http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Time to be optimistic! en Tue, 19 May 2026 16:24:58 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415&page=2#post-301946 Fri, 22 Feb 2019 17:15:54 +0000 Morningsider 301946@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>One for the Tories to chew on - buried in Appendix 1 are the results to a question on the Workplace Parking Levy:</p> <p>47% fully support<br /> 24% somewhat support<br /> 28% do not support<br /> 1% not answered </p> <p>That's 71% support for the "hated SNP car park tax". </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415&page=2#post-301940 Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:42:40 +0000 Stickman 301940@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Transport Committee paper:</p> <p><a href="http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/60079/item_72_-_edinburgh_connecting_our_city_transforming_our_places_findings_of_public_engagement_and_next_steps" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/60079/item_72_-_edinburgh_connecting_our_city_transforming_our_places_findings_of_public_engagement_and_next_steps</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415&page=2#post-301935 Fri, 22 Feb 2019 15:27:26 +0000 Harts Cyclery 301935@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Anyway, as I was saying:</p> <p><a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/old-town-roads-to-close-once-a-month-ahead-of-radical-transformation-1-4877671" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/old-town-roads-to-close-once-a-month-ahead-of-radical-transformation-1-4877671</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415&page=2#post-300583 Sat, 02 Feb 2019 13:45:41 +0000 crowriver 300583@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm just back from Amsterdam, where I duly hired a bike (3 speed upright) and used it to get around. As anyone who has done this can tell you, it's really very pleasant to cycle around the city. However while there is segregated infrastructure, especially around main roads, there is relatively little in the main city centre. Quite a lot of UK style "on road" cycle lanes and in many cases no lane at all. However because nearly everyone cycles at least some of the time, this is rarely a problem. Drivers are more respectful and careful around cyclists. And yes, nearly everyone cycles in normal clothes, including women in high heeled boots etc. I did spot one guy in lycra with a helmet on a road racing bike but that was highly unusual. Also saw quite a few drop handlebar vintage racers being pedalled (in ordinary clothes) as well as the ubiquitous city bikes. </p> <p>One way Amsterdam seems to keep traffic under control in the centre is very little on street parking anywhere - you still get delivery vans parked up on the pavement etc. but most cars are in underground car parks. Also an easy to understand one way system either side of canals, coupled with rising bollards in certain locations that presumably only let certain vehicles through or at certain times of day. Because there are so many people on bikes narrower streets have signs reading "Bicycles are guests" (in Dutch) to avoid folk hurtling down narrow crowded alleyways.</p> <p>In general, none of the aggro between drivers and cyclists you see in the UK. I did witness a collision - between a cyclist and a pedestrian on a segregated cycle way. It seemed the person on foot was a tourist. As you'll know, there are a lot of tourists in Amsterdam (of which of course I was one). I'm glad I left before the weekend took hold as the crowds on Damrak yesterday were formidable. Imagine the Royal Mile during the Edinburgh Festival, but in early February, and you get the idea. Not much fun trying to cycle past that lot.</p> <p>Now I'm back I'm not really looking forward to having to re-grow the eyes in the back of my heads required to keep an eye on menacing motorists bearing down on me on supposedly quiet Edinburgh streets. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415&page=2#post-300545 Fri, 01 Feb 2019 14:44:31 +0000 chdot 300545@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>The report is also clear on how to achieve more cycling. In his introduction to the report Khan’s cycling and walking supremo, Will Norman, notes that Dutch and Danish cities are filled with bikes not due to some cultural quirk, but “because their streets have been designed to prioritise people, not cars”. </p> <p>...</p> <p>To work, cycle routes have to be – both literally and figuratively – joined up. They have to be as useful for a parent meandering to a school or nursery, going to a job and then returning via a shop as they are for a rapid, end-to-end commuter.</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2018/dec/17/londons-new-official-plan-for-cycling-is-bold-but-has-a-major-flaw" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2018/dec/17/londons-new-official-plan-for-cycling-is-bold-but-has-a-major-flaw</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415&page=2#post-300541 Fri, 01 Feb 2019 14:05:30 +0000 Morningsider 300541@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Harts - I 100% agree with you about the need for the development of a coherent, city-wide network of segregated cycle routes - fed by traffic calmed residential streets. This needs to be backed by restrictions on car use and limitations on parking - carrot and stick.</p> <p>I also agree that, if we ever reach that stage, then cycling will become the natural choice for short-mid distance trips. As part of that process, people will generally choose to travel in non-cycling specific clothes.</p> <p>However, I do think that Edinburgh's hilly terrain would still mean that people would continue to favour lighter bikes, with more gears and choose more cycle specific clothing - simply for its breathability. In addition, I see a role for electric bikes in Edinburgh, again due to the terrain.</p> <p>I suppose the point I was trying to make earlier, was that it is fine for cycle campaigners to criticise governments for their poor efforts - particularly a failure to deliver on fine words and good intentions. However, I don't think it is fine for cycle campaigners to criticise individuals for "doing cycling wrong" - whether that be for the bike they use or the clothes they wear.</p> <p>What is it that tips someone in Edinburgh today from being a non-cyclist to a cyclist? If it's a hi-vis jacket, helmet, retina-searing lights or something I can't even think of, then I say good luck to them. Whatever it takes to get them to push that bike out of the door for the first time and think "I can do this". </p> <p>Should anyone wanting to cycle they have to do this? No - it is simply a sad reflection on the reality of cycling in Edinburgh today. I hope this changes. </p> <p>Are Edinburgh cyclists responsible for putting others off cycling through their choice of clothes, bike or anything else? No.</p> <p>I genuinely think we agree on pretty much everything. Possibly the forum format doesn't really lend itself to nuanced argument (or more likely, I haven't expressed myself properly). Always up for a chat at PY or CCE beers. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415&page=2#post-300534 Fri, 01 Feb 2019 13:11:34 +0000 Harts Cyclery 300534@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Morningsider, I think you are missing his point (and mine and others) about cycle culture. When you have cycling as a normal mode of transport, it's just people (all people in whatever clothes they prefer to wear) riding bikes. They dress for their destination, not for cycling per se. If it's cold they wear a big coat. If it's warm they wear t-shirt and shorts. </p> <p>It's only people who are cycling significant distances that actually have to dress for cycling and that's great - good for them! But it's not mass cycling, it's more of a sporting pursuit which doubles as transport. Wonderful, but only appealing to a tiny minority of the travelling public. </p> <p>The gains are in journey under 5 miles and especially under 3 miles. Most normal people could comfortably cycle that far without dressing up specially or feeling like it's an athletic undertaking and that's the people we need to get on bikes.</p> <p>This, of course, needs proper cycle infrastructure - which is what he and I and others are espousing. If you want mass cycling, you need proper, safe cycle infrastructure so that people don't feel the need to wear hi-viz or (whisper it) helmets.</p> <p>Everyone on a bicycle is a hero, but we could have many more heroes if we built some infrastructure that made most people want to ride a bike. And you can do that whether or not your city is hilly or flat.</p> <p>Re ebikes, MCA has a technical issue with them re the infrastructure pressures they're creating in the Netherlands, whereby they are now having to divide cycle lanes for bikes and ebikes, because of the speed differential. I understood this was mostly an issue with speedbikes (45km/h, illegal here) but he insists pedelecs (25km/h) are an issue too. </p> <p>We are soooo far away from this being a problem (and because we have lots of hills) this is something we don't really have to worry about, but it's a big part of his objection to them). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415&page=2#post-300380 Wed, 30 Jan 2019 16:59:19 +0000 chdot 300380@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://dundeenorthernlinks.comWell" rel="nofollow">https://dundeenorthernlinks.comWell</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415&page=2#post-300377 Wed, 30 Jan 2019 16:00:06 +0000 LaidBack 300377@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Mikael Colville-Andersen is certainly getting lots of feedback on his assertion that e-bikes are for lazy people!</p> <p>Did remind me though that Danish / continental style upright cycling is seen by many as the real thing. A proper bike should be accessorised with style as a bike is extension of your clothing. (Aka cycle chic).</p> <p>Altura Night Vision jackets, helmets and especially recumbent bikes are all obstacles to his 'normalisation' of cycling (!). Cargo bikes fitness in his view depends on power unit.<br /> MCA could apply the same aesthetic &amp; appropriateness to car users. Then we would only encourage good looking cars into our streets :-)</p> <p>I'm cool with all the variants as this isn't Copenhagen and we need alliances not divisions. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415&page=2#post-300376 Wed, 30 Jan 2019 15:42:18 +0000 Morningsider 300376@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Harts - I think its great (particularly given the current political climate) when people can agree to disagree on issues. </p> <p>His arguments against e-bikes are nonsensical, as are his views on cycle specific clothing - thankfully it's government policy that really drives modal choice, not my (ahem) "fashion sense".</p> <p>It's easy to argue that "the cycle culture" involves three-speed town bikes and woollen coats when you are fit, have no fears over personal safety and live in a pancake-flat city with hundreds of miles of segregated cycle lane. While there is much to admire in this approach, it is not all applicable to a city built on hills with the most rudimentary of cycle infrastructure. There is room for more than one cycle culture. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415&page=2#post-300375 Wed, 30 Jan 2019 15:41:02 +0000 gembo 300375@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Mc-A is putting the FU back into Urban Design.</p> <p>In my younger days I was in Car Wash and smoking one rolled up cigarette whilst rolling another and lighting it before I noticed I had one already going. Some people at the other table mistook this for a Fringe performance. THis other table was out drinking with someone who they profoundly disagreed with (he was a tube) but he was buying all the drink (he was a tube about that too) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415&page=2#post-300372 Wed, 30 Jan 2019 14:53:54 +0000 I were right about that saddle 300372@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>It's possible to think that people broadly do good, and whose opinions, in general, you agree with, without agreeing with everything single thing they say/do/think.</em></p> <p>For what it's worth I think it's a good idea to be able to have a beer with people you broadly <em>disagree</em> with and who you think are doing harm as long as that harm isn't intentional or grotesque. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300369 Wed, 30 Jan 2019 14:31:04 +0000 chdot 300369@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yes. </p> <p>There are times when he comes across as a misguided attention seeker. </p> <p><a href="https://twitter.com/magnatom/status/1090295179041558528" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/magnatom/status/1090295179041558528</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300368 Wed, 30 Jan 2019 14:26:55 +0000 Harts Cyclery 300368@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@morningsider haha. I know all about his rather unhinged views on ebikes. I spoke to him about it in Dundee last week over a coffee. I said I thought they were a valuable addition to urban mobility. We had a laugh about his intemperate tweets on the subject. </p> <p>I even had a beer with him after the event where we had a laugh on other things. It's possible to think that people broadly do good, and whose opinions, in general, you agree with, without agreeing with everything single thing they say/do/think. </p> <p>He thinks they're an undemocratic nuisance to the democratisation of urban spaces because of their cost and anti-social speed. I think he's wrong. Howbowdat? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300367 Wed, 30 Jan 2019 14:13:43 +0000 Morningsider 300367@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Harts - <a href="https://twitter.com/colvilleandersn/status/1089940142373122053">this tweet</a> might change your mind about MCA:</p> <p>Warning - non-CCE language used. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300293 Tue, 29 Jan 2019 18:13:36 +0000 sallyhinch 300293@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Here's the breakdown of the Scottish Government's active travel budget spending. </p> <p><a href="https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/43939/active-travel-budget-allocation-2018-2019.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/43939/active-travel-budget-allocation-2018-2019.pdf</a></p> <p>I'll leave it to the rest of you to discuss if this is grounds for optimism or not. I'd say it depends on whether you're comparing Scotland with the rest of the UK, or the rest of Europe </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300212 Mon, 28 Jan 2019 20:20:47 +0000 gkgk 300212@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"a car parking ban likely in and around George Street" ..mentions an Edinburgh councillor in his <a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/edinburgh-council-should-buy-in-to-new-shopping-habits-john-mclellan-1-4861387">opinion piece in EN</a> last Thursday. Maybe part of the upcoming Feb good news. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300198 Mon, 28 Jan 2019 17:40:42 +0000 PS 300198@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yep. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300196 Mon, 28 Jan 2019 17:33:03 +0000 chdot 300196@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“demonstrating popular support for de-vehicularising”</p> <p>Which is part of the problem.</p> <p>“I've heard some Councillors say that it hasn't reached enough people to reliably do that yet”</p> <p>And what are <em>they</em> doing to encourage/persuade more people?</p> <p>“I'd suggest everyone piles onto it with positive thoughts about a liveable, walkable and cyclable city”</p> <p>Generally I think CCEers, Spokes types, hard core Living Streeters and, above all, those with any involvement with PoP (even just turning up for an hour one year) have done rather a lot.</p> <p>Time for SG to make it easier for council’s to do more, for CEC to do much more - both the politicians and officials.</p> <p>Importing one person from Sustrans to (try very hard to) somehow ‘encourage’ a whole new mindset might seem like buck passing of the highest order.</p> <p>(Other opinions are available.) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300193 Mon, 28 Jan 2019 17:17:54 +0000 PS 300193@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_running">Street running railways</a></p> <p>Some of the German ones are very pretty.</p> <p>I like the positive vibes, and in government I do sense more of a feeling of needing to build what we want the future to be rather than what flawed transport models say we should build, but it will need all the help it can get when it meets the hostility of the usual vocal minority.</p> <p>The Edinburgh City Vision 2050 seems to be one of the Council's main ways of demonstrating popular support for de-vehicularising; however, I've heard some Councillors say that it hasn't reached enough people to reliably do that yet so I'd suggest everyone piles onto it with positive thoughts about a liveable, walkable and cyclable city. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300171 Mon, 28 Jan 2019 06:09:10 +0000 chdot 300171@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/814238/copenhagen-urban-designer-mikael-colville-andersen-slams-dundee-waterfront-road-system-as-something-from-the-1950s/" rel="nofollow">https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/814238/copenhagen-urban-designer-mikael-colville-andersen-slams-dundee-waterfront-road-system-as-something-from-the-1950s/</a></p> <p><a href="https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/815041/revamped-and-reopened-dundee-port-shared-use-path-connects-broughty-ferry-and-city-centre-for-walkers-and-cyclists/" rel="nofollow">https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/815041/revamped-and-reopened-dundee-port-shared-use-path-connects-broughty-ferry-and-city-centre-for-walkers-and-cyclists/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300128 Sat, 26 Jan 2019 17:36:20 +0000 crowriver 300128@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Different from a councillor being an actual Champion of Cycling, no one appears that keen on this job?"</p> <p>A poisoned chalice, so not surprising. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300123 Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:11:03 +0000 gembo 300123@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@frenchy, no being active travel champion is more internal. Different from a councillor being an actual Champion of Cycling, no one appears that keen on this job? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300121 Sat, 26 Jan 2019 14:28:44 +0000 Frenchy 300121@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Daisy gives me a nod most days now and I have recently been dragooned into being an Active Travel Champion.</em></p> <p>Congratulations. Is this in lieu of any councillors willing/able to do the job? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300120 Sat, 26 Jan 2019 14:20:18 +0000 gembo 300120@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Daisy gives me a nod most days now and I have recently been dragooned into being an Active Travel Champion.</p> <p>There will now be 12 of us. I think my first proposal is going to be to expand this to anyone else I can find. I would think of the six regular cyclists in my own staff team we can get a few more.</p> <p>My thinking here is that just cycling isn't enough. To combat council employees not just driving but using regs incorrectly to stop proper signs going in etc all cyclists need to be activists. Then there will be more cycling activists than drivers who will block cycling schemes on very selfish grounds as well as work related grounds. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300118 Sat, 26 Jan 2019 13:24:21 +0000 Greenroofer 300118@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>When I was little, Weymouth was our local ferry port for trips to France. I remember travelling in the car right behind the train as it drove down the road, and seeing the last coach, with all its buffers and pipework looming above us. Trains are much <em>bigger</em> than cars, particularly when you're 10. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300116 Sat, 26 Jan 2019 13:00:06 +0000 Stickman 300116@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I’m sure that Daisy and her team will come up with radical and inspiring plans. However a small section of cycle lane at Roseburn has been delayed for years because of the actions of one man and a few shopkeepers. That will be nothing compared to the fight that will be made against the city centre plans. I don’t think the council coalition has enough political strength or unity to face that down. I really hope I’m wrong. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300114 Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:46:35 +0000 Morningsider 300114@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A train trundling down the street <a href="http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_edin_t/0_edinburgh_transport_railways_kgw_granton_west_harbour_road_crossing_loco_zoom-out.htm">rather closer to home</a>. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300112 Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:27:57 +0000 crowriver 300112@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>What a great wee film. I like the way they just unceremoniously bounced or towed miscreant parked vehicles out of the way. They might need a squad like that once trams start running down Leith Walk...</p> <p>@gembo, they used to have covered pedestrian walkways to both the station and the old Olympia swimming pool (now the site of the V&amp;A). All that segregated infrastructure is gone (not a complete loss as they used to smell of pee), and as a pedestrian or cyclist you face staggered traffic light crossings, with extended waiting on barrier ringed islands in the middle of four or five lanes of fast moving vehicles. One of the reasons why I've not set foot in the V&amp;A Dundee yet... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19415#post-300111 Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:08:47 +0000 davecykl 300111@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I was in Dundee recently to visit the V&amp;A (which is a gift shop enclosed within an interesting piece of building-shaped public art, which also contains pleasant enough, but rather expensive, cafes and restaurants, and happens to have a rather small museum attached (worth <em>a</em> visit, but the Museum of Scotland has nothing to worry about)), and the waterfront is a huge improvement from the utter desolation that it was in the 1990s, but sadly it is still very mediocre, and not at all cycling friendly.</p> <p>The horrid footbridges which used to be the only connection between the station and the actual city are long gone, the ring road death strip has been partly tamed with the introduction of street level traffic lights and pedestrian crossings instead (how radical), the station entrance has been rebuilt with the welcome addition of escalators and lifts, and a new proper frontage entrance within a moderately interesting looking hotel building, and there has been an attempt to restore a more traditional grid street layout along the waterfront proper.</p> <p>Unfortunately, it is only an attempt, and the opportunity to create a people friendly neighbourhood has been squandered. Instead of the old whizzway, there are now parallel four lane one-way streets in opposite directions (do they really, really, need four lanes, they didn't even allocate one lane as a bus/cycle lane, not even ASLs at traffic lights, let alone any more advanced urban design). These streets might "fit" better within the new district gradually being built around them, but, on our visit, although there are now wide pavements/plazas alongside the new road it is really not at all clear whether or not cycling is permitted on them (although I think almost everyone would more naturally do so than risk the monster new roads), and there was certainly no cycle route signposting to offer any directions to any nearby destinations at all. </p> <p>And, sadly, at the V&amp;A, cycle parking was hidden away (and only findable if you were actually taking a wander outside around the building to look at it from all angles) at the far side (nearest the Tay Road Bridge), in a carefully secluded spot with few passers-by, just right to allow bike thieves to operate unobserved, rather than in the surely mind-glowingly obvious location right beside the walkway to the main entrance or next to the Discovery dock, where it would be highly visible, make it clear that visitors coming by bike are welcome, and have high levels of overlook by passing foot traffic, making it harder for bike thieves. </p>