http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Pedestrians 'put first' in Edinburgh city centre plan en Thu, 14 May 2026 05:59:51 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-27449 Tue, 22 Mar 2011 12:03:35 +0000 cb 27449@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Letter by Jenny Dawe to The Scotsman on this subject:</p> <p><a href="http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Letter-Central-question.6738019.jp">http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Letter-Central-question.6738019.jp</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-27294 Mon, 21 Mar 2011 14:14:50 +0000 chdot 27294@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"From where I'm sitting at the moment the city centre is much more accessible and convenient than the nearest out-of-town development."</p> <p>Well yes, It's all about the 'perception' that bus users (and cyclists) are too poor to spend money.</p> <p>The fact that if more people sold their cars/used them less they'd have more money to spend...</p> <p>I bet most people don't visit Oxford Street (London) by car.</p> <p>One of the 'justifications' for the tram was that it was the 'only way' to get 'people' (aka middle-age men) out of their cars.</p> <p>Apart from the questionable justification for pandering to (and spending money on) the car bound, this is <em>so not Edinburgh</em>. Edinburghers are significant bus users compared with most parts of the UK - not just people too 'poor' to own cars.</p> <p>It is unfortunate that there is no simple answer to providing a good bus service without using Princes Street - <em>however</em> using a bus in rush hour that goes along P St. hardly counts as 'good service'.</p> <p>Another reason for the tram was the idea that the tram would <em>replace</em> buses between Haymarket and the East End. This idea was not popular and has (probably) been dropped.</p> <p>Another reason for the tram being 'viable' in a journey time/usage sense is that it wouldn't stop in many places.</p> <p>It would be possible to significantly reduce the number of bus stops in P St. (or George Street - if they were re-routed) but that would not be popular with users, who may or may not spend money with members of the Federation of Small Businesses.</p> <p>Not that shopping should be seen as the main reason for altering (or not) the city centre! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-27293 Mon, 21 Mar 2011 13:50:20 +0000 wingpig 27293@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From where I'm sitting at the moment the city centre is much more accessible and convenient than the nearest out-of-town development. Perhaps if I drove to work I'd feel differently.</p> <p>Then again, when the tram's completed I could use it to pop out to the Gyle at lunchtime if I need to buy a birthday card or a sandwich or something. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-27292 Mon, 21 Mar 2011 13:49:13 +0000 SRD 27292@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>and what about the massively under-utilized parking garages? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-27291 Mon, 21 Mar 2011 13:45:47 +0000 PS 27291@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Some sanity from Kelvin Donaldson, director of Grassmarket architects Gilberts at the end though:</p> <p><em>He said: "City centres can never compete with out-of-town retail on accessibility or convenience, but can offer a far greater amenity and character and with that, quality. It does need investment, however."</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-27287 Mon, 21 Mar 2011 12:58:18 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 27287@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Oh for crying out loud, the continuing myth that removing traffic means that people won't come to shop. Because of course the reason people shop on Princes Street is <em>because</em> there are constant buses rumbling past. Of <em>course</em> people wouldn't want to come and shop if it was peaceful and quiet and clear-aired and pleasant. Only a numpty would think that people want to walk around perusing shops were it is <em>nice</em>.</p> <p>I despair. I really do. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-27285 Mon, 21 Mar 2011 12:42:34 +0000 chdot 27285@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<a href="http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Traders-oppose-plans-for-revamp.6737764.jp">Traders oppose plans for revamp of thoroughfare</a>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-26952 Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:44:50 +0000 PS 26952@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yeah, not a fan of a dedicated performance space with seating, which would take away from the idea of an open plaza. I can only assume they'd close the road for that, but what that does for buses, who knows.</p> <p>I suspect the article is a bit of a garbled EEN summary, picking out highlights from options that may be mutually exclusive, so I'll wait and see what the consultation says.</p> <p>It'll be worth keeping an eye out for the consultation and making sure there are plenty of responses in favour of cycle-friendly features. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-26943 Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:23:23 +0000 ruggtomcat 26943@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Im skeptical about the performance space too, These things tend to occur naturally through a combination of space, noise, sightlines and most importantly footfall.</p> <p>the best places are large pedestrian plaza's, i.e. the royal mile. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-26940 Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:17:59 +0000 Morningsider 26940@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Have I read this right - the performance space and seating would be inbetween the lanes of traffic on George Street? Even if the performance space was situated to one side and traffic routed around it I can't imagine it would be very pleasent (or performances audible). </p> <p>Certainly interested in this consultation and what it has to say about cycling. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-26937 Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:53:04 +0000 chdot 26937@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Pavement on north side of George St to be widened"</p> <p>You sure??</p> <p><em>ENews</em> says "widening of the <em>footpath</em> at the north side of George Street"</p> <p>Must be right!!! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-26936 Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:47:25 +0000 PS 26936@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Live-shows-given-top-billing.6734939.jp">The "latest" from EEN</a><br /> Consultation to happen in next 3 months.<br /> Pavement on north side of George St to be widened.<br /> Some of the parking to be removed from George St in order to create a performance space with seating.</p> <p>No mention of cycling. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-25188 Sat, 26 Feb 2011 23:59:54 +0000 Arellcat 25188@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>It's not like a double decker is </em>that<em> much taller than a single decker electric bendy-bus on rails.</em></p> <p>I was at the Light Rail Transit Association meeting yesterday about the trams. Alaistair Richards did acknowledge the fair height of the stock, compared with double decker buses, but didn't make any reference to the recent plans to restrict Princes St to single deck buses.</p> <p>It was a fairly technical meeting, but there was no mention at the meeting of other road users or pedestrian safety, and didn't present much of the bus vs. trams debate. Lots of news though about Gogar depot, the development constraints from utilities and former land use (such as landfill needing compressed and stabilised) and future testing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-25186 Sat, 26 Feb 2011 23:39:35 +0000 123 25186@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You'll have noticed the gap that is the city centre of Edinburgh in the "Innertube" cycle map produced by the bike station. </p> <p>When's there going to be a separate cycle lane on Princes St or at least an official way from east to west through the city centre that is recognised by dirvers and cyclists alike? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289&page=2#post-24847 Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:55:14 +0000 kaputnik 24847@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Single deckers are prettier????</p> <p>They don't block the view of the Castle... </em></p> <p>It's not like a double decker is <em>that</em> much taller than a single decker electric bendy-bus on rails</p> <p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/bmcdevitt1392/4983163108/"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/4983163108_df26ce125d.jpg"></a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24825 Wed, 23 Feb 2011 16:17:54 +0000 mgj 24825@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If there was a commercial argument for single deckers, they'd be used already, but if all it does is put more smaller buses on the road, that can't be in anyone's interest. If there is money to spend on new buses; spend it on greening them - why do they have to run on diesel? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24813 Wed, 23 Feb 2011 15:06:53 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 24813@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Single deckers are prettier????</em></p> <p>They don't block the view of the Castle... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24807 Wed, 23 Feb 2011 14:21:55 +0000 PS 24807@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Single deckers that run on rails and powered by electricity? ;-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24798 Wed, 23 Feb 2011 13:34:14 +0000 ruggtomcat 24798@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Sounds like a 'compromise' to me! :-/ </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24797 Wed, 23 Feb 2011 13:30:36 +0000 chdot 24797@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> City transport leader Gordon Mackenzie today admitted it was "very unlikely" that a proposal by the international architects commissioned by the council to move towards making the street completely bus-free would be accepted. </p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Doubledecker-ban-to-cut-Princes.6723016.jp" rel="nofollow">http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Doubledecker-ban-to-cut-Princes.6723016.jp</a></p> <p>"<br /> DOUBLE-decker buses could be banned from Princes Street at non-peak times as part of the latest attempts to improve the thoroughfare.</p> <p>Councillor Mackenzie said he intended to speak with Lothian Buses and other providers about the possibility of using smaller buses outside of the main morning and early evening rush hours in a bid to make the street more attractive to residents and shoppers."</p> <p>SO </p> <p>Single deckers are prettier???? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24659 Tue, 22 Feb 2011 10:14:43 +0000 cb 24659@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I think 'they' discovered it was solid rock"</p> <p>So no ancient graves/monuments/utilities to be discovered. Sounds easy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24656 Tue, 22 Feb 2011 01:21:45 +0000 chdot 24656@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I suppose that's why they never built the mechanical CD-changer style revolving carpark in Chambers Street either."</p> <p>Can't be quite so solid - keeps subsiding and having to be filled in again and ag... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24655 Tue, 22 Feb 2011 01:19:47 +0000 kaputnik 24655@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I suppose that's why they never built the mechanical CD-changer style revolving carpark in Chambers Street either. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24654 Tue, 22 Feb 2011 01:11:33 +0000 chdot 24654@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"perhaps we should revisit the hairbrained schemes to do a cut-and-cover tunnel in George Street"</p> <p>I think 'they' discovered it was solid rock (not like London Clay). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24653 Tue, 22 Feb 2011 01:04:57 +0000 kaputnik 24653@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>perhaps we should revisit the hairbrained schemes to do a cut-and-cover tunnel in George Street. It used to be for a car park, maybe it could now be a busway?</p> <p>There used to be one such in London, <a href="http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/k/kingsway_tram_subway/index.shtml">The Kingsway Tram Subway</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24650 Tue, 22 Feb 2011 00:50:44 +0000 chdot 24650@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I reckon most debate may well be generated by the report on the 'City Centre and Princes Street Public Realm' issues - detail <a href="http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/31488/report-city_centre_and_princes_street_public_realm">here</a>. I'm supportive of much of what's in this report, but to ask for it to be 'approved' without any further public consultation seems to be asking-for-trouble? In particular, the removal of ALL buses from Princes Street would have very, very significant consequences (and I'm not sure it's even feasible?) and it does appear to me that the public should be asked for their views before this is taken anywhere near the 'approval' stage."</p> <p><a href="http://andrewburns.blogspot.com/2011/02/policy-and-strategy-committee-tomorrow.html" rel="nofollow">http://andrewburns.blogspot.com/2011/02/policy-and-strategy-committee-tomorrow.html</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24434 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 14:36:21 +0000 Cyclingmollie 24434@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>kaputnik: <em>Kind of get the feeling that the tram avoids most a lot of places it should sensibly go... </em></p> <p>I agree. Shouldn't the ideal tram route take in the Grassmarket, Tollcross, Princes Street, the Bridges, the Royal Mile, George IV Bridge etc? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24433 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 14:20:05 +0000 kaputnik 24433@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Diggers and workmen were tearing lumps out of George Street last night. Not sure if it was a generic resurfacing job or "improvements" being made. A couple of zebra crossings have been replaced by pelicans of late. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24409 Sat, 19 Feb 2011 02:57:08 +0000 chdot 24409@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"A FORMER chief executive of Edinburgh's main bus company has warned that a clampdown on the number of services using Princes Street risks damaging the city centre."</p> <p><a href="http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/news/Slashing-buses-along-Princes-Street.6720715.jp" rel="nofollow">http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/news/Slashing-buses-along-Princes-Street.6720715.jp</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2289#post-24274 Thu, 17 Feb 2011 13:02:14 +0000 PS 24274@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Perhaps unsurprisingly, the businesses in George St don't seem too happy with the suggested reduction in parking...<br /> <a href="http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/fears-for-city-trade-if-parking-spaces-are-axed-1.1085638">Fears for city trade if parking spaces are axed</a><br /> Anyone know what's happened to trade in comparable city centre pedestrianisation schemes? I'd have thought there'd be some upside as well as a downside.</p> <p>The last comment from the Cockburn Association strikes me as a bit odd:<br /> <em>“A lot of money was put into [part-pedestrianisng] [sic] Castle Street and everybody says that was a disaster.”</em><br /> A "disaster"? Really? Were many killed? </p>