http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: E-bike: gateway drug or 'the answer'? en Wed, 01 Jul 2026 10:40:12 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=3#post-351114 Fri, 28 May 2021 12:07:28 +0000 ejstubbs 351114@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Dave: <em>The Bosch assist feels over-sensitive, it changes the power too rapidly based on what my feet are doing</em></p> <p>I've never ridden a STEPs-powered e-bike to compare, but I'd agree that the Bosch system can feel a bit jerky. As fitted to my eMTB (2018 Performance Line CX) I find it wholly unsuitable for technical climbs on any setting higher than Eco, which basically just compensates for the additional weight of the motor+battery. Getting a hefty 'kick' of assitance just as you try to nadger your way round the apex of a tight uphill hairpin is <u>not</u> helpful.</p> <p>Tour mode is more or less OK, and can in fact (though perhaps counter-intuitively) be useful on downhills such as Spooky Wood, giving a bit of extra oomph out of slow corners (or to put it another way: corners that you* chicken out of taking at full downhill speed at the last minute!) It can be a bit jerky away from rest, though.</p> <p>Turbo mode is great for blatting up boring fire roads but not much else. I find I can usually change up two gears as soon as I engage Turbo, so it's fast but it's not very controllable - it basically seems to work like an on/off switch: if you're exerting any kind of torque on the pedals at all then it provides full assistance, there doesn't seem to be much of a graduation in the delivery.</p> <p>eMTB mode I find puzzling: it's supposed to adjust the assistance level automatically between Tour (120%) and Turbo (300%) but somehow always seem to be giving me either too much or not enough. I've basically given up using it after one too many almost-being-flipped-over-backwards experiences on steep rock steps. (Some owners of pre-2018 Bosch systems were none too happy with the "upgrade" from Sport to eMTB that was applied when they got their bike serviced.)</p> <p>I know that Bosch claim that their more recent systems have even cleverer software so maybe newer ones are more forgiving. It's just a shame that, a bit like mobile phones, there seems to be no way to get the latest firmware installed on systems that are more than a year or two old. Definitely a step backwards in eco-friendliness IMO.</p> <p><em>* i.e.me.</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=3#post-351060 Thu, 27 May 2021 10:42:25 +0000 steveo 351060@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The mid drive full suspension bike I hired at Cromrie had more in common with a MX bike but it had many more torques. But it was such a different experience to a rigid commuter.</p> <p>I can't remember if it was shimano or bosch but was much nicer but then it was a £5k bike and the drive system was basically replacing a chair lift! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=3#post-351059 Thu, 27 May 2021 10:25:18 +0000 Dave 351059@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've never ridden a hub motor and would be interested to compare. </p> <p>We have both Bosch and Shimano mid drive. The Bosch seems perhaps more powerful (although that could simply be a new longtail VS an older e-bike towing a trailer) but I prefer the feel of the Shimano STEPs motor to Bosch. </p> <p>The Bosch assist feels over-sensitive, it changes the power too rapidly based on what my feet are doing, so if I'm not just plowing on at full speed it makes everything more jerky. The Shimano assist is probably dumber, but it is noticeably smoother when you're negotiating a gate / path entrance / etc. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=3#post-351033 Wed, 26 May 2021 17:05:44 +0000 steveo 351033@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yeah, the lack of gears and belt drive for me made it a great choice for commuting, only other thing I would add is disk brakes. Course I got it a week before lockdown so never once used for a commute!</p> <p>It could do with a bit more grunt there are some hills where the speed drops to ~10mph and you can really feel the torque from the motor. On the flat I get to about 14mph and before the motor cuts out but the gearing is such that its easy enough to keep pedaling to about 16mph-17mph before your just wasting energy. Its also easy enough to ride powerless but the gearing is a bit high for starting off. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=3#post-351032 Wed, 26 May 2021 16:37:14 +0000 LaidBack 351032@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Steveo - that's what I thought.<br /> J at Bike Works thinks G-Tech is right in it's less 'gear-centric' approach.<br /> Cost wise it's good value and does the job I'm sure. E-bikes generally wear brakes more as heavier but consumables are a fact whatever the price level a bike is bought at. </p> <p>One recurring 'theme' when selling an e-bike though is "can I pedal it with no power/battery left?". The answer is yes but a bigger spread of gears will help. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=3#post-351031 Wed, 26 May 2021 16:26:39 +0000 steveo 351031@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Laidback its a gtech. Basically a cheap bike with a fancy drive train. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=3#post-351029 Wed, 26 May 2021 16:11:10 +0000 LaidBack 351029@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@steveo - what make is that? (Sorry will be downthread). Bike Works reckons that mulitigears are wasted and of course e-bikes have users that don't work with gearing anyway as attracting 'new cyclists'.</p> <p>But of course cycling is a fashion business and easier selling a 10 speed bike (eg Dave's Nihola) versus the classic Nihola cargo trike with a mere 7 speeds on a hub motor.<br /> The 10 speed with Shimano mid-drive 'feels' better to use as do the Bosch/Yamaha/Bafang crank drive models. Power assist cuts in as soon as pedal moves so gives a 'servo-assisted' feel. Hub motors though do cause less chain wear of course.</p> <p>One 'odd' thing is that Shimano's forward planning had made sure gearing options were intergral to the Di2 system that runs the motor. Their latest e-bikes offer a 5 speed hub as more robust than Alfine or Nexus 8 speed. 5 gears are enough really. Their e-shift Di2 screen displays the gear but hub gear works nicely manually too and old style display faster to read.</p> <p>Bosch of course sell loads of motors but rely on 'bike companies' to provide gearing.</p> <p>You might have expected Sturmey Archer to have gone into this e-bike hub market but no sign of that.</p> <p>(Sold a few models with Gates belt drive but had a belt sprocket with broken splines) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=3#post-351028 Wed, 26 May 2021 15:24:49 +0000 steveo 351028@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Alternatively a rear wheel motor takes a lot of the strain off the drive train, in ideal circumstances only needed as a sensor to say the rider is pedaling and bring in the power. </p> <p>The motor on mine is small and struggles with my fat self on hills so needs some input and being a single speed this sometimes translates into a lot of torque. I'm sure the belt drive is upto it but the plastic chainwheel doesn't fill me with confidence on the odd occasion I have to put some extra power through it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=3#post-351027 Wed, 26 May 2021 14:58:53 +0000 chdot 351027@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“are makers simply using the wrong equipment?“</p> <p>Quite probably, though (maybe) another byproduct of the industry/marketing ‘need’ for faster/lighter. </p> <p>More gears means more compromises - particularly in product/wear life. </p> <p>Though presumably the serious E-bike manufacturers are aware of this and considering options(?)</p> <p>Perhaps go back to the previous standard of 1/8”??</p> <p>3 speed chains were sometimes used for decades - often with completely hooked teeth on chainwheel and sprockets... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=3#post-351026 Wed, 26 May 2021 14:32:29 +0000 Arellcat 351026@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It oughtn't to be so surprising that e-bikes are heavier on transmissions. It would be interesting to know the average (or RMS, maybe) power output at the sprocket, compared with a purely human powered bike. And it would be interesting to know if heavier chains are ever specified.</p> <p>Playing fast and loose with some numbers, supposing an e-bike rider+motor allows for a time-averaged power output of 150W, that's somewhere between 175 and 270 times less than what my not-especially-powerful 55bhp motorbike will do, depending whether I ride it the way I usually do (fairly slow and puttery) or if I caned it all the time (red mist, evening jaunts and motorway dashes). </p> <p>But the chain on my motorbike is massive: it weighs about 2kg! A Sram single speed chain is only 330g; a typical 9-speed chain about 300g. So a chain that is objectively only six times more massive can handle 175 times more power. It lasts for 10,000, maybe 15,000 miles, yet 'only' costs about seven times more than a 9-speed chain.</p> <p>A piddly Honda CBF125 puts out over 50 e-bikepower, yet takes a DID 428 chain that costs less than £20.</p> <p>I realise that we have a lot of derailleury e-bikes going around, but for the hubgeared ones, are makers simply using the wrong equipment? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-351024 Wed, 26 May 2021 11:57:43 +0000 Dave 351024@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's surprising how much faster the chains wear out. I would guess I've changed the chain on the Nihola twice as often! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-351021 Wed, 26 May 2021 10:59:43 +0000 LaidBack 351021@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Dave - I guess some overtaking when your e-bike is at its 25kmph max is due to the fact that the upright ride position and effortless pedalling style 'reads' as a slower bike than it is.<br /> If you pull up in an ASL on an e-cargobike drivers behind automatically expect a slow start. In reality it's fast till the cut off and now with advance bike traffic lights you can be clean away from a junction before any car has moved. Many drivers think cycling is hard work - speaking to neighbours to shop they really don't understand how e-bikes (or any bike) can move so much.<br /> The output of the Bosch Cargoline motor does legally peak at well over 500w - pedal torque is 85Nm but has to be set at 75Nm to avoid damaging the inner of an Enviolo (NuVinci) hub. Larger UAs use a Rohloff but that forces price too high for much of the market. These peak power outputs have of course not much bearing on top speed but simply allow hills to be flattened faster. Even the original Steps motors with 55Nm torque work well.</p> <p>Higher powered bikes like Radwagon end up wearing out chains and rear blocks - battery gets used up faster too. More charge cycles shorten battery life etc. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-351019 Wed, 26 May 2021 10:48:05 +0000 chdot 351019@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There may or may not be some (partial) answers here, and/or scope for asking questions/raising issues -</p> <p><a href="https://www.micromobilitybiz.com/" rel="nofollow">https://www.micromobilitybiz.com/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-351018 Wed, 26 May 2021 10:39:09 +0000 chdot 351018@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“you need to MOT“</p> <p>Will all MOT testing places DO bikes? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-351017 Wed, 26 May 2021 10:25:16 +0000 Dave 351017@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's also annoying that the 250W cut-off applies equally to bikes with one lightweight rider and to a cargo bike. I can see how this is simpler to enforce, but you'd think the power restriction might be based on W/kg rather than simply the wattage.</p> <p>On a solo bike SWMBO could be getting close to 4W/kg of boost, but when I do the nursery run on our longtail I'm only getting 1.5W/kg which means it can still be a sweaty business and there are some routes I avoid due to hills, despite being on an e-bike.</p> <p>This is when I looked into an S-pedelec that would legally give you sixteen times higher maximum power. Unfortunately you can't take passengers and you can't use cycle routes or even bus lanes (unless they are permitted for all motorbikes). What could have been a car replacement turned out to be a bit of a white elephant. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-351016 Wed, 26 May 2021 10:15:39 +0000 Dave 351016@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Personally, I wish that we had the US style 20mph cut off so you could keep up with traffic in 20 zones. </p> <p>I've experienced quite a lot of impatient overtakes while pegging along at the 16mph limit, no doubt there would still be some if you were doing 20, but there's definitely a lot more incidents than on my road bike where I can keep up a bit easier.</p> <p>Pre-covid I used to take the A70 all the way into work at the west end, but after getting the ebike for nursery duties I switched to riding it along the canal. It was just a bit more nerve racking at key points like the slip road for the west approach rd. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-351015 Wed, 26 May 2021 09:57:40 +0000 Dave 351015@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Interesting, if you have an official S-pedelec you're not allowed to carry children on it (or use a trailer). You can legally carry children on motorbikes though, so getting an SVA for your bike to be a motorbike, not any kind of pedelec, would allow you to still use it for the school / nursery run. </p> <p>In either case, you need to MOT, motorbike helmet etc. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-351014 Wed, 26 May 2021 09:20:42 +0000 steveo 351014@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>It seems abundantly clear (at least, to anyone not trying to find a way to justify the illegal use of a non-compliant e-bike) that anything, whether manufactured or kit-built, that doesn't meet the EAPC standard is classed a motor vehicle</em></p> <p>Except that I'm trying to find a kit which does comply with the law, my cargo bike is conspicuous enough without the risk of <em>something</em> happening and the police deciding a random function on the handlebar control, or the peak power being closer to 400w and that I will there for get banned for 2 years and hit with a huge fine. </p> <p>(for reference most decent motors will have a peak power that way outstrips the 250w nominal)</p> <p><em>The fact that some people "get away with it" doesn't of itself make it legal (see also driving offences such as speeding, using a mobile phone while driving etc etc which I imagine everyone on this forum would deprecate).</em></p> <p>Its not about trying to get away with it, least not in my case. I'm sure there are plenty of folks pushing their ebikes in to small ptw territory but just trying to get a kit which complies with the law is the problem here.</p> <p><em>But the law which defines the technical requirements an e-bike has to meet in order not to be classed as a motor vehicle is based on that standard, so it comes down to the same thing at the end of the day: <a href="https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules" rel="nofollow">https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules</a>.</p> <p></em></p> <p>and the point here is that it is not possible to buy a EN whatever certified kit simply because the law to be certified does not apply to kits there for <em>none</em> are certified. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-351013 Wed, 26 May 2021 09:03:30 +0000 ejstubbs 351013@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@steveo: <em>EN15194 applies to the construction of bicycles and not to kits.</em></p> <p>But the law which defines the technical requirements an e-bike has to meet in order not to be classed as a motor vehicle is based on that standard, so it comes down to the same thing at the end of the day: <a href="https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules" rel="nofollow">https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules</a>.</p> <p><a href="https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/pedelec-law-the-details.37594/">This comprehensive post from an informed source on pedelecs.co.uk</a> gives pretty much chapter and verse on the law relating to road legal e-bikes. It includes a section dedicated to the issue of kit motors, the key parts of which I reproduce here for completeness:</p> <p><em>...both individuals and suppliers operate in a legal vacuum in which all try to supply and/or use as closely conforming to the complete e-bike law as they can, trusting that is acceptable. That has always worked throughout all of Europe and the UK without any mention of a possible prosecution, <strong>providing the three main points of the law are adhered to, i.e. 250 watts maximum assist, 15.5 mph maximum assist speed and power only when pedalling.</strong></p> <p>However, I can tell you the legal way of dealing with a kit, athough no-one has ever done it:</p> <p>1) Buy and fit the motor kit.<br /> 2) Make an appointment at an approved vehicle testing station, paying the £55 test fee.<br /> 3) Most often the purpose of this is to get an SVA (Single Vehicle Approval), entitling it for use as a type approved motor vehicle. However your intention will be to get the inspector to agree that it meets the [EAPC] requirements so is exempt from being a motor vehicle and is approved as a [EAPC].</em></p> <p>It seems abundantly clear (at least, to anyone not trying to find a way to justify the illegal use of a non-compliant e-bike) that anything, whether manufactured <strong>or</strong> kit-built, that doesn't meet the EAPC standard is classed a motor vehicle and thus must be registered, taxed, insured and ridden as one in order to be used anywhere other than on private land with the permission of the landowner. The fact that some people "get away with it" doesn't of itself make it legal (see also driving offences such as speeding, using a mobile phone while driving etc etc which I imagine everyone on this forum would deprecate).</p> <p>Note that the post also discusses twist-and-go throttles. These were legal (in the sense of not being specifically illegal) under the 1983 regulations, but were outlawed in the 2015 regulations. However, a bike manufactured or built to comply with the 1983 regulations <u>before 1/1/2016</u> could continue to be used under "grandfather rights" so long as it remained unmodified BUT that also meant that the motor was limited to 200W as allowed under the 1983 regulations, rather than the 250W allowed from 2015. However, it is actually <em>theoretically</em> possible to get an otherwise compliant 250W EAPC <u>with</u> a twist-and-go throttle approved as a "250W Low Powered Moped", which would also not be classed as a motor vehicle, but again it's unclear whether anyone has ever tried this. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-351006 Tue, 25 May 2021 22:15:49 +0000 steveo 351006@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've gone and done some more reading.</p> <p>EN15194 applies to the construction of bicycles and not to kits. The kits almost all have a larger than 250w motors but since the rating is actually 250w continuous power even a road legal one could have a larger output the only way to check is to look on the label. You can buy 250w stickers...</p> <p>The other problem is the lcd display allows the user to set the cut-off speed, ostensibly because the hub could be laced to any sized wheel there for the rpm to mph maybe different.</p> <p>But on both counts riding a bike with a DIY kit could theoretically land you in a load of trouble.</p> <p>Must have confused the second point with the "off road" button. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-351004 Tue, 25 May 2021 20:05:10 +0000 acsimpson 351004@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Frenchy, That article is a good one. It covers most of the arguments I came up with and some others. I don't see how e-bikes can't create more damage than non e-bikes. Although at the same time I am sure that a descending MTB will be far more damaging than any bike with 250W of assistance.</p> <p>@Steveo, in addition to ejstubbs point it seems clear that unlimited e-MTBs are not permitted under the land act. Individual land owners (eg forestry commission) can presumably permit them.</p> <p>@ejstubbs, My feeling in E&amp;W is that a road legal e-bike is probably legal to use anywhere a bike is permitted at least other than where the permission is granted by the class of route. ie it would be fine to use on a bridleway (road traffic law) but perhaps not at a trail centre (land owner granting permisison).</p> <p>As Frenchy's article alludes to I suspect it will take a land owner deciding they don't want them on their land for a clear legal position to be reached. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-351002 Tue, 25 May 2021 16:19:52 +0000 steveo 351002@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Nothing sold as a road legal e-bike (i.e. compliant with the EAPC regulations) should have any such mode.</em></p> <p>I've read conflicting opinions on this. Also <em>none</em> of the kits I've looked at would comply! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-351001 Tue, 25 May 2021 16:00:38 +0000 ejstubbs 351001@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@steveo: Nothing sold as a road legal e-bike (i.e. compliant with the EAPC regulations) should have any such mode. If it does then it's classed as a motorcycle &amp; must be registered &amp; insured, and the rider must wear a helmet, in order for it to be ridden on the public road, regardless of the mode it's operating in at any given time.</p> <p>My eMTB has four assistance levels (or "modes", if you will) but even the ones called "eMTB" and "Turbo" are compliant with the EAPC regulations in terms of the maximum assistance they provide and the cutoff speed.</p> <p>Politicians and lobbyists being what they are, I could foresee any future attempt at clarifying in statute the issue outlined in the linked article to incline towards prohibition by default. (Note that the right of access to designated open access land in England and Wales which was created in the Countryside Rights of Way Act 2000 does not include cycling at all, other than on the appropriate classes of public rights of way e.g. bridleways. <a href="https://www.gov.uk/right-of-way-open-access-land/use-your-right-to-roam">Reference</a>.) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-350999 Tue, 25 May 2021 15:15:56 +0000 steveo 350999@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A lot of ebikes have an off-road mode without said limitation. I've only used one on private land. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-350998 Tue, 25 May 2021 14:56:04 +0000 Frenchy 350998@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A lawyer says:</p> <p><a href="https://www.morton-fraser.com/knowledge-hub/implications-of-the-land-reform-act">"In Scotland the position on the use of e-bikes under the 2003 Act is unclear and requires clarification."</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-350997 Tue, 25 May 2021 14:53:23 +0000 chdot 350997@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Surely if they are street-legal as bikes (max 15mph powered) they will be allowed anywhere bikes are(?) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-350996 Tue, 25 May 2021 14:46:24 +0000 acsimpson 350996@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Here's a Tuesday teaser for the hive mind.</p> <p><strong>Are e-bikes legal off road?</strong></p> <p>The road traffic act give specific permission to e-bikes with certain characteristics to be ridden on the road but there is not such caveats in the Scottish land act.</p> <p>With motor vehicles being explicitly excluded from the access rights does that mean that e-bikes are technically illegal when used off road? (Other than when "constructed or adapted for use by a person who has a disability and which is being used by such a person"). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-299051 Fri, 11 Jan 2019 01:37:49 +0000 minus six 299051@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>@sallyhinch, in @bax's defence that cat really looks Russian</em></p> <p><a href="https://twitter.com/sallyhinch/status/745007941397397505" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/sallyhinch/status/745007941397397505</a></p> <p>totally, magnificently, ruski </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-295869 Thu, 15 Nov 2018 21:18:21 +0000 HankChief 295869@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>LivD - depends if it was causing a nuisance or not...</p> <p>Spotted a full-suss MTB on Corstorphine Road with a large rear hub wizzed passed me with his feet not moving... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19272&page=2#post-295868 Thu, 15 Nov 2018 20:25:56 +0000 minus six 295868@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@sallyinch great to finally put a name to a cat i've admired from afar for so long</p> <p>anyway just as well its your neighbours concern as, lets face it, that kitchen floor could do with a good scrub, eh </p>