</a></p> <p>Of course the EEN is actually confusing increasing a charge with making a cut. They also think an hour's parking going up by 40p to £1.60 is "a surge". They might also want to use the other press favourites of "rocketing" or "spiralling", terms I particularly dislike as they don't imply direction on their own. You could rocket down the way or across the way if you wanted. Spiralling also implies going round and round but not really up or down. But they make the insignificant sound extreme (particularly when they aren't put in context) and that's what matters.</p> <p>They're also proposing to increase the number of on the spot litter tickets handed out (hear hear) and the cost for a burial. Then something about less money for maintaining the turf on bowling greens and golf courses. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19326 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 13:19:09 +0000 Min 19326@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Presume same as -</p> <p>"<br /> Daily life pollution refers to the type of environmental contamination caused by the everyday life activities of ordinary citizens and consumers."</p> <p>I was thinking more fear/injury/death. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19325 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 13:04:51 +0000 Smudge 19325@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It works on VED, large vehicles get crucified, smaller low/zero emmissions pay nothing.<br /> Maybe it is possible with the right pressure?</p> <p>I sound a litlte like the voice of car support here and that's not my intention, I just worried that the initial phase of this thread was all negative/outrage and much as I'd like to see vast investment in cycling it certainly isn't happening in the short term and will only happen in concert with other schemes which, whilst we may not agree with them, are seen by many as equally worthy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19324 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 13:04:38 +0000 chdot 19324@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Electric cars are about to take off. Or at least, that is the hope of governments around Europe and beyond which are rapidly developing policies to encourage their take up. However, there are numerous hurdles to overcome before electric cars are first produced in sufficient numbers to make an impact and then actually bought by the motoring public.<br /> "</p> <p><a href="http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2010/10/why-electric-cars-have-shorted-out" rel="nofollow">http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2010/10/why-electric-cars-have-shorted-out</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19321 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:58:26 +0000 chdot 19321@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I think part of the mainstream answer (in the short term at least) may involve one or two seat micro vehicles (think a streamliner electric bike maybe)"</p> <p>Well yes, but. </p> <p>While 'electric' is one issue, getting people to buy/use smaller vehicles doesn't seem too 'popular'. </p> <p>Of course government(s) <em>could</em> subside small vehicles (bicycles even!) OR tax bigger ones more. </p> <p>But that doesn't seem to be the way things work... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19320 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:58:01 +0000 kaputnik 19320@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I wonder what their criteria for approving the vehicles for subsidy is - they've approved the Peugeot iON but not (yet) the Citroen CZero. It's exactly the same car, badge engineered and offered with slightly different styling and trim options.</p> <p>I also see the "Vauxhall Ampera" (= <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vauxhall_Ampera">Cheverolet Volt</a>) was lurking in the background of the press release. Despite the electric-sounding name, it's a petrol hybrid. It's not due to be available until 2012, but the thing weighs 1.7 tonnes (empty). That is just not a step in the right direction. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19317 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:48:26 +0000 Morningsider 19317@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Smudge - I did think about the cycle to work scheme, but most employers do not offer this to their workers (mine included), and it isn't available to those who do not work. The plugged-in car grant is open to everyone wanting to buy an electric car.</p> <p>I have two concerns about these grants: The first is that this will be a complete waste of money. Battery powered vehicles could well turn out to be the betamax of "clean vehicles". The second is that it does nothing to tackle the dominance of the car including congestion, injuries and deaths, physical activity - you all know the score.</p> <p>Electic cars will improve local air conditions if taken up in great enough numbers, however I would put money on the cost/benefit of a similar investment in walking and cycling being far greater than this. No, I cannot prove that but statitics from Cycling England given at the recent Cycling Scotland conference put average cost/benefit of investment in cycling schemes at 6:1 - an almost unheard of ratio in transport investment. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19316 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:48:21 +0000 Smudge 19316@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Indeed, hence I didn't say stop the bus, just slow down a little from the total and outright condemnation ;-)<br /> They (electric cars/vehicles) are far from a green solution, imvho I think part of the mainstream answer (in the short term at least) may involve one or two seat micro vehicles (think a streamliner electric bike maybe) which can satisfy the end users current requirement for personal transportation (unfortunately not likely to reduce in the short term) by providing economy/comfort/weather protection whilst also reducing fuel consumption, vehicle weight and footprint and potentially congestion as well.<br /> Promoting cycling is certainly a win/win but in itself can only be a part of the answer.<br /> What the ultimate answer is I don't know (even if there is an answer!) but I'm watching with interest. :) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19315 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:46:37 +0000 chdot 19315@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"life pollution"</p> <p>Presume same as -</p> <p>"<br /> Daily life pollution refers to the type of environmental contamination caused by the everyday life activities of ordinary citizens and consumers. In contrast with main pollution caused by industrial production processes, daily life pollution includes detergent pollution in rivers, lakes, or the ocean caused by washing clothes and landfill and incineration pollution caused by excess household garbage.<br /> "</p> <p><a href="http://www.sociologyencyclopedia.com/public/tocnode?id=g9781405124331_yr2010_chunk_g978140512433110_ss1-1" rel="nofollow">http://www.sociologyencyclopedia.com/public/tocnode?id=g9781405124331_yr2010_chunk_g978140512433110_ss1-1</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19314 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:42:02 +0000 Min 19314@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yeah, what seems to get forgotten about a lot with cars is the space, noise and life pollution they create. Air pollutants are only one issue. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19312 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:38:26 +0000 kaputnik 19312@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Perhaps time to slow the outrage bus a little</em></p> <p>Absolutely agree with your points Smudge, you're right, it's always better to promote or subsidise electric vehicles (rather than the scrappage scheme, that replaced like with like, in the name of multinational car corporations).</p> <p>But then again it's also better yet to promote and subsidise reducing the need to rely on 4-wheeled, internally powered transport. I think pound for pound, investing in the latter would deliver far greater returns. Investing in electic cars does nothing to encourage people out of their 4-wheeled safety blankets or address the fact that transport in our city(ies) largely revolves around the car. It's a bit like treating the side-effects of a symptom and not the route cause (<em>Note - pun not intended, but think I'll leave it in</em>) of the problem.</p> <p>I also have a real problem with electric cars being touted as green saviours when they still take relatively large amounts of (energy intensive) aluminium, plastics and rubber to produce, not to mention all the fancy metallurgy required for their battery cells and electronic control systems.</p> <p>On his basis I don't quite think it merits the mantra of a "<strong>green revolution</strong>". Yet. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19311 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:35:50 +0000 chdot 19311@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Perhaps there could be a subsidy for turbotrainers connected to the grid. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19310 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:31:55 +0000 spitfire 19310@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think they should get a subsidy to fit a wind turbine to the roof of the car hence charging it as they drive along... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19308 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:28:58 +0000 cb 19308@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Hmm, <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11985866">this</a> story seems to have changed.</p> <p>When I read it earlier this morning Philip Hammond was quoted as saying something like, "now we can have the convience of the car without the carbon that goes with it".</p> <p>Now he is quoted as acknowledging the following:</p> <p>"There's no point in switching the car fleet to running on electricity if the electricity emits vast amounts of carbon dioxide." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19305 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:19:56 +0000 Smudge 19305@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Now where is my subsidy for a new bike and free cake to power it? " what about the cycle to work scheme over recent years?!?</p> <p>"I take it this is specially selected organic electricity not generated at Longannet / Cockenzie / Hunterston / Torness / Peterhead (i.e. the 80% of Scottish generation that is coal / nuclear / oil)"</p> <p>Of course it is from the current "dirty" power generators (*and* presumably from the various windfarms around here), of course there is still a HUGE efficiency benefit in centrally generating power then using electric to move vehicles over petrol/diesel burned in individual motor vehicles.</p> <p>Also I presume the charging points will be accessible to electric motorcycles/bicycles as well?</p> <p>Not to mention the benefits in reducing child athsma, pollution etc in the built up areas?</p> <p>Perhaps time to slow the outrage bus a little, I'd far rather they promoted electric vehicles than throwing money at conventional vehicles and/or a badly planned and managed tram project..</p> <p>I don't particularly like the idea of subsidising the early e-vehicle users, but it's more positive than many ideas. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19303 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:12:45 +0000 chdot 19303@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From Twitter</p> <p>"<br /> @carltonreid: </p> <p>Taxpayers will be forking out £300m for 60,000 rich motorists. But Cycling England scrapped? Evil. </p> <p><a href="http://bit.ly/eYg0G9" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/eYg0G9</a> </p> <p>Original Tweet: <a href="http://twitter.com/carltonreid/status/14629322891464704" rel="nofollow">http://twitter.com/carltonreid/status/14629322891464704</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19302 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:09:00 +0000 kaputnik 19302@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I take it this is specially selected organic electricity not generated at Longannet / Cockenzie / Hunterston / Torness / Peterhead (i.e. the 80% of Scottish generation that is coal / nuclear / oil)</p> <p>Revolutionary. Quite.</p> <p>How much would 375 well designed and placed bike racks cost around town in comparison? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19301 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:57:47 +0000 Morningsider 19301@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There are two grant schemes here:</p> <p>The Plugged-in Car Grant: This is a grant to motorists purchasing an eligible electric car from 1 January 2010. It covers up to one quarter of the price of the car, up to a maximum of £5000. The level of grant will be reviewed by the UK Department for Transport in January 2012. Some £43m has been allocated to the scheme for the period up until the end of March 2012.</p> <p>The Plugged-in Places Grant: Consortia based in the Midlands; Greater Manchester; East of England; Scotland and Northern Ireland have all bid successfully for the second round of Plugged-In Places funding. These schemes will provide over 4,000 charging points across the life of the scheme; at home, in on-street locations and at public, workplace and retail car parks.</p> <p>Sorry Edinburghvan - you are mistaken. The plugged in car grant is a direct subsidy to the owners of eligible electric vehicles and the plugged-in places grant a further subsidy for the development of charging infrastructure to allow these people to use their new cars.</p> <p>Of course, you don't have to take my word for it - see the attached Department for Transport press release:</p> <p><a href="http://nds.coi.gov.uk/clientmicrosite/Content/Detail.aspx?ClientId=202&amp;NewsAreaId=2&amp;ReleaseID=417055&amp;SubjectId=36" rel="nofollow">http://nds.coi.gov.uk/clientmicrosite/Content/Detail.aspx?ClientId=202&amp;NewsAreaId=2&amp;ReleaseID=417055&amp;SubjectId=36</a></p> <p>Now where is my subsidy for a new bike and free cake to power it? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19296 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:23:49 +0000 chdot 19296@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"EDINBURGH and Glasgow will get 375 plug-in charging points for electric cars as part of a "green revolution", UK Transport Secretary Philip Hammond was due to announce today."</p> <p><a href="http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/City-plug-for-electric-cars.6660157.jp" rel="nofollow">http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/City-plug-for-electric-cars.6660157.jp</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19287 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 09:53:16 +0000 chdot 19287@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From Twitter</p> <p>"<br /> edinburghvan Edinburgh Van </p> <p>@CyclingEdin the article is about electric cars, not drivers or subsidies</p> <p>"</p> <p>From BBC story</p> <p>"Where the eligible cars are leased by drivers instead of being bought, the up to £5,000 subsidy will mean a deduction on their monthly leasing fees." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1887#post-19286 Tue, 14 Dec 2010 09:53:16 +0000 chdot 19286@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From Twitter</p> <p>"<br /> edinburghvan Edinburgh Van </p> <p>@CyclingEdin the article is about electric cars, not drivers or subsidies</p> <p>"</p> <p>From BBC story</p> <p>"Where the eligible cars are leased by drivers instead of being bought, the up to £5,000 subsidy will mean a deduction on their monthly leasing fees." </p>