http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Cameron Toll to Bio Quarter en Wed, 08 Apr 2026 06:37:51 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-328590 Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:10:16 +0000 CycleAlex 328590@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It seems the project may have been split into phases. From a <a href="https://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/idoxpa-web/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&amp;keyVal=Q98CBQEWGXY00">transport statement</a> for UofE by SWECO (who are/were the consultants on this project)<br /> <blockquote>It is noted that there is an ongoing separate project which seeks to introduce a segregated<br /> active travel corridor between Cameron Toll and Edinburgh BioQuarter. The junctions and<br /> section of Old Dalkeith Road covered by this TS will be included in Phase 2 of the active<br /> travel project and as such there are no existing active travel designs to consider.</blockquote> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-328245 Thu, 23 Apr 2020 18:09:22 +0000 CycleAlex 328245@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>To clarify, I don't think this is actually a new design - rather just the full design the consultation juxtapositions were based off. I imagine there will be changes when/if the TRO is published.</p> <p>Hopefully at the minimum upping the width from 2m at the Craigmillar Park/Lady Road corner. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-328243 Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:57:17 +0000 toomanybikes 328243@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The retention of the give way at lady road roundabout since the last consultation is properly properly annoying, doubly so with a 7.5m road width at the turning.<br /> I've never seen anybody turn in there with years of commuting across it. I could almost maybe respect a 'confusion' no right of way area with a tight turn for cars into a 2.5m wide lane </p> <p>It does appear to have right of way across Walter Scott Avenue and Craigmillar castle Road. </p> <p>Cameron Toll is also really quite weakly done on second inspection. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-328191 Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:15:52 +0000 I were right about that saddle 328191@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I have written to Cllr MacInnes to ask her not to build this scheme. </p> <p>It's just not good enough. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-328159 Wed, 22 Apr 2020 14:22:56 +0000 neddie 328159@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>2.5m width, dropping to 2.0m on a tight corner at the top of Lady Rd (no doubt hemmed-in by pedestrian guardrail).</p> <p>Completely sub-standard widths.</p> <p>Loss of priority at every junction.</p> <p>No loss of space to motorists whatsoever. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-328157 Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:36:13 +0000 chdot 328157@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Consultants -</p> <p><a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweco" rel="nofollow">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweco</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-328148 Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:09:03 +0000 I were right about that saddle 328148@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If somebody proposed this as the car track they'd be pilloried. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-328142 Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:33:50 +0000 CycleAlex 328142@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>For some reason I don't remember the full designs being available during the consultation, just the juxtapositions - they're now available here should anyone else be rather bored: <a href="https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/26561/ebq-complete-route-overview" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/26561/ebq-complete-route-overview</a></p> <p>TRO planned for this month. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-318399 Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:32:00 +0000 I were right about that saddle 318399@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A woman drove her car into me at the exact point this scheme would start on Craigmillar Park. Carbon copy repeat of the incident with the Historic Scotland bubble car about seven years ago. There was contact, a loud bang and maybe some damage to the car's bodywork. </p> <p>A nice lady on a scooter asked if was OK and I was. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-318274 Sun, 24 Nov 2019 23:49:31 +0000 CycleAlex 318274@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I would be curious to know if drivers actually stop for cyclists at tiger crossings. I'd never heard of them until recently. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-318272 Sun, 24 Nov 2019 22:52:44 +0000 chdot 318272@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://lcc.org.uk/articles/first-tiger-crossing-comes-to-london-cyclists" rel="nofollow">https://lcc.org.uk/articles/first-tiger-crossing-comes-to-london-cyclists</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-318271 Sun, 24 Nov 2019 21:57:58 +0000 Frenchy 318271@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Closes tomorrow. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-318220 Sat, 23 Nov 2019 09:46:29 +0000 Rosie 318220@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>SPOKES RESPONSE TO COUNCIL CONSULTATION ON THE CAMERON TOLL TO BIO-QUARTER CYCLING AND WALKING ROUTE: </p> <p>General Points<br /> 1. We welcome the opportunity to comment on this consultation. As is normal with SPOKES responses, our preference is to send a detailed and customised response rather than complete the questionnaire. </p> <p>2. We very much welcome the proposals to provide an improved and segregated route for cyclists as a safer alternative to the Old Dalkeith Road. Old Dalkeith Rd is very busy with motor traffic, particularly during the “rush hours” but, despite its disadvantages, many cyclists do use this route and would benefit from these proposals. Many more travelling along this route for work, study or routine visits to the RIE might be willing to take up cycling if this safer alternative was provided. </p> <p>3. In addition, we strongly support the proposals for including a cycleway round the north side of Cameron Toll since the existing road is seen as very challenging for cyclists and a formidable deterrent for potential cyclists.</p> <p>4. SPOKES was instrumental in campaigning, some years ago, for the advisory cycle lanes currently found on Old Dalkeith Rd. However, these advisory cycle lanes, although an improvement on the previous position of no provision for cyclists, have clear disadvantages especially where the lanes are dangerously narrow, where they are routinely used for parking cars such as outside the Toyota Garage or are located on the road side of a parking bay We have registered our concern about limitations of the current position on a number of occasions.</p> <p>5. We think that the cycleway should have priority over all the side roads it crosses. We suggest that the plans should be checked to make sure this applies in all cases.</p> <p>6. Our preference would be for 1-way cycleways on each side of the road rather than a 2-way cycleway which requires cyclists to cross the road at various stages in the journey. We appreciate that there are arguments for a 2-way route in this case, for example, proximity of the route to side roads, there are also disadvantages such as potential conflicts between cyclists on the narrow stretch where the terrain encourages much faster speeds in one direction. From a strategic point of view, we are in great danger of building ad hoc and incompatible routes in different parts of Edinburgh that cannot be easily integrated into a comprehensive network. As this is the first proposed, segregated cycleway in Edinburgh to take cyclists into the suburbs we think that there is a case for reconsidering this decision.</p> <p>7. Cameron Toll is not an obvious destination or starting off point for cyclists since it was developed very much with cars in mind and without any consideration for cyclists, essentially a few miserable cycle racks, being added on at a later stage. The roundabouts/gyratories that have been built to facilitate access by car are positively dangerous as is the 50m cycle path provided across the middle of the space between the car park and the railway bridge. In short, journeys by bike will almost always start and finish elsewhere than Cameron Toll. The most obvious larger, nearby starting points/destinations are Kings Buildings and Pollock Halls and it is important to consider how cyclists to and from these places to the RIE/ Bio-Quarter will navigate their way safely round Cameron Toll. The proposals do include some measures which help here but more is required, particularly providing for access to the cycleway from Dalkeith Rd and vice versa.</p> <p>8. We would ideally like to see the project extended south from the BioQuarter to the boundary with Midlothian at The Wisp. We understand that Midlothian Council will soon be undertaking a feasibility study for a Wisp-Sheriffhall project, and it would make sense for this to connect to a cycleway along Old Dalkeith Road from The Wisp to the RIE. It would presumably be cost-effective to include that section in this project, rather than completing it at a later date.</p> <p>Detailed Comments</p> <p>9. We welcome the proposal for the protected cycleway to start in Craigmillar Park with access to Wilton Rd by way of a toucan crossing. Wilton Rd is relatively quiet compared with Esslemont Rd and use of this route to and from Kings Buildings would also avoid the difficult, multiple junction traffic lights where Esslemont Rd intersects with Lady Rd, Craigmillar Park and Liberton Rd. But it is indirect and, if adopted, would require careful and comprehensive signage. </p> <p>10. We also strongly support the proposal to extend the segregated cycleway along Lady Rd as this is crucial to allow cyclists to navigate round the very hostile barrier presented by Cameron Toll itself. </p> <p>11. Although the precise way in which the route then gets to the western side of Old Dalkeith Rd is not entirely clear. It seems to be the case that cyclists will need to cross 4 junctions – 2 on Lady Rd and 2 on access roads to and from the Cameron Toll car park. This seems complicated and an alternative might be for the route to cross over to the south side of Lady Rd by converting the existing pedestrian crossing into a toucan and using the space currently given over to shrubs and a taxi rank for the route itself. This might provide a simpler and quicker alternative.</p> <p>12. Cyclists arriving from Dalkeith Road or Peffermill Road are ignored and have to find their own way to and from the cycleway using the existing gyratory. Alternatives are required and should be included in the final plans,</p> <p>13. Leaving aside our comments on the merits of 1 way versus 2-way cycle ways, we support the proposal to use the grass strip by the side of Inch Park for a 3m cycleway followed by a similar sized segregated cycleway taken from space on the road. </p> <p>14. We suggest that consideration should be given to a toucan crossing to allow cyclists and pedestrians to cross to the road leading up to the recycling site. This would allow direct access by local residents to the very popular play park in Craigmillar Castle Park and also provide access for Inch residents, by bike, to the new shops and facilities in Craigmillar and to the Innocent cycleway via Hay Avenue. However, the road up to the Recycling Centre itself is in very poor condition and unsuitable for cycling so to make this work would require the construction of a new (possibly shared) footpath and cycleway.</p> <p>15. South of Ravenswood, the proposed cycleway is reduced to 2m in width. This is unacceptably narrow given that cyclists travelling north will be coming down hill and, therefore, potentially travelling at speed. </p> <p>16. We understand, from discussion at the consultation event at Cameron Toll, that you are proposing that Kingston Ave is to be linked to the cycleway with a layout similar to that used at the east end of Rankeillor St where cyclists cross to the off side of the road. For this to work, space will need to be taken from the road to create a safe area for cyclists to wait and, as a result, a sharper turn for cars. </p> <p>17. At Craigmillar Castle Rd, there is yet further crossing although it is not clear whether this is to be a toucan or a tiger crossing and after a very short stretch of 2.5 m width, the cycleway reverts to the unsatisfactory 2m width up towards Little France Crescent. "The junction with Craigmillar Castle Road is a serious cyclist injury blackspot, with 3 reported serious and 3 slight injuries during the last 12 years.</p> <p>18. We are concerned to note that View 7 shows 3 potential crossings of Little France Crescent for cyclists coming from the Bio-Quarter and wishing to travel south. The traffic light settings need to be arranged to ensure that cyclists can cross all 3 together.</p> <p>19. It would be helpful to see how the cycleway links into the existing and proposed cycleways on the RIE and Bio-Quarter site. </p> <p>Conclusion<br /> 20. The proposals are a significant improvement on what currently exists but we think there is scope for further improvement. We would be happy to discuss our comments and suggestions with you.<br /> <a href="http://www.spokes.org.uk/documents/members-campaigning/edinburgh/south-edinburgh/" rel="nofollow">http://www.spokes.org.uk/documents/members-campaigning/edinburgh/south-edinburgh/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-318219 Sat, 23 Nov 2019 09:12:48 +0000 wingpig 318219@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Closes 25th Nov.<br /> Bump.<br /> <a href="https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/ebqconsultation/" rel="nofollow">https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/sfc/ebqconsultation/</a><br /> Reindeer Revolution has been plugging it heavily on Twitter but doesn't like the thread drift here. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-317088 Mon, 04 Nov 2019 15:28:18 +0000 Frenchy 317088@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There are bike racks at the front as well, they're just even more tucked away than those at the rear.</p> <p>You can just make out a bike parked in them on <a href="https://www.google.com/maps/@55.927708,-3.1641763,3a,15y,239.67h,88.21t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1skMA4pAVgqmBhyc9nDfU-lQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DkMA4pAVgqmBhyc9nDfU-lQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D292.48248%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656">Street View.</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=3#post-317077 Mon, 04 Nov 2019 14:39:08 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur 317077@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Could the Lady Road crossing be Toucanised? I've only cycled to Cameron Toll a handful of times, but I seem to remember the only bike parking I could find was tucked away out of sight of the rear entrance and you had to cycle though most of the car park to get there. Racks at the 'front' entrance would feel more safe and secure. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=2#post-317071 Mon, 04 Nov 2019 14:11:53 +0000 I were right about that saddle 317071@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Typically I might join the route at Lady Road/Craigmillar Park and leave to get my messages in Cameron Toll. </p> <p>The downhill section of the road to the roundabout is best ridden fast and bold in primary in lane 2. Not for the faint-hearted. It would be awful if a cycle lane went in that didn't make the turn into a massive retail site safer and easier. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=2#post-317064 Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:21:56 +0000 Frenchy 317064@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Nicely put.</em></p> <p>Indeed.</p> <p>I suppose some rethinking of wishing to avoid "uncontrolled side road crossings" is required (on my part). <em>Cyclists</em> can and will be coming into and out of those side roads too, of course. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=2#post-317062 Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:16:20 +0000 I were right about that saddle 317062@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@neddie</p> <p>Nicely put. I'll be making that point to Councilor MacInnes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=2#post-317054 Mon, 04 Nov 2019 12:10:25 +0000 neddie 317054@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The problem with bidirectional lanes is that the council are only considering cyclists as using that one set <em>linear </em>route.</p> <p>But this isn't how cycling works. Cyclists wish to be able to take a multitude of routes (in much the same way as drivers do), entering and exiting the route wherever they please.</p> <p>A bidirectional route makes it much harder to join the route from the other arms of Cameron Toll roundabout (or indeed anywhere else along it).</p> <p>The best solution would be to have a bidirectional cycle lane around the entire Cameron Toll roundabout, allowing cyclists to take the <em>shortest </em>route around it to their destination. That would be true cyclist (&amp; pedestrian) priority. Take the space from motor lanes as necessary.</p> <p>We don't need to continue with multi-lane junctions for cars - this is a climate emergency.</p> <p>Better still (as others have pointed out), rebuild the entire roundabout as proper integrated transport exchange, with the South Suburban railway reopened in some form (e.g. tram/trains) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=2#post-317042 Mon, 04 Nov 2019 11:04:05 +0000 I were right about that saddle 317042@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Frenchy</p> <p>The wall got a few weeks of masonry repairs earlier this year.</p> <p>I consider the path behind it to be 'mine' as I've cleared two fallen trees from it and run on it regularly. If the wall were moved I'd probably have to remake a large section of it but as a good citizen... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=2#post-317039 Mon, 04 Nov 2019 10:52:16 +0000 chdot 317039@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“If that's a realistic value it'd be well worth it”</p> <p>Would agree. </p> <p>If it was a road widening...</p> <p>However, suspect it might be a lot more. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=2#post-317038 Mon, 04 Nov 2019 10:41:27 +0000 Frenchy 317038@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Been thinking about the unidirectional/bidirectional argument here.</p> <p>For a round trip between the Cameron Toll gyratory and the hospital, I think:</p> <p>Unidirectional lanes would involve 10 uncontrolled side road crossings.</p> <p>The bidirectional lane would involve 2 uncontrolled side road crossings.</p> <p>Perhaps I just have Stockholm Syndrome from speaking to planning consultants too often, but that seems a pretty strong argument in favour of a bidirectional lane <em>in this specific case</em>. To be balanced, of course by taking the likely speeds of downhill cyclists into account. </p> <p>The consultant I spoke to at the exhibition thing threw the figure of £250k into the air when we were discussing the cost of moving the wall back on the east side of Old Dalkeith Road to make more space for the cycle lane(s). If that's a realistic value it'd be well worth it, especially since the wall is falling down in places and, presumably, will need repaired at some point anyway. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=2#post-316905 Fri, 01 Nov 2019 12:48:37 +0000 drnoble 316905@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I like the style of the visual mockups, makes it a bit easier to visualise than the engineering drawings that have been used previously. However, it is somewhat annoying that producing more designs is what the budget is being spent on rather than actually building stuff.</p> <p>My biggest concern is on the first visualisation, with huge potential for conflict between pedestrians, bus passengers, and cyclists at the Craigmillar Park/Lady Road corner.Four key conflict points could be removed by relocating the cycleway to the inside of the corner, creating an area of pavement next to the road with the 2 bus stops and 2 road crossings. I have tried to show this in a quick edit: </p> <p><a href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/0k4ofrdl7cuya1t/View%201%20-%20Design%20edit.jpg?dl=0" rel="nofollow">https://www.dropbox.com/s/0k4ofrdl7cuya1t/View%201%20-%20Design%20edit.jpg?dl=0</a> (not sure how to get this to show inline </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=2#post-316426 Fri, 25 Oct 2019 19:50:54 +0000 gembo 316426@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I went with segregated paths are good and all the rest is a bit shit sorry </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=2#post-316399 Fri, 25 Oct 2019 13:10:14 +0000 I were right about that saddle 316399@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>OK I have asked them not to build this until they're willing to;</p> <p>1) Take space from cars not buses<br /> 2) Make the paths wide enough for side-by-side cycling<br /> 3) Make the paths continuous</p> <p>I have pointed out that the scheme prioritises the middle and upper classes over working people on the bus.</p> <p>'Cycle campaigner opposes cycle lane' makes me a bit like the Roseburn Rasputin but hey-ho. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=2#post-316091 Mon, 21 Oct 2019 12:31:41 +0000 toomanybikes 316091@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@jonty very variable. Sometimes maybe a hundred metres past Bridgend. Mostly no queuing at all..</p> <p>Never picked up how time correlated with queuing though </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=2#post-316055 Sat, 19 Oct 2019 21:58:42 +0000 jonty 316055@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>How far back up Old Dalkeith Road do the queues generally get? It seems like they would have to be fairly long for the bus lane loss to have an impact. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=2#post-316028 Fri, 18 Oct 2019 20:22:47 +0000 Frenchy 316028@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Oh, also asked about the chicanes on the Bridgend-Craigmillar path and on the path between Glenallan Drive and Dinmont Drive.</p> <p>They already had plans to replace the chicane at Bridgend with a bollard, but are going to look at getting the others removed as well. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19898&page=2#post-316027 Fri, 18 Oct 2019 18:45:44 +0000 I were right about that saddle 316027@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Would unidirectional lanes be worth the loss of the bus lane?</em></p> <p>Because south Edinburgh has has SFA in 30 years? </p>