http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Dundas plaque en Thu, 21 May 2026 05:11:27 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-374125 Mon, 18 Mar 2024 23:33:42 +0000 chdot 374125@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>Council installs new slavery plaque at Edinburgh's Melville Monument </p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-68597359" rel="nofollow">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-68597359</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-374113 Mon, 18 Mar 2024 13:45:01 +0000 Frenchy 374113@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The plaque has been reinstalled: <a href="https://twitter.com/AdamRamsay/status/1769675142324453508" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/AdamRamsay/status/1769675142324453508</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-371326 Fri, 27 Oct 2023 17:09:13 +0000 chdot 371326@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>“The plaque was affixed to heritable property by the City of Edinburgh Council (CEC), on the faith of an improperly obtained Planning Permission. By being affixed, it became part of the heritable property. It is accordingly not the property of CEC.”</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/henry-dundas-descendant-refuses-return-27990064" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/henry-dundas-descendant-refuses-return-27990064</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-370726 Mon, 25 Sep 2023 19:37:34 +0000 gembo 370726@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Jonty, not sure about that, the statue was paid for by the officers and men serving in the Navy at the time. I think he paid their wages but how I don’t know.</p> <p>But good point as not sure if wee Boaby D has asked the Navy if he can take off the plaque for his nefarious ends.</p> <p>Note I have no idea what height Bob is though I do suspect taller than the height of nonsense. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-370717 Mon, 25 Sep 2023 09:52:43 +0000 jonty 370717@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Wasn't he also probably embezzling huge amounts of money from the Navy at one point? Can't help but wonder if the family uproar is partly to prevent deeper examination of other more petty family disgraces (and avoid forensic accounting on any inherited wealth...) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-370712 Sun, 24 Sep 2023 10:49:02 +0000 14Westfield 370712@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If abolishing slavery were an issue that one man like Dundas was able to personally delay, I don’t see how it’s eventual resolution once he left the scene could cost 40% of GDP.</p> <p>It’s easy for us to forget what a monumental commitment the was when a change in Britain meant enforcement around the globe. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-370693 Sat, 23 Sep 2023 15:42:41 +0000 gembo 370693@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I don’t think the other historians like Tam Devine are disputing Dundas. As the person who slowed down abolition and therefore assisted the ongoing slave trade. I think their beef was Geoff Palmer is not an academic historian. </p> <p>Dundas marital scenario also deeply dodgy but that was also par for the course at the time.</p> <p>Unless you think Michael Fry is anything other than an apologist? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-370690 Sat, 23 Sep 2023 14:49:22 +0000 Morningsider 370690@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I don't think I have "...taken it as read that the claims on the plaque are probably right". I said "...possibly delayed the abolition of slavery...". </p> <p>That is separate from me stating that Dundas was a racist. He was an 18th Century hereditary peer - it is simply a factor of his time and place.</p> <p>What interests me is the actions of the current Dundases. Why involve yourself in it at all? Even if you think the plaque is wrong, what benefit comes from wading into the debate? I imagine it's some weird sort of aristocratic ancestor fetishisation - a possible insult to someone dead over 200 years is an insult to me!</p> <p>Imagine living your life like that. Hell, I'm big enough to admit to holding some unsound views as a nipper in the 70s and 80s. I've lived and learned. Imagine trying to go into bat for the views held by 10 generations of your family, especially when they all thought they had a God given right to sit in Parliament and rule over us plebs. What does that do to your view of the world and the people in it? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-370687 Sat, 23 Sep 2023 12:02:50 +0000 Yodhrin 370687@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>But that's a perfect example of what I was saying - you've taken it as read that the claims on the plaque are probably right and are judging the family accordingly, when by the other interpretation of events Dundas' actions in delaying things prevented abolition from being defeated outright; if someone accepts that interpretation, which you'd expect the family would, all they're doing is defending their family name and ancestor's reputation against a slander. Interpreting their actions as &lt;rule2&gt;y relies entirely on the new plaque's claims and emphasis being the correct version of events, which is nowhere near as much of a certainty as those responsible for it insist; to be clear, I don't take a position on which interpretation is more truthful, as far as I can tell there isn't enough evidence to prove it even beyond balance of probablity either way because we're being asked to look inside the mind of a dead man to decide whether and which of his stated intentions were genuine or cynical politicking, but that's rather the point - you find nothing about that on the plaque, just bald assertion.</p> <p>And as for holding the current generation responsible, people have been using words like "atonement" in this thread, and there were calls at the time from some that they should personally pay reparations "in light of this new information" etc. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-370686 Sat, 23 Sep 2023 11:39:16 +0000 Morningsider 370686@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Pretty sure no-one is holding the current generation of Dundases responsible for the actions of their famous forbear, as that would be ridiculous.</p> <p>I have to admit, up until a couple of years ago I couldn't have told you who the guy on the top of the pillar was. Can't say the fact that an 18th century Aristo with a huge monument to themselves in the city centre was a racist, and possibly delayed the abolition of slavery, came as a huge surprise.</p> <p>I don't think the current generation of Dundases are doing themselves any favours. If they had to say or do anything then surely a quick statement along the lines of "Not sure we agree with the wording of the plaque, but we share concerns about this period in our family's history" would have sufficed. Followed by a long period of silence.</p> <p>Still, I do enjoy the fact that their dunderheaded insistence on dragging this issue out simply attracts more attention to what they seem determined to hide. Someone should come up with a name for this phenomenon... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-370684 Sat, 23 Sep 2023 09:50:52 +0000 Yodhrin 370684@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I mean, yes, but also no? The council imposed a disputed - and not by crackpot racists, other actual respected historians - account of the history, and the result of that is seen in stuff like the article above; it's now taken as read that Dundas' reputation needs to be "salvaged", and in the context of a culture war in which people are being held responsible for the actions of their great great great great great etc ancestors I don't see this as "entitled toffs vs everyone else". </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-370681 Sat, 23 Sep 2023 07:38:09 +0000 gembo 370681@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Toffs getting militant. Totally legal to remove a plaque. As they alerted the owners when they met at The New Club.</p> <p>Without an iota of reflection that this sort of entitlement is directly descended from a mindset which allowed a strata of humanity to believe it was legitimate to enslave their fellow humans. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-370678 Fri, 22 Sep 2023 16:22:55 +0000 chdot 370678@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>A group founded by descendants of Henry Dundas seeking to salvage his reputation has claimed responsibility - but argued it acted "completely within the law".</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-police-investigate-slavery-plaque-27759994" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-police-investigate-slavery-plaque-27759994</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-366921 Thu, 02 Mar 2023 21:15:43 +0000 gembo 366921@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Dundas was King of Scotland. king Harry the ninth, and second in command In Pitt Govt. I am going to speculate he had the sailors paid properly for their duty.</p> <p>They can’t all have been Masons. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-366920 Thu, 02 Mar 2023 20:58:41 +0000 chdot 366920@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Depends how you interpret it</p> <p>Square owned by surrounding building owner but managed by CEC - who almost certainly paid for the plaque </p> <p>Planning application highlighted entitlement and stupidity, will ‘owners’ (probably including various pension funds) back the family?</p> <p>As I remember, the argument about the wording, was about the extent to which Dundas did or didn’t “delay” abolition. </p> <p>Can’t remember if he/family benefitted financially. </p> <p>If I was family I’d keep <em>very</em> quiet or offer some token ‘atonement’. </p> <p>But then I probably couldn’t trace my family that far back…</p> <p>EDIT</p> <p>“Paid for by the officers and men of the Royal Navy.”</p> <p>Why?? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-366919 Thu, 02 Mar 2023 20:58:20 +0000 gembo 366919@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Paid for by the officers and men of the Royal Navy. Garden only opened to public relatively recently but my guess is goin* to be The Council? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-366918 Thu, 02 Mar 2023 20:35:37 +0000 SRD 366918@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>so who does own it? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-366912 Thu, 02 Mar 2023 17:33:35 +0000 Morningsider 366912@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ha ha - aristos are the ultimate "snowflakes". "Waaa - someone has criticised the actions of my great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandpapa!" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-366911 Thu, 02 Mar 2023 16:52:33 +0000 chdot 366911@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>A group which includes members of the Dundas family said the plaque's wording is "cartoonishly inaccurate" and added it was "hurtful to our family."</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-plan-remove-melville-monument-26364613" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-plan-remove-melville-monument-26364613</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=5#post-366910 Thu, 02 Mar 2023 16:22:05 +0000 pringlis 366910@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://twitter.com/Edinburgh_CC/status/1631234586867802112" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/Edinburgh_CC/status/1631234586867802112</a></p> <p><blockquote>For the avoidance of doubt, there are no plans to remove the plaque from Melville Monument in St Andrew Square. The committee decision yesterday was on a technicality: the application wasn’t from the owner of the statue, so no further action is required. </blockquote> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=4#post-366905 Thu, 02 Mar 2023 14:50:21 +0000 chdot 366905@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/council/edinburgh-statues-planning-permission-granted-for-removal-of-henry-dundas-slavery-plaque-on-melville-monument-4047826" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/council/edinburgh-statues-planning-permission-granted-for-removal-of-henry-dundas-slavery-plaque-on-melville-monument-4047826</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=4#post-366853 Wed, 01 Mar 2023 09:30:48 +0000 gembo 366853@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Lodge Gorebridge Dundas 1039</p> <p>Early twentieth century version with the Sir Bobby and the Sir Harry Dundases being the master of this lodge now having to share premises in Newtongrange. SIr Harry even made it as high as Provincial Grand Master of the whole of Midlothian. I will continue my research and be awarded a degree.</p> <p>Original Delayer of Abolition was I believe the Grand Master of Scotland in the 18th Century. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=4#post-366852 Wed, 01 Mar 2023 04:19:32 +0000 Yodhrin 366852@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@gembo Ahh righto, so it's a creative fiction thread. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=4#post-366840 Tue, 28 Feb 2023 16:28:36 +0000 Morningsider 366840@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Love it - no-one does petty spats better than senior academics. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=4#post-366838 Tue, 28 Feb 2023 16:09:48 +0000 gembo 366838@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There is a spat between Sir Geoff and Tam Devine. </p> <p>Goes like this</p> <p>Geoff - Dundas delayed the abolition of slavery, this is wrong</p> <p>Tam - you are not a historian Geoff, you should leave history to the historians.</p> <p>Geoff - hmm, that doesn’t alter that Dundas delayed the abolition of slavery. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=4#post-366835 Tue, 28 Feb 2023 15:37:13 +0000 Yodhrin 366835@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Isn't the point exactly that those kinds of comparisons are still disputed? Cos if Tom Devine is questioning your interpretation of history I dunno, seems like it at least merits a little reflecting. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=4#post-366831 Tue, 28 Feb 2023 12:08:57 +0000 neddie 366831@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote>Dundas pursued the gradual abolition of slavery</blockquote></p> <p>Aye, just like the fossil fuel industry and its shills pursue the gradual "abolition" of fossil fuel, all while finding and extracting new reserves... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=4#post-366830 Tue, 28 Feb 2023 12:06:56 +0000 Morningsider 366830@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>One of the quirks of the Scottish planning system is you can apply for permission to do something without actually owning the property, or the ability to deliver the proposals in the application. This power exists for good reason - a developer can hold an option to purchase land subject to securing an award of planning permission.</p> <p>I see from the application documents that the applicants don't actually own the monument, so would need the agreement of all its owners to remove the plaque, even if they get permission.</p> <p>Planners had to recommend approval of this proposal, as it meets all the relevant policy requirements - which do not include the wording on the plaque. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=4#post-366829 Tue, 28 Feb 2023 12:05:51 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur 366829@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From the report:</p> <p>"It should be noted that assessment of this application is restricted solely to the impact of the proposal on the character of the listed building and no regard can be had to the content of the text that is displayed on the plaque.</p> <p>In addition, the granting of the listed building consent application does not confer ownership rights to remove the plaque." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20346&page=4#post-366827 Tue, 28 Feb 2023 11:22:03 +0000 SRD 366827@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That whole thing is weird and rather sad. </p> <p>But I do think the council erred badly in not including a professional historian on the committee, if only to protect themselves from such criticism). </p>