CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: “£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: “£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens” http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: “£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens” en Tue, 19 May 2026 07:57:55 +0000 ejstubbs on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344184 Sat, 16 Jan 2021 00:06:39 +0000 ejstubbs 344184@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ At the time, BR justified the closure of the Glenfarg route on cost-saving grounds. I don't believe that anyone has actually found a "smoking gun" that confirms that the closure was specifically arranged in order to allow the M90 to use the railway solum. There is a <a href="https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1974/nov/20/m90">reference in Hansard</a> to a public enquiry in 1971 concerning the "rerouting" [sic] of the proposed M90 motorway through Glenfarg, and an unsuccessful court challenge to the chosen route in 1973. It might be that the report of the 1971 public enquiry and/or the proceedings of the 1973 court hearing might shed some more light on the details of the decision making processes within BR, and by those responsible for the road-building programme at the time. But I'm not currently inclined to dig any further. <a href="https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65351-the-glenfarg-route/&tab=comments#comment-877665">This thread on another forum</a> includes some limited discussion about the closure. The OP says: "The line escaped the Beeching Axe of the 60s and was in fact listed for strategic development in one of the Doctor's reports, but this remaining backbone of the Kinross-shire railway system bit the dust in January 1970 for reasons which still remain something of a mystery. However, the emergence of the M90 upon significant stretches of trackbed between Perth and Kinross a few years after the rails had been lifted gives an insight into transport strategies back in the day." As far as gradients on the line are concerned, it seems that these were similar to the Waverley Route. acsimpson on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344106 Thu, 14 Jan 2021 20:29:32 +0000 acsimpson 344106@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ My understanding wasn't that closing the Glenfarg route helped the building of the M90 but that it was explicitly closed to allow the M90 to be built on it's trackbed. Where any route is too steep for a direct line a helical tunnel/viaduct or both is always a great solution. ejstubbs on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344102 Thu, 14 Jan 2021 19:00:40 +0000 ejstubbs 344102@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @toomanybikes: Going from Dalwhinnie following roughly the same route as General Wade's Road, now the A889 ("the most dangerous road in Britain") to Laggan (on the A86) involves a climb of around 45m and descent of around 150m, in a distance of around 12km which might be a bit challenging for a railway, especially eastbound. Newtonmore is over 100m lower than Dalwhinnie - the station is at around 240m - and I can't find any spot heights between there and Tulloch that are over 300m so that does look like a more gentle route. One slight catch is that the line is single track from Dalwhinnie to Newtonmore (being double track south of Dalwhinnie as far as Blair Atholl - at least, so says the OS map). A junction at Newtonmore might compromise the capacity of the line. It might be possible/beneficial to double-track it as far as Newtonmore, or at least as far as a south-facing junction towards Tulloch just south of Newtonmore. A north-facing junction at Newtonmore looks easier but might not suit the expected primary traffic flow (going by your original post which talked about Perth or St Andrews to Mallaig, rather than Inverness/points north to Mallaig - which makes a degree of sense given that Inverness already has a direct rail route to the west coast at Kyle of Lochalsch). ["In the old days" it would have been possible to avoid Glasgow by going from Perth via Crieff or Dunblane to Mallaig. But the Lochearnhead, St Fillans and Comrie Railway closed in the 1950s, and the Callander and Oban Railway east of Crianlarich fell to the Beeching axe in 1965. Note, by the way, that the Glenfarg route to Perth from Edinburgh mentioned previously on this thread was not listed to be closed in Beeching's report. So although its closure certainly aided the construction of the M90, it may not have been as a result of the direct influence of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Marples#Controversies">Earnest Marples</a> who some believe to have been responsible for the scale of the loss of route mileage proposed by Beeching.] I were right about that saddle on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344058 Thu, 14 Jan 2021 11:50:35 +0000 I were right about that saddle 344058@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ the hilliness may play a part The rail lines date from 1870-90. They weren't intended for the kinds of journeys we do now. Roads were in real disrepair at the time and lots of travel was by sea. toomanybikes on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344055 Thu, 14 Jan 2021 11:03:59 +0000 toomanybikes 344055@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Aken, Yeah good point, I forget that Dalwhinnie is probably about the third highest station in the UK. Has always seemed mad that the lines are so close but actually so far, the hilliness may play a part. The report virtually ignores rural routes (bar electrification and signalling upgrades), so is presumably far more concerned with pulling people out of cars for regular journeys than making holidays more accessible. jonty on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344046 Thu, 14 Jan 2021 00:39:18 +0000 jonty 344046@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ >“It shifts the window of debate” >Does it? More than years of work by Spokes, Sustrans, Transform Scotland etc? I don't think it's a competition and different people influence policy in different ways. But the Greens are the only ones who (currently) can cause a budget bill to fail, and they're in a unique position where they can propose green policy and dare the government to oppose it. So this stuff does matter. chdot on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344031 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 21:10:09 +0000 chdot 344031@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ However I presume GP highlighted tunnel in its press release. <a href="http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/scottish-greens-calls-for-forth-rail-tunnel" rel="nofollow">http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/scottish-greens-calls-for-forth-rail-tunnel</a> chdot on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344030 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 20:45:11 +0000 chdot 344030@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @jonty I understand your distress. Statusquoism is a real problem. The SNP Gov is disappointingly committed to it. “Transport” is a real problem for them which they barely acknowledge (particularly in terms of Climate Change ‘targets’). Obviously Transport Scotland is a problem too - who’s responsible for that??) “It shifts the window of debate” Does it? More than years of work by Spokes, Sustrans, Transform Scotland etc? Not suggesting that the GP is parachuting ideas without any understanding. Part of the problem here is ‘we’ are ‘talking’ about the bit that Alistair Dalton thought would make a good headline. Presumably the GP would like people to read the whole report... jonty on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344022 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 18:53:08 +0000 jonty 344022@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ > I don't think it unreasonable to question the thinking behind what would be Scotland's most expensive infrastructure project ever. This is very fair enough! I'm perhaps overreacting. I just struggle with the status quo, which seems to be that road projects are barely opposed - even by many environmental groups - but non-road projects, partly because they tend to be delivered in larger 'lumps' and are often making up for decades of under-investment - receive colossal amounts of scrutiny from every angle. This just creates noise which adds a further headwind to non-road projects while allowing road projects to thunder on without fanfare or fuss. This is worsened by the idea, which seems to have evolved as a post-hoc justification for some HS2 opposition, that part of solving the climate crisis essentially involves ending transport full stop - full stick, no carrot. The political reality ends up being that non-road projects get attacked from all angles, they get dropped, and the status quo continues. The rail tunnel idea is maybe mad - I can see a lot of the benefits of it - but fundamentally it's a flag in the sand at one extreme. It shifts the window of debate. The substance of this plan is in every other sustainable travel project which can be delivered as a compromise between "the mad tunnel" and "the mad unsustainable road binge we've been on for most of the last hundred years." And in that sense, I think it's much better and more productive than trying to make the argument that all travel past the corner shop is a bit questionable. Baldcyclist on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344019 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 18:30:03 +0000 Baldcyclist 344019@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ And also cheaper fares. I'm lucky that I can afford to pay for the convenience of the train, but for many folks, the affordable and therefor only way to get to work is by car (if you make the already have a car anyway, fuel only cost comparison). I'm not a fan of the 'charge them more' mantra, because the reality is you are just putting more people into poverty. The better way to get people onto trains, buses is to make that option attractive, ie cheaper and better. crowriver on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344017 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 18:21:20 +0000 crowriver 344017@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The 22% of commuters who drive "between 5 and 10km" and the 30% of car passengers who commute similar distances should be the primary target of transport policies seeking to get them to switch modes. Bus, tram, cycle would seem to be the obvious options. 47% of rail commuters are already in the 15-40km range, so maybe the answer there is more capacity through better rolling stock, signalling and management improvements? Longer distance commuters (40km+) already mostly go by rail. chdot on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344016 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 18:17:24 +0000 chdot 344016@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ “Should we really be generating bus journeys“ A simple question which demonstrates the complexity of all this. Remember the old slogan “<a href="https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/26111">is your journey really necessary</a>”? Perhaps not remembered from when it was first used! Bit surprised it hasn’t been revived for Covid times. After (?) Covid there will be people travelling less and others travelling as much as before, with others intent on even more mileage. Should there be limits? Based on carbon use? Let’s artificially split travel into work, leisure and holidays. Shopping can be in work and leisure. Let’s ‘allow’ one holiday a year - carbon neutral of course. For the rest, is the idea to reduce travel generally or just reduce car use - especially single user? If the latter (assuming a similar number of journeys are to be anticipated) then it requires good PT and better walk/cycle infrastructure - at least as road reallocation, not necessarily much more tarmac/tree removal. So emission free buses? Fully electrified railway (this is SG policy - or perhaps aspiration)? Free buses? A free annual PT mileage allowance for all residents of Scotland? All possible decisions, largely decided by Gov(s). This is not about ‘green’, even less the Green Party. It’s like Covid - the ‘balance’ between ‘health’ and ‘economy’. The ‘transport balance’ is between ‘personal liberty’ and (perhaps) a more pleasant environment and ways of getting around. Of course there are no such simple ‘balances’. The Climate Emergency won’t wait until politicians work out what the public will accept. Covid ought to lead to ‘doing the unthinkable’ - carbon neutral next year with massive investment (like for the vaccines) more lockdowns (or at least travel restrictions)??? But no, more of before. Everyone has had enough inconveniences for a while. No alternative, no future (maybe). I were right about that saddle on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344012 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 18:03:51 +0000 I were right about that saddle 344012@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I don't think it unreasonable to question the thinking behind what would be Scotland's most expensive infrastructure project ever. Yes well put that way hard to disagree. Morningsider on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344010 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 18:00:58 +0000 Morningsider 344010@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Jonty - I don't think it unreasonable to question the thinking behind what would be Scotland's most expensive infrastructure project ever. I never claimed commuters would be the only users of this line, but they account for a large proportion of Fife-Edinburgh rail travellers (both current and potential), so are a reasonable focus. Similarly, locating a rail station somewhere doesn't just benefit locals, but is probably of more benefit to them than any other single group. I'm posting on the hoof here. I'm not claiming this is some kind of detailed project analysis. <a href="https://www.transport.gov.scot/publication/transport-and-travel-in-scotland-2019-results-from-the-scottish-household-survey/table-td4b-distance-to-work-by-main-mode-percentage-of-journeys-to-work-by-road-network-distance-by-main-mode-2019/">Just 6.6% of commuters </a>travel more than 40km to work. So I would argue that people travelling from Galashiels, North Berwick and Kirkcaldy are long distance commuters. <a href="https://aran.library.nuigalway.ie/bitstream/handle/10379/6320/Manton_et_al_SDEWES_2012.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y">Research</a> into carbon emissions from cycle route construction concluded that: <blockquote>It was found that the embodied carbon of on-road cycle routes and cycle lanes were generally not significant</blockquote> <a href="https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/48199/sct07209535161.pdf">GHG emissions from buses</a> in Scotland have fallen by 31% since 1990 and average emissions per bus passenger are lower than that of car users, so I would argue it is worth encouraging modal shift from car to bus. jonty on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344008 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 17:53:05 +0000 jonty 344008@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Ironically the people most unable to wfh are generally low paid and therefore less likely to live centrally and more likely to have long commutes... Baldcyclist on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344007 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 17:40:30 +0000 Baldcyclist 344007@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "With those people then commuting ever more vast distances into Edinburgh." Not any more, no need. jonty on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344005 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 16:56:42 +0000 jonty 344005@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I'm seeing a pattern here that we also see with bike lane opposition - zero in on single benefits, ideally to single groups and ask if they justify the whole project as well as zeroing in on single disadvantages and act as if there isn't an environmental trade-off to almost any action we can take. > Do Leithers who want to travel to Aberdeen, Inverness or London really find it difficult to reach the Waverley? No, probably not. Would that really be the only benefit? > "Not for the likes of us?" I have to ask who the "us" would be - principally long-distance commuters working in central Edinburgh. Are people genuinely commuting from Aberdeen, Inverness and London? Especially post-pandemic? Are people commuting 30-40mins on the Borders, North Berwick and Fife Circle lines 'long-distance commuters'? How many people are flying or driving to these destinations currently? Would the railways be able to absorb even half of them? Can it offer competitive journey times if we can't win the argument that driving should be heavily disincentivised fast enough? > That would be enough to build a complete segregated cycle network for the whole of Edinburgh and probably leave change for new bus lanes as well. Have we ever estimated the carbon impact of building hundreds of kilometres of segregated cycle infrastructure? How many trees might we need to cut down? Should we really be generating bus journeys when we can't even seem to get hybrid buses to work properly at the moment? AKen on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344004 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 16:56:11 +0000 AKen 344004@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ this Tulloch, basically connecting Highland Main Line to West Highland line Probably easier to do Tulloch to Newtonmore, than to Dalwhinnie. The line could stay down as close to the Spean and the Spey as possible. Morningsider on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344002 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 16:37:11 +0000 Morningsider 344002@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ If you want to tackle capacity issues then a quick roll-out of <a href="https://www.era.europa.eu/activities/european-rail-traffic-management-system-ertms_en">ERTMS</a> (ETCS level 2 or ideally level 3) across central Scotland would seem a far better idea. This is super dull, but could increase capacity by up to 50%, without having to lay a single metre of extra track. Do Leithers who want to travel to Aberdeen, Inverness or London really find it difficult to reach the Waverley? Building an underground railway station with platforms long enough to handle 9-car class 800s would probably cost in the region of £100m-£200m (based on something similar to Woolwich Crossrail station). That would be enough to build a complete segregated cycle network for the whole of Edinburgh and probably leave change for new bus lanes as well. "Not for the likes of us?" I have to ask who the "us" would be - principally long-distance commuters working in central Edinburgh. Not exactly the downtrodden masses. Just because London has it grand projects, should we somehow feel inferior if we do not match them? Personally, I think not. Far better to invest the money wisely in projects that make day-to-day trips across the country a bit better. I suppose the retort to that is "we will do that too" - but the level of investment required, never mind the capacity of the construction industry to deliver all this, is reaching credibility busting levels. chdot on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-344001 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 16:31:42 +0000 chdot 344001@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20464&replies=1#post-344000">Thread to discuss the whole report</a> toomanybikes on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-343999 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 16:27:38 +0000 toomanybikes 343999@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @neddie "During lockdown, we've discovered some lovely things in the local area (by walking / cycling) and realised that we have so much here, right on our doorstep. To the point where we are questioning why we ever felt the need to go on annual foreign holidays." I don't think the realistic sellable alternative to foreign holidays and long distance flights for the masses is to advocate never leaving the Edinburgh Bypass. I agree that the cheapness of long distance flights is hugely problematic and international holidays need to be curtailed, however the realistic alternative to that is not a good cycle lane out to the Pentlands, as lovely as that would be for the occasional weekend. If planning policy for a benevolent dictator, I might take a different view. "Beyond a certain speed, motorised vehicles create remoteness that they alone can shrink. They create distances for all and shrink them for only a few" - Ivan Illich, Energy & Equity 1973 Undoubtedly true for creating dour suburbanised cities. Unsure it's particularly true for train lines around Scotland. The tunnel would probably encourage more commuters to move to Fife, which I agree would make their lives worse, but there's more to the transport dynamics of the country than that. crowriver on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-343998 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 16:26:33 +0000 crowriver 343998@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @ejstubbs, I was thinking a bit further west than that, but yes some of the old alignment could be used potentially. The old Aberlady station is now a camp site. I have camped there in the past. The old engine shed is still there and used to store the site owner's vehicles etc. Folk even pitch tents on the former platform. jonty on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-343997 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 16:20:46 +0000 jonty 343997@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It sounds like you need a revolutionary party rather than an electoral one, neddie. I don't mean that as a criticism or a dismissal - I too am deeply disappointed with what representative democracy of all shades is able to achieve at the moment. But I don't think there's much more the SGP could do to achieve results in the framework within which they operate. crowriver on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463&page=2#post-343996 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 16:20:36 +0000 crowriver 343996@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @neddie, maybe we should set up the Real Green Party and let the SGP continue to demand more massive concrete pouring projects and copy and paste press release rhetoric into online forum posts. Re: mobility and happiness, people tend to think about the positives like holidays somewhere hot, or taking the camper van to the Highlands, rather than the daily tedium of the two hour commute in traffic jams or packed like sardines on overcrowded public transport... Purely a coincidence of course that these are the idealised images that car manufacturers, airlines and transport operators put in their advertising... toomanybikes on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463#post-343995 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 16:14:26 +0000 toomanybikes 343995@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @IWARTS no, not that Tulloch, this Tulloch, basically connecting Highland Main Line to West Highland line : <a href="https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Dalwhinnie+PH19+1AB/Tulloch,+Roy+Bridge+PH31+4AR/@56.949002,-4.6124635,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x488f34fae0dca4fd:0xf5fe43098609e881!2m2!1d-4.242783!2d56.936604!1m5!1m1!1s0x488f2a539d1765bd:0xcdbd0458c169159e!2m2!1d-4.70171!2d56.8841972!3e1"><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Dalwhinnie+PH19+1AB/Tulloch,+Roy+Bridge+PH31+4AR/@56.949002,-4.6124635,11z/data=" rel="nofollow">https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Dalwhinnie+PH19+1AB/Tulloch,+Roy+Bridge+PH31+4AR/@56.949002,-4.6124635,11z/data=</a>!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x488f34fae0dca4fd:0xf5fe43098609e881!2m2!1d-4.242783!2d56.936604!1m5!1m1!1s0x488f2a539d1765bd:0xcdbd0458c169159e!2m2!1d-4.70171!2d56.8841972!3e1</a> chdot on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463#post-343994 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 16:11:10 +0000 chdot 343994@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ “Car. High speed. Brick wall.” neddie on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463#post-343993 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 16:02:03 +0000 neddie 343993@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <blockquote>business-as-usual for the next decade</blockquote> The trouble is, it's all far too little, far too late @jonty Climate scientists are literally screaming at us, "EMERGENCY!" And yet everyone else seems to be going, "la la la, sometime next decade, bla bla bla" Greta's tweet sums it up nicely: <a href="https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/status/1348921010859470848?s=20" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/status/1348921010859470848?s=20</a> Don't shoot the messenger... jonty on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463#post-343987 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 15:47:57 +0000 jonty 343987@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I think it's a lot easier to imagine a shift in support from road to rail over the next decade than it is to imagine support for commencing the entire reconfiguration of our economy to eliminate the need for long-distance travel. Are we really saying that the Greens should go into the May election, after over a year of pandemic restrictions, arguing that people should stop going on domestic holidays and visit relatives less? Rejecting this kind of unrealistic, utopian and deeply unpopular thinking is exactly how the SGP has become one of the most electorally successful Green parties in Europe and - crucially - able to actually have influence on policy, forcing the introduction of things like the Workplace Parking Levy. There's a lot more to this report than an ambitious tunnel and it has clearly been carefully thought through. There's lots of projects proposed across the country for local campaigns to seize on, which may not appear essential on a national level but will really make sense to the people in the areas they'll affect. There's talk at the start about reducing legal overheads and barriers which don't exist for roads - something cycle campaigners can absolutely sympathise with - and on how we simply need to invest in already existing electrification and improvement projects to decarbonise and modernise the network now, something the SNP drag their feet on at every opportunity. Unless we plan to rip up the rail network in the next 30 years, this is an unambiguous climate win. Of course, the Greens are unlikely to win a majority in May, so this has to be viewed as a negotiation position; a stick in the ground. Instead of simply being anti-A9, anti-FRB-reopening and anti-Sheriffhall this reframes the narrative positively - why are we spending money on the A9 when we should be spending it on the Highland Main Line? Why are we spending money on the Bypass when we could be reopening the South Sub? And why spend money on more road capacity over the Forth when we could be building genuinely transformational rail infrastructure instead to take cars and lorries off the roads? Yes - "under current management" we will probably get more business-as-usual for the next decade. But this sort of thing will, at the very least, make the argument for it that little bit harder. chdot on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463#post-343986 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 15:37:32 +0000 chdot 343986@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ “We cannot continue like this...” Clearly people who ‘follow the science’ don’t understand this (enough). “WE. HAVE. TO. STOP.” Car. High speed. Brick wall. neddie on "“£6 billion Forth rail tunnel between Kirkcaldy and Leith proposed by Greens”" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20463#post-343985 Wed, 13 Jan 2021 15:26:16 +0000 neddie 343985@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ We cannot build our way out of climate change, particularly not with mega-projects. (There may be scope for low-carbon incremental improvements, provided existing high-carbon alternatives are inhibited or wound down.) Regardless of what people currently "think" is going to be popular, we have to do this. We have to reduce the need to travel. By 2025, the level of CO2 in the atmosphere is expected to reach 427ppm (currently 415ppm), a level not seen since the peak of the Pliocene warming period, 3.3 million years ago. Back then, global temperatures were 2 to 4 degrees hotter and sea levels 20 metres higher. (Why doesn't anyone seem to be scared senseless by this? - Ed) It is likely that no hominoid has ever experienced such an environment. We cannot continue like this... WE. HAVE. TO. STOP.