http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: XR Scotland closing North Bridge April 16th en Sun, 19 Apr 2026 08:48:37 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-307128 Mon, 20 May 2019 20:02:41 +0000 edinburgh87 307128@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Blatant thread bump but this could be the most myopic EEN headline ever:</p> <p><a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/traffic-and-travel/edinburgh-traffic-chaos-looms-as-up-to-4000-schoolkids-get-ready-for-climate-change-march-1-4931095" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/traffic-and-travel/edinburgh-traffic-chaos-looms-as-up-to-4000-schoolkids-get-ready-for-climate-change-march-1-4931095</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-305142 Wed, 24 Apr 2019 12:11:10 +0000 jsh 305142@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Having read the Bella article, I was reminded to take a look at what the car free days plan for May the 5th actually is. When I eventually found anything beyond old and vague articles whipping up drivist anger in the EEN, I was very disappointed. The Royal Mile, a couple of side streets, the part of Grassmarket which is already supposed to be a pedestrian zone, and Victoria Street.</p> <p>All of those should be pedestrianised all the time, not just 10am-5pm one Sunday a month. I understand the plan is to work up to an old town loop, but why oh why could we not start off with something more ambitious which would actually show the benefits rather than just giving the selfish drivers something to grumble about without really making a difference for people who enjoy getting out of their cars.</p> <p>I was naively expecting something like the area bordered by Princes Street, North/South Bridge, Lauriston Place, and Melville Drive (excluding all those roads, naturally, wouldn't want to go too far!!) to be free of cars and full of people, and to have it extend well in to the evening for sunshine-filled pints/coffee/dinner outside of all the pubs and restaurants, with a quiet, chilled out vibe. </p> <p>But who would want to live in a city which does things like that? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-305111 Tue, 23 Apr 2019 19:23:29 +0000 gembo 305111@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Saw a fair few cars around the three metre length.in mallorca</p> <p>Single occupant cars in medieval city centre's should all be under three metres long </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-305064 Mon, 22 Apr 2019 22:54:04 +0000 LaidBack 305064@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Looking forward to a car free city.<br /> Chimes in with points made in forum (expletives in this article btw).<br /> XR showed that diy pedestrianising a street or two can be done.<br /> In city centre the sheer amount of tourists also results in an unofficial shared use zone in Lawnmarket. Police don't seem to mind traffic inconvenienced here though.<br /> If CEC do road closures I assume this should be a precursor to more major ones? (Should not assume anything though as primacy of private vehicles is taken as read).<br /> <a href="https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2019/04/17/car-free-futures/" rel="nofollow">https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2019/04/17/car-free-futures/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-305019 Sat, 20 Apr 2019 11:50:42 +0000 chdot 305019@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://twitter.com/alicebrown94/status/1119328650225180673" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/alicebrown94/status/1119328650225180673</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-305006 Fri, 19 Apr 2019 20:24:27 +0000 chdot 305006@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/19/extinction-rebellion-reports-hundreds-of-people-signing-up" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/19/extinction-rebellion-reports-hundreds-of-people-signing-up</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304993 Fri, 19 Apr 2019 14:47:30 +0000 Klaxon 304993@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Cost per mile / per passenger on A380 is lower than many planes </em></p> <p>If full</p> <p>But then I can't really talk my flying miles are significantly above average </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304979 Fri, 19 Apr 2019 00:37:36 +0000 LaidBack 304979@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>STV's Scotland Tonight on Tuesday had a very articulate young XR supporter explaining why the action to pedestrianise North Bridge for a couple of hours was justified. Journalist Anna Burnside took a view saying maybe it was, but tone was a bit dismissive.<br /> Her view was that it was broadly agreed that the world will change completely but that it was not an emergency for many here (yet).</p> <p>To underline that it's 'business as usual' the next news item was the arrival of the A380 Airbus on Emirates route to Glasgow. (Edinburgh only has Boeing 777s on route).<br /> Glasgow Airport might have no tram or rail link, but Scotland's second busiest airport allocated £8 million to build infrastructure to service the Emirates double decker 'super-jumbo'.<br /> Cost per mile / per passenger on A380 is lower than many planes though any supposed environmental credentials are damaged by the vast shopping mall that awaits at Dubai. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304978 Fri, 19 Apr 2019 00:35:06 +0000 chdot 304978@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks. </p> <p>Sorted. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304977 Thu, 18 Apr 2019 23:50:30 +0000 rbrtwtmn 304977@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@chdot - link needs to lose the final " to work </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304976 Thu, 18 Apr 2019 22:59:49 +0000 chdot 304976@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Scotland Yard took the rare step of releasing a detailed statement setting out the difficulties they have faced keeping control of the protests, while avoiding infringing on the activists’ rights to demonstrate. </p> <p>They said demonstrators’ tactic of lying down meant four officers were needed to make an arrest but said there was no legal justification for more draconian tactics, such as kettling and mass-arresting groups, because the demonstrations were peaceful. </p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/18/sajid-javid-calls-for-full-force-of-law-against-extinction-rebellion-protesters" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/18/sajid-javid-calls-for-full-force-of-law-against-extinction-rebellion-protesters</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304965 Thu, 18 Apr 2019 18:06:55 +0000 chdot 304965@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>Three people have been put on remand for a month over an Extinction Rebellion protest in which activists climbed on top of a train at Canary Wharf station in east London. </p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/18/extinction-rebellion-trio-charged-train-protest-canary-wharf" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/18/extinction-rebellion-trio-charged-train-protest-canary-wharf</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304956 Thu, 18 Apr 2019 14:45:20 +0000 toomanybikes 304956@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It does highlight the importance of staying on message for the protesters when speaking to the media though, and not becoming like Occupy Wall Street with 50,000 different ideas. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304950 Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:26:18 +0000 I were right about that saddle 304950@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Frenchy</p> <p>None. It's just childish gibberish. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304949 Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:23:14 +0000 Juanito 304949@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>What I found massively interesting about the closure was how little traffic there was in Newington and other streets leading up to it due to the closure. It shows how much of the traffic is just wanting to go through and isn't interested in accessing anything in the city centre. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304948 Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:07:31 +0000 Frenchy 304948@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>How many blood pressure pills should one take before reading that? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304946 Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:53:12 +0000 Stickman 304946@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/what-i-learned-at-the-extinction-rebellion-protest-john-mclellan-1-4909590/amp" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/what-i-learned-at-the-extinction-rebellion-protest-john-mclellan-1-4909590/amp</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304942 Thu, 18 Apr 2019 09:43:56 +0000 jonty 304942@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yeah QC is obviously still congested because the right decision was made about not increasing capacity. If they had gone to three lanes, 2-4 years feels like about the right amount of time it would take to fill up again (maybe sooner if Scotrail's reputation continued to deteriorate!)</p> <p>As I say, with Leith St etc it's not really clear how much is evaporation and how much is route shift spread around the city. I started commuting from the South on the exact day it shut so I find it hard to judge, but practically speaking there must have been some. North/South bridge were obviously quieter than now, which was lovely, but George IV Bridge I think has quietened down since it's re-opened and I've no idea if it was a year of hellcommutes for Queen's Drive cyclists. (Conversely, I swear there are fewer tailbacks on North Bridge throughout the day now, so either Picardy Place is working more efficiently (lol) or there has been some residual evaporation.)</p> <p> I'm clearly in favour of city centre closures (and do believe in traffic evaporation) but it would be good to know whether in doing so we're just displacing traffic and air quality issues to Holyrood Park for a few years. Knowing that could form part of an argument for tweaking LEZ rules or using Transformation money to beef up the active travel provision in the Park. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304936 Wed, 17 Apr 2019 21:54:36 +0000 Frenchy 304936@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@crowriver - the capacity of the QC is negligibly higher than the FRB though, so there wasn't much induction to be done there. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304935 Wed, 17 Apr 2019 21:41:25 +0000 sallyhinch 304935@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think traffic evaporation can be instantaneous, especially if there's sufficiently hysterical coverage in the media beforehand. There have been several examples of predictions of 'carmageddon' in the US when major roads were due to be closed, that have ended in pretty much normal traffic levels, as people take measures to avoid the widely advertised chaos. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304934 Wed, 17 Apr 2019 21:35:30 +0000 crowriver 304934@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I think induced-demand takes around 2 to 4 years to materialise."</p> <p>That'll be why the Queensferry Crossing has been congested since it opened then.</p> <p>"So I imagine it's the same for evaporation."</p> <p>Recent closures such as Leith Street, festival related closures, and yesterday's North Bridge would seem to suggest otherwise. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304919 Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:33:27 +0000 neddie 304919@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@jonty</p> <p>I think induced-demand takes around 2 to 4 years to materialise. So I imagine it's the same for evaporation. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304917 Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:16:28 +0000 EdinburghCycleCam 304917@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@acsimpson I made the same point on Twitter - I've been told that driving through a give way sign towards a cyclist and missing them by 1-2 inches isn't an offence. But sitting quietly on the road is a public order offence, which can land you 5 years in prison and a £1000 fine.<br /> EDIT: Oh, 12 months and/or £5000 fine - I didn't see the earlier link...</p> <p>Priorities... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304916 Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:02:11 +0000 acsimpson 304916@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>“The mere fact that they managed to find time and resource to arrest any of these protesters shows the extent to which fossil fuel consumption is protected by the state.”</p> <p>I think that’s ‘accidental’, but it certainly demonstrates how skewed priorities are.</em></p> <p>If it's accidental then it's the same sort of accident which leads to complaints about dangerously close passes being brushed under the carpet. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304915 Wed, 17 Apr 2019 15:06:03 +0000 crowriver 304915@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@mgj, they might have been arrested for that, but the charges might be different when they're brought up before the Beak.</p> <p>Section 38(1) of the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010 has a statutory definition of Breach of the Peace which is different from the common law definition, and has potentially harsher penalties too.</p> <p><a href="https://www.mcsporrans.com/breach-of-the-peace.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.mcsporrans.com/breach-of-the-peace.html</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304914 Wed, 17 Apr 2019 14:49:48 +0000 jonty 304914@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'd expect to see bigger queues either end if that were the case but perhaps you're right. I know that traffic evaporation happens in the long term, but practically speaking the second eg. you shut Leith Street you're surely not going to see 100% modal switch/journey abandonment overnight, particularly at rush hour. Perhaps it happens a lot more quickly than I expect though (or maybe the overspill is spread so thinly that it's not noticable?)</p> <p>As I say, I really must dig into traffic count data to see if anything can be gleaned from the Leith St closure. The Open Streets events should also help to provide data about this stuff if traffic elsewhere is monitored effectively. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=4#post-304911 Wed, 17 Apr 2019 13:22:19 +0000 neddie 304911@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>28 lanes and still did not solve congestion!</p> <p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4PW66_g6XA" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4PW66_g6XA</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=3#post-304910 Wed, 17 Apr 2019 13:06:04 +0000 neddie 304910@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@jonty</p> <p><em>you'd see an increase on the routes through the Park given that it's not yet at capacity</em></p> <p>How do you know that it's not at capacity?</p> <p>The capacity of the roadways through the park isn't determined by the fact they look empty most of the time. The capacity is determined by the wait-times at the junctions at either end - the fact that the park roads connect to narrow and congested "feeder" streets at either end.</p> <p>If only a limited number of vehicles can enter and exit the park, then of course the park roads, with very few junctions in between, will appear empty (and hence the resulting speeding, only to get stuck for 5 minutes once reaching the junctions!). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=3#post-304909 Wed, 17 Apr 2019 13:05:30 +0000 unhurt 304909@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@neddie this is my understanding! @jonty I think the above suggests it is precisely traffic "rehydration" - maybe precipitation?</p> <p>Meanwhile in London:<br /> <a href="https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1118478392976990209">Climate-change protesters disrupt London docklands train service</a> - great image on this Reuters tweet. Made me think about how commentary online about XR protests supports the notion that climate &amp; similar protestors are either unemployed unwashed student hippie crusty vegan weirdos who should be dismissed accordingly OR normal citizens in clothes from a shop who have mobile phone and drive and work for a capitalist company hypocrites who should be dismissed accordingly. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19558&page=3#post-304908 Wed, 17 Apr 2019 13:00:02 +0000 neddie 304908@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>If a city had increased its road capacity by 10 percent between 1980 and 1990, then the amount of driving in that city went up by 10 percent. If the amount of roads in the same city then went up by 11 percent between 1990 and 2000, the total number of miles driven also went up by 11 percent. It’s like the two figures were moving in perfect lockstep, changing at the same exact rate.</p> <p>...</p> <p>Interestingly, the effect works in reverse, too. Whenever some city proposes taking lanes away from a road, residents scream that they’re going to create a huge traffic snarl. But the data shows that nothing truly terrible happens. The amount of traffic on the road simply readjusts and overall congestion doesn’t really increase.</p> <p>For instance, Paris in recent decades has had a persistent policy to dramatically downsize and reduce roadways. “Driving in Paris was bad before,” said Duranton. “It’s just as bad, but it’s not much worse.”</em></p> <p><a href="https://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/" rel="nofollow">https://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/</a> </p>