http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: What have we learned from 2020? en Sun, 31 May 2026 10:03:08 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448&page=2#post-343336 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 19:00:43 +0000 crowriver 343336@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@stiltskin, maybe you missed the point of my earlier post. while the Social Democrats eventually shared the fate of German communists, the Centre Party in Germany and the Liberal Party in Italy either enabled or actively participated in the fascist regimes.</p> <p>So these historical examples would tend to demonstrate that when push comes to shove, centrists side with the right. We seem to be seeing a less extreme version of this with Starmer's leadership of the Labour Party.</p> <p>"it was the threat of the left wing which led to the legitimising of the extreme right."</p> <p>That's where the historical analogies end with C21st. The current right in the UK were/are focused on different "external enemies" - forriners basically. The EU, refugees, immigrants, etc. The media aided by some in the Labour party attempted to portray Corbyn as "extreme left" but he was, and is, a mild mannered Social Democrat. Starmer has moved beyond centrist suitism on the Blairite model to try and appeal to "Blue Wall" voters - whoever they might be. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448&page=2#post-343329 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 17:52:11 +0000 chdot 343329@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“people respond by thinking that only extreme solutions will work“</p> <p>Depends whether “people” is a majority or a ‘mood’ or whether it’s the current ‘leader(s)’. </p> <p>History shows that (sometimes) people are led to believe there is a problem/enemy and they <em>must</em> do whatever is being told to them. </p> <p>My view is that defining things in left/right terms may be useful shorthand but also obscures too many things <em>and</em> inhibits wider thought/action. </p> <p>It’s like ‘private good, public bad’ (and the reverse) - ‘pick a side’. </p> <p>More useful to consider the binary nature of the choices <em>and</em> who is promoting simple choices/certainties. </p> <p>One irony of Covid is that the current UKGov has managed to find/spend ‘public money’ in quantities that few left of centre politicians would dare propose. </p> <p>Suited centrism has probably had its day. </p> <p>Cameron and Brown would surely agree on at least 90% of things these days. </p> <p>If they (or different wearers of similar suits) are the answer, the question is wrong. </p> <p>In the big scheme of things both Covid and Brexit are sideshow. </p> <p>Climate, resources (especially water - not much of a concern for most people in the UK, apart from floods) and population movement are bigger issues in a world context. </p> <p>A few months ago it seemed that ‘no return to normal after Covid’ was a popular idea. </p> <p>Now I think people would vote for <em>anyone</em> who <em>promised</em> any normality/certainty. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448&page=2#post-343328 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 17:48:32 +0000 stiltskin 343328@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@crowriver. I’m pretty sure extreme left wingers didn’t fare too well either. Significantly it was the threat of the left wing which led to the legitimising of the extreme right. They were saving the country from the commies as I recall. The extremes are often in a symbiotic relationship where the threat posed by one side justifies the other. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448&page=2#post-343322 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 17:11:18 +0000 I were right about that saddle 343322@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>All things that have worked in the past, from liberal democracy to regicide to mobilisation of the adult population to form a mechanised army are, by definition, not considered extreme, despite the fact that they really were? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448&page=2#post-343320 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 17:02:51 +0000 crowriver 343320@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@stiltskin, you may want to research what happened to "reasonable" centrist politicians during those historical crises. For example, German Social Democrats and Centre Party in the 1930s; Or the Italian Liberal Party in the 1920s. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448&page=2#post-343317 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 16:46:30 +0000 stiltskin 343317@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm sorry, but I don't agree. I think past events show what happens when the tides of history throw up crises &amp; people respond by thinking that only extreme solutions will work. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448&page=2#post-343313 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 16:15:55 +0000 crowriver 343313@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I don't think the proposition "Why can't we just go back to comfortable centrism in nice suits" cuts much mustard these days. It's not the 1990s. Have you seen what's happened in the past decade? A huge economic crisis created by the very neoliberals that centrists voted for; Then the referendums for Scottish independence and leaving the EU; Then we literally left the EU; Then the global pandemic.</p> <p>Even if the amiable Charles Kennedy were still alive, he wouldn't stand much of a chance in today's politics. Jack McConnell has gone down the route of lobbying for schools to be kept open - a ThemForUs agent in the Lords. Arguably the nearest we have to a centrist administration is that of Nicola Sturgeon, with her procedural gradualism and disowning of maverick Salmond. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448&page=2#post-343311 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 16:09:52 +0000 steveo 343311@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@iwrats If more people realised they were wrong all the time about everything the world would be a better place.</p> <p>I think pratchett summed it up nicely.<br /> “Science is not about building a body of known ‘facts’. It is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good.” </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343310 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 15:46:45 +0000 Morningsider 343310@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Baldcyclist - I did really think about that before posting. There are certainly plenty of Momentum types that are equally guilty of this type of unthinking. However, I don't agree that they are all as bad as each other. Right-wing, nationalist populism is clearly in the ascendency - their views more widely held and more influential. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343306 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 15:28:57 +0000 I were right about that saddle 343306@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Trying to think how to explain to my dad what has happened to his former student Andy Wightman on Skype today. The best I can think of is to say that he has been excommunicated from his party for heresy. </p> <p>@steveo</p> <p>Great release when I learned that all scientific propositions are wrong. Therefore as a scientist you are wrong all the time about everything. The idea is to make a point of battering your ideas against reality until they break and then moving on relentlessly. Current ideas are just those that have not been proved wrong or have practical utility despite being wrong. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343301 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 14:45:31 +0000 steveo 343301@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I always liked the old vorlon proverb:<br /> "Understanding is a three-edged sword. Your side, my side, and the truth" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343298 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 14:32:34 +0000 Rosie 343298@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There's a Radio 4 series on the Death of Nuance, which is relevant.</p> <p><a href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000qlsj" rel="nofollow">https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000qlsj</a></p> <p>It covers a website called The Perspective, - strapline "There are 2 sides to every story".</p> <p><a href="https://www.theperspective.com/" rel="nofollow">https://www.theperspective.com/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343295 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 14:05:36 +0000 Baldcyclist 343295@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"largely right-wing"</p> <p>I'm not sure this is true, the fault lies at the extremities of both the left and right, they are as be as each other. On the right you have populism, and on the left cancel culture.</p> <p>I also don't remember politics being so tribal before. I remember as a just left of centre person, people not jumping down your throat if you agreed with X Tory position, for example on crime while at the same time as agreeing with Labour position on benefits.</p> <p>I prefer when politics is centre left/right. UK Labour at least seems to be heading back there at last. I wish the Tories would too, but that can't happen until BJ is out. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343294 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 14:04:29 +0000 crowriver 343294@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>As ever, there's a Fall song for that:</p> <p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdzOaB8RMMQ" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdzOaB8RMMQ</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343286 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 13:02:17 +0000 Rosie 343286@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@gembo - the purpose of engagement on social media is not to convince the die-hards, but the on-lookers. You aren't going to change the mind of those in fixed positions, but you are giving some aid, comfort and information to those who are uncertain on an issue. </p> <p>It's best to sound reasonable and factual - which is tough on those whose natural modus operandi is sarcasm and mockery. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343285 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 12:41:52 +0000 Morningsider 343285@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's no accident that the ground rules for debate - reason, agreed facts, nuance, willingness to compromise, a fundamental respect for the opinions of others - are in retreat. Certain state actors, populist politicians and a rag-tag of largely right-wing grifters/chancers have worked to make this happen. </p> <p>In some way they all benefit when debate moves from a battle of ideas to a battle of personalities - it's not what someone says, but who says it that counts. Anyone who doesn't agree with their "narrative" is decried as an elitist who lacks "common sense" or opposes the "will of the people".</p> <p>This is how people end up supporting ideas that harm their own interests or, to outside observers, are clearly illogical. We seem to be entering an age that is the opposite of the enlightenment - which seems incredible when it is science, and policies that flow from that, which will see us through the current pandemic. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343282 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 11:49:54 +0000 chdot 343282@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From simpler times -</p> <p><a href="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AfyIW8oraUk" rel="nofollow">https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AfyIW8oraUk</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343279 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 11:11:50 +0000 minus six 343279@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>the medium is the mess age </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343277 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 11:02:32 +0000 chdot 343277@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“We are losing the ability to disagree politely“</p> <p>Mmm, that is clearly a generalisation and I don’t know how much that is ‘new’ and much more visible (social media etc) and both polarised and entrenched. </p> <p>A (relatively) random example - </p> <p>The striking miners clearly weren’t polite about the government of the day (and vice versa). But also there was a divide between those who wanted to strike and those who didn’t. The point here is that there were lasting (to this day) consequences. </p> <p>What <em>has</em> changed is the ability to spread misinformation/lies and the willingness of some people to believe them - is THAT new?</p> <p>It’s harder to argue/disagree (politely) with people who don’t just have ‘beliefs’ but base them on ideas that not based on facts/‘truth’ etc. </p> <p>Add in the mix institutionalised attempts to have “balance” (BBC: Climate Change) and things can get messy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343276 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 10:52:22 +0000 gembo 343276@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I facebook friended a guy I was at primary school with a few years back, our paths diverged early on. He did well for himself in the army and then as a professional driver. Keen Brexiteer. Mostly just photos of bits of Kent from his motor home now but during the Brexit campaign his re-posts were all verging on racist from my POV. I thought of unfriending him but left it running to understand the enemy as it were. </p> <p>He has a dark military sense of humour and this must overlap with my own peculiar sense of humour as he will sometimes Like certain things I re-post. We have it seems a tenuous connection.</p> <p>Whereas I have a pal who engages with Trump supporters and rent a gobs on the EEN website. He does so in matter of fact and accurate ways. Shining example of rational thought but is he ever likely to make a connection? He continues to diligently apply himself to his task. </p> <p>Ricky Tomlinson went from being right wing racist to left wing over a weekend when he was banged up in a prison cell with a trade unionist over a weekend, Connection made over all workers’ rights.</p> <p>Social media, even this august body tends towards confirmation bias? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343275 Mon, 04 Jan 2021 10:27:48 +0000 I were right about that saddle 343275@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@stiltskin</p> <p>We are losing the ability to disagree politely, that is a very good and very serious point. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343268 Sun, 03 Jan 2021 23:52:21 +0000 stiltskin 343268@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think the thing I have learned most from 2020 is that ‘truth’ has become ever more subjective &amp; facts really are chosen to support an existing viewpoint. This probably has always been the case, but the polarisation of society and the stresses of Covid , Trump &amp; Brexit have made it all the more obvious. I don’t think this is just confined to people whose views I disagree with. An awful lot of the forums I frequent are turning into echo chambers, which really doesn’t help facilitate a greater understanding of different view points. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343240 Sun, 03 Jan 2021 13:33:16 +0000 chdot 343240@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There IS hope -</p> <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/03/generation-z-and-the-covid-pandemic-im-100-more-politicised" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/03/generation-z-and-the-covid-pandemic-im-100-more-politicised</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343237 Sun, 03 Jan 2021 13:30:57 +0000 I were right about that saddle 343237@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@steveo</p> <p>I am then intrigued to see your <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20445">cigar box guitar?</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343235 Sun, 03 Jan 2021 13:02:47 +0000 steveo 343235@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've learned that I do not like having the kids around all the time especially when I'm trying to work, That I'm actually not bad at wood working and that I need some more motivation to get out running or cycling. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343234 Sun, 03 Jan 2021 13:00:59 +0000 steveo 343234@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote>Though I worry that once the financial keys are handed back to the operators many will simply fold - better just to fully nationalise public transport now)</blockquote></p> <p>I think most of the rail franchises are going to be nationalised. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343232 Sun, 03 Jan 2021 12:36:05 +0000 gembo 343232@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Governments also able to borrow at the moment at 0.2 per cent. Keynesian economics possible at this rate. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343231 Sun, 03 Jan 2021 12:27:39 +0000 I were right about that saddle 343231@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Loving the pivot from water saving to system change. Scale is everything.</p> <p>IWARTS predicts: the 2020s will be dominated by a supreme effort to persuade people that they didn't see what they really did see in 2020 and 2021. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343227 Sun, 03 Jan 2021 12:01:36 +0000 chdot 343227@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From link</p> <p>“</p> <p>But the seventh secret that this year revealed represents a silver lining. While bringing about radical change is never easy, it is now abundantly clear that everything could be different. There is no longer any reason why we should accept things as they are. On the contrary, the most important truth of 2020 is captured in Bertolt Brecht’s apt and elegant aphorism: “Because things are the way they are, things will not remain the way they are.”</p> <p>I can think of no greater source of hope than this revelation, delivered in a year most would prefer to forget.</p> <p>“</p> <p>Which is part of the problem, many people just want to forget it all. </p> <p>And some people have a vested interest in making sure that people forget there ARE other possibilities - and thwart efforts to implement them. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20448#post-343220 Sun, 03 Jan 2021 11:25:22 +0000 LaidBack 343220@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yanis Varoufakis...</p> <p><a href="https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/seven-secrets-revealed-by-2020-by-yanis-varoufakis-2020-12" rel="nofollow">https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/seven-secrets-revealed-by-2020-by-yanis-varoufakis-2020-12</a> </p>