http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Are infrastructure and changing facilities sexist? en Tue, 19 May 2026 22:46:31 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909&page=2#post-284808 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 13:20:21 +0000 crowriver 284808@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@neddie, but what about all the shoppers that need to load/unload fridges in their hatchback supermini city cars? The city centre will be a desert of empty shops.....er.....wait. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909&page=2#post-284804 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 12:51:19 +0000 neddie 284804@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The WAR should be closed to private motors. There is no sense trying to draw cars into a "Transformed" city centre that is mostly pedestrianised and blocked to through traffic, right? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909&page=2#post-284799 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 11:54:32 +0000 steveo 284799@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>In diversity terminology, that would be indirect discrimination </em></p> <p>ah, okay fair enough. I'll stand down :) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909&page=2#post-284798 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 11:53:44 +0000 steveo 284798@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em> are you talking about the canal bit? </em></p> <p>No, but now you question me I can't remember whether its at the Silver Wing or the college. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909&page=2#post-284797 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 11:41:54 +0000 crowriver 284797@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"None of these things were deliberately set out to exclude or undermine any group,"</p> <p>In diversity terminology, that would be indirect discrimination (i.e. when there's a practice, policy or rule which applies to everyone in the same way, but it has a worse effect on some people than others), or unintentional discrimination. As opposed to direct discrimination (i.e. when you are treated differently and worse than someone else because of who you are). </p> <p>Mind you it can be argued that shunting pedestrians into an underpass to allow motorists unimpeded use of the roads <em>is</em> direct discrimination. But then you can say, aha but ALL pedestrians are treated equally badly regardless of gender, class, race, etc. But given that females, the poor and ethnic minorities are more likely to be pedestrians (especially in the 1960s but also now) then we're back to indirect discrimination. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909&page=2#post-284796 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 11:39:37 +0000 jonty 284796@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I was talking about the ones at the roundabout but fair point - are you talking about the canal bit? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909&page=2#post-284791 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 11:29:08 +0000 steveo 284791@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>yet I'm not aware of any official aspirations to get rid of a single subway under Calder Road. </em></p> <p>Assuming you ignore the pedestrian crossing that's been added bypassing the worst of the underpasses then yeah, fair point... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909&page=2#post-284790 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 11:28:13 +0000 steveo 284790@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>But "making sure cars got through in fabulous 60's wealth making fashion" was (and is) sexist, racist and classist. </em></p> <p>I'm obviously working to a different definition of the above. </p> <p>None of these things were deliberately set out to exclude or undermine any group, if anything they were built to encourage people who couldn't afford to live in the posh city centre to at least drive there. I don't see how its helpful to brand it in such a way? The sign above it says no bikes not no Woman, no Coloureds and no Irish. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909&page=2#post-284787 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 10:40:47 +0000 chdot 284787@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From first link -</p> <p>“</p> <p>This proposed new section of shared pedestrian and cycle way will be segregated from the West Approach Road city-bound carriageway and link between the Dalry Community Park and Morrison Crescent.</p> <p>“</p> <p>How many years has this not been coming?? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909&page=2#post-284786 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 10:32:04 +0000 jonty 284786@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/roseburntounioncanal/supporting_documents/7.%20WAR%20Toucan.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/roseburntounioncanal/supporting_documents/7.%20WAR%20Toucan.pdf</a></p> <p><a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15762#post-204715" rel="nofollow">http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15762#post-204715</a></p> <p>Did people who responded to that consultation get a letter saying it was delayed, or are you just meant to assume that by now? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909&page=2#post-284785 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 10:28:35 +0000 mgj 284785@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@jonty how are pedestrians and cyclists meant to traverse the WAR then? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909&page=2#post-284783 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 10:24:05 +0000 mgj 284783@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This all assumes that there is some sort of magic wand that can be waved to put in place universal infrastructure suitable for all needs of all types of cyclists. There isn't; we need to first change the behaviour and attitudes of non-cyclists and then embed good design into any new facilities designed to make cycling even better.</p> <p>And if women are less likely to cycle, that may explain why some of the worst close passes, MGIFs and 'get out of my ways' have been from women drivers, so I would think that MAMILS and other male groups of cyclists have an interest in getting as many women cycling as possible. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909&page=2#post-284782 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 10:21:21 +0000 jonty 284782@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The comments both in and below the EEN article about the council planning to get rid of the Telfer subway were quite striking - from my scan it seemed that most of the people going "it's fine! what a waste of money!" were male and the ones going "can't happen soon enough, horrible place" were female. </p> <p>If we're talking about classism too, it's also interesting to (slightly provocatively) note that there are at least solid plans to get rid of the Telfer Subway - which connects the West End to Merchiston - yet I'm not aware of any official aspirations to get rid of a single subway under Calder Road. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909&page=2#post-284781 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 10:10:20 +0000 unhurt 284781@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Bingo! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284778 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 10:03:50 +0000 Frenchy 284778@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>But they're not sexist or racist or classist or any other ist they're just there to make sure the cars got through in fabulous 60's wealth making fashion. </em></p> <p>But "making sure cars got through in fabulous 60's wealth making fashion" <em>was</em> (and <em>is</em>) sexist, racist and classist. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284766 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 08:55:42 +0000 I were right about that saddle 284766@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@steveo</p> <p>The Calder Road underpass was the exact one I had in mind. I remember the first time I came across it as a fit twenty-something and decided to hop the fence on the dual carriageway instead. At least that way I could see what was coming. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284750 Wed, 13 Jun 2018 22:14:21 +0000 Ed1 284750@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I avioded the calder under passes on satrurday night at 1 am. I use them in the day I think most people would avoid late at night irrespective of gender </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284748 Wed, 13 Jun 2018 21:19:30 +0000 steveo 284748@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I grew up near enough the Calder Road underpasses that I still get off the night bus early and route through Stenhouse to avoid them.</p> <p>But they're not sexist or racist or classist or any other ist they're just there to make sure the cars got through in fabulous 60's wealth making fashion. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284747 Wed, 13 Jun 2018 21:05:05 +0000 I were right about that saddle 284747@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Cars belong in underpasses, not people. Pedestrian underpasses aren't designed by men, they're the work of Satan. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284741 Wed, 13 Jun 2018 20:22:49 +0000 Morningsider 284741@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>unhurt/sally - yes, this is what I was really trying to get at. Clearly my last post was too short. I made a slightly better go of it about a week ago:</p> <p><a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18860#post-283689" rel="nofollow">http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18860#post-283689</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284740 Wed, 13 Jun 2018 20:20:43 +0000 gembo 284740@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@sallyhinch, I think all your points are well made. The only issue I have is that I would have to ask What infrastructure? What table is it that only men are sitting at to design segregated infrastructure?</p> <p>On the plus side, as there is no table I can see we still have the opportunity to make the table as inclusive as possible should there ever be a table?</p> <p>Underpasses are not something I am keen on for anyone. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284739 Wed, 13 Jun 2018 20:10:35 +0000 sallyhinch 284739@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>OK, wading in with a couple of points here. If routes and infrastructure are mostly designed by men, and if most of the discussions about which routes and infrastructure to build are mostly attended by men, then there are likely to be all sorts of things that aren't considered that turn out to be barriers to women. For instance, men keep telling me that underpasses are mechanically more efficient than bridges if you're on a bike, but they don't have decades of having it drummed into them that if you go into an underpass at night (or down a dark back route or along a lonely footpath) and get raped, then it will be entirely their fault. And, as has been said upthread, because women are more likely to escort children to school, they do different journeys from men, at different times, whereas a lot of the cycling infrastructure that is built is based on major commuter routes. </p> <p>So yes, until women are at the table when decision are made, then those decisions will likely be sexist, and if minorities are not at the table then decisions will be made that likely exclude them, and if people with disabilities are not at the table then decisions will be made that exclude them (as a glance at almost any cycle path you care to name will amply illustrate). </p> <p>Things don't have to be deliberately sexist for them to be sexist. It's all very well saying it's 'unthinking' but once you get the right people in the room then these things *will* get thought of. </p> <p>And, amazingly, if we start to design for people who can't brush off the dangerous bits and the discontinuities, and the barriers and the lack of social safety, we'll end up with really good infrastructure that will also benefit those who can. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284735 Wed, 13 Jun 2018 19:36:47 +0000 gembo 284735@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Being obtuse here, if infrastructure is sexist would this be remedied by girls lanes and boys lanes?</p> <p>I am fortunate now to have a kind of executive loo near my desk (there are a few of these dotted around the building, not technically for senior management actually as anyone v<br /> Can use them and people walk for miles to do so) anyway this means I have. Not used our changing rooms for a while, when I. Did the sound proofing was not great so it always sounded like the women were having more fun</p> <p>In an effort to salvage some cred, I would say that this year the gender split at bike breakfast was fifth fifty</p> <p>Which can only be a good thing </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284728 Wed, 13 Jun 2018 17:53:41 +0000 unhurt 284728@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>just unthinking</em> - this is <em>exactly</em> how embedded, structural -isms work. In this case, assuming adult (able bodied) men are the "standard human" for whom public space should be designed. They are not.</p> <p><em>The negative effects also fall on the elderly, carers, children etc. </em></p> <p>Elderly people are disproportionately women. Women are a disproportionate % of carers and still much more likely to be in charge of children. So this just multiplies the negative effects on women. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284723 Wed, 13 Jun 2018 16:29:32 +0000 crowriver 284723@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"the guardian seems to have veered away from writing articles based on actual evidence"</p> <p>To be fair it is based on a <a href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44446958">Sustrans report</a> and a link to a Beeb article on same is provided in the article. Whether Ms Pidd's opinions are consistent with the evidence is of course debatable.</p> <p>Interestingly the Beeb article links to an earlier one from January: <a href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44446958">What is stopping women from cycling?</a> This features quotes from.....Helen Pidd. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284720 Wed, 13 Jun 2018 15:44:58 +0000 Morningsider 284720@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Generally, our streets and public transport routes and ticketing have been designed to facilitate the type of trips predominantly made by better-off, able-boded men (home-work and long distance intercity). I'm not sure that makes the design "sexist", just unthinking. The negative effects also fall on the elderly, carers, children etc. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284719 Wed, 13 Jun 2018 15:37:00 +0000 steveo 284719@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Therefore it could be considered sexist if it only considers the evidence from current cyclists (predominantely male).</em></p> <p>I'm yet to convinced that cycling infrastructure considers anything other than parking and traffic flow tbh. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284718 Wed, 13 Jun 2018 15:18:38 +0000 mgj 284718@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>In the absence of a sudden huge influx of cash to build segregated facilities immediately, the focus needs to be on making the existing roads safe. If there is a gendered difference in the reaction to how safe the roads appear to be, Police Scotland should be challenged on that. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284716 Wed, 13 Jun 2018 15:18:13 +0000 Lezzles 284716@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Its not terribly well written but there are clear differences in numbers of people cycling based on gender split. There is some evidence that behavioural characteristics of these genders are part of the reason for this split. By building infrastructure that doesn't take into account these behavioural differences is a bit silly. Therefore it could be considered sexist if it only considers the evidence from current cyclists (predominantely male).</p> <p>But yes the guardian seems to have veered away from writing articles based on actual evidence and more on the opinions of people with limited perspective. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=18909#post-284715 Wed, 13 Jun 2018 15:15:47 +0000 steveo 284715@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Cycling around Edinburgh requires a certain appetite for risk and I am yet to be persuaded that there isn't a gender difference in that appetite. </em></p> <p>But does that make the road sexist or the infrastructure completely inadequate for all? </p>