http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Should sport cycling be segregated? en Sun, 31 May 2026 12:07:02 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-319312 Wed, 11 Dec 2019 14:25:46 +0000 I were right about that saddle 319312@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Can't say I'm any further forward in thinking about this subject. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-319159 Mon, 09 Dec 2019 14:13:03 +0000 toomanybikes 319159@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>an update in the science since the radiolab podcast: <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/oct/15/testosterone-boosts-womens-athletic-performance-study-shows" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/oct/15/testosterone-boosts-womens-athletic-performance-study-shows</a></p> <p>"Circulating levels of testosterone rose from 0.9 nmol/litre of blood to 4.3 nmol/L in the women given the hormone cream. This was below the recent 5 nmol/L IAAF limit and below the normal male range of 8-29 nmol/L.</p> <p>Running time to exhaustion increased significantly by 21.17 seconds (8.5%) in the testosterone group, compared with those given the inactive substance. The group given the hormone also had significant changes in lean muscle mass, gaining 923g vs 135g overall and 398g vs 91g in their legs."</p> <p>The fact that at-the-time-of-competing testosterone appears to only be part of the story of male/female differences in athletic capability (as the podcast discusses), surely adds to concerns around transgender athletes, rather than alleviating them. (Although it could also just be that complex non-linear effects of testosterone levels makes accurately modelling the effects really really hard).</p> <p>Also, being disadvantaged in your life shouldn't have any bearing on what sporting category you're in. 7 foot tall men shouldn't be allowed to play in the wNBA if they come from deprived communities. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-319149 Mon, 09 Dec 2019 12:54:16 +0000 gembo 319149@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks Chrisfl, I will check out as I find the dialogue here to be a series of non sequiturs. I know that is rich coming from me. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-319136 Mon, 09 Dec 2019 11:32:26 +0000 chrisfl 319136@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There's a really good radiolab podcast on this at:</p> <p><a href="https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/dutee" rel="nofollow">https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/dutee</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-319126 Sun, 08 Dec 2019 23:11:53 +0000 gembo 319126@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>What is this thread about? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-319125 Sun, 08 Dec 2019 23:10:15 +0000 unhurt 319125@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yeah no. This topic is more like the endless mid 2000s forum rounds of "should gay people be allowed to [x]? Here is my straight person thought experiment where I apply my universal experience and logic. (Later I will wonder why everyone on this forum seems to be straight. Are we not the MOST WELCOMING?)" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-319124 Sun, 08 Dec 2019 22:53:25 +0000 stiltskin 319124@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Or alternatively we could just ban discussion of anything remotely controversial </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-319122 Sun, 08 Dec 2019 22:39:35 +0000 unhurt 319122@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I have a better idea for a topic. "Should people who are members of several privileged social groups pontificate about the sporting participation of people who face huge obstacles just getting on with their everyday lives (while intentionally or not suggesting they a. aren't who they say they are and/or b. are cheaters) because they think it's Just A Debate (and the rhetoric and outcome doesn't affect them at all so it's just Intellectual Fun Times for them and not hugely alienating, exhausting and miserable to participate in.)". </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-319102 Sun, 08 Dec 2019 15:00:27 +0000 I were right about that saddle 319102@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thinking more about this a system of sporting segregation seems to need to meet these criteria;</p> <p>1) Based on universal human characteristics.<br /> 2) All humans should fall into only one category.<br /> 3) Based on characteristics that can be independently determined by an external observer.<br /> 4) Based on characteristics that are linked to measurable differences in sporting performance.</p> <p>So, for instance, segregation by race (no matter how abhorrent on moral grounds) would fail 1) because it isn't universal and 2) because there are no scientific methods for determining race despite the best efforts of some horrible people over the years.</p> <p>My ideas;</p> <p><strong>No segregation</strong></p> <p>Pro: Passes all four tests.<br /> Con: Would probably mean an end to female participation in elite sport other than ultra-endurance events.</p> <p><strong>Segregation by sexual genotype</strong></p> <p>Pro: Passes all four tests.<br /> Con: Requires athletes to submit samples for genetic testing. Might require the previously male class to be open to any human with at least one Y chromosome in their genotype, but I don't think that would change much practically.</p> <p>Can anyone think of other workable segregation rules and frameworks? Is my framework fair? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-319080 Sat, 07 Dec 2019 23:58:45 +0000 acsimpson 319080@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Perhaps we should add a handicap to all sport. Handicaps could be based on your best time over the past 18 months. I'm not sure it would be easy to work outside a velodrome though. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-319076 Sat, 07 Dec 2019 20:16:05 +0000 Frenchy 319076@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>So does anyone have a better idea for segregating sport than by sexual genotype? </em></p> <p>Should trans men be competing in women's events? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-319074 Sat, 07 Dec 2019 19:56:57 +0000 I were right about that saddle 319074@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So does anyone have a better idea for segregating sport than by sexual genotype? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-319011 Fri, 06 Dec 2019 11:16:58 +0000 Baldcyclist 319011@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Stronger bones, more lung capacity, bigger muscle mass.</p> <p>It's a hard topic, and not one I'd like to have to be embroiled in having to sort out. </p> <p>These people feel like (are) women, and so should be treated as such, but how do you manage their genetic advantage? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-319010 Fri, 06 Dec 2019 11:07:54 +0000 toomanybikes 319010@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's always going to be a tricky topic with transgender women. Supplemental testosterone (steroids) is outlawed in the mens categories, and men have more testosterone than women, so women who used to be men are likely to have residual benefit from that extra testosterone. If a male athlete said "but I stopped taking steroids 2 years ago", that probably wouldn't fly, so I don't know how much the same logic should apply to transgender athletes. I know a big strategy is to steroid up in the off season when they're not drug testing and then retain that muscle mass during the testing season despite having stopped taking them.</p> <p>Also depending on the sport (e.g. boxing and MMA), bone structure differences between men and women (e.g. wider shoulders) could provide a significant advantage that no amount of time is going to remove. </p> <p>I think her logic that "I'm not the best in the world, so it's not an issue" isn't exactly the best. She could, in theory, just be a bad athlete who's being boosted by some male advantages to becoming a good athlete. Obviously elite athleticism takes more than just a Y chromosome.</p> <p>In the end, we'll probably wind up with good data that shows how much /if at all this is an issue. However, it's hard to say anything concretely at the moment for every sport because the pool of transgender athletes is still really small.</p> <p>Also if the IOC says competing is a human right, surely then they violated human rights by banning all the doped up Russians.. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=19977#post-318990 Thu, 05 Dec 2019 19:00:55 +0000 I were right about that saddle 318990@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I can see why elite sport might be segregated by sex and equally why it might not segregated at all. ('Run what ya brung' racing.)</p> <p>But I do struggle to see why it would be segregated on any other basis. </p> <p><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/opinion/i-won-a-world-championship-some-people-arent-happy.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/opinion/i-won-a-world-championship-some-people-arent-happy.html</a> </p>