CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Haymarket Lights Timings

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Haymarket Lights Timings http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Haymarket Lights Timings en Wed, 13 May 2026 01:57:43 +0000 wingpig on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-170940 Wed, 05 Nov 2014 10:41:43 +0000 wingpig 170940@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Reasonably certain that I (and all the other traffic queued back as far as the Co-op) on Dalry Road this morning was held back for at least two sequences of east-west Haymarket traffic this morning. Assume this sometimes happens to keep it clear for trams, to avoid the sort of jammed tram-incapacitating mess there was on Monday evening. wingpig on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29471 Mon, 18 Apr 2011 12:59:16 +0000 wingpig 29471@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Did they not mention how long they think Vehicle Green for Dalry Road lasts? chdot on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29470 Mon, 18 Apr 2011 12:09:59 +0000 chdot 29470@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " Translated: The time from the signals on Dalry Road going to red to the signals on Morrison Street going green is 17 seconds. " Which I'm not sure was the original subject of this thread?? kaputnik on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29467 Mon, 18 Apr 2011 11:50:51 +0000 kaputnik 29467@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ One assumes that traffic light planners aren't oblidged to use plain English in their day jobs chdot on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29465 Mon, 18 Apr 2011 11:41:54 +0000 chdot 29465@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Apparently - "the times haven't been changed recently." I hope this makes sense to someone - "The interval from Dalry Road losing Vehicle Green to Morrison Street (the next stage in the cycle) receiving Vehicle Green towards Haymarket and West Maitland Street is 17 seconds which should give cyclists plenty of time to clear the junction." Which also seems to contradict the notion/feeling of 'dynamic timings based on traffic volume'(?) cb on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29271 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 13:42:10 +0000 cb 29271@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The theory goes that removing fencing will slow traffic down, so perhaps this is something that ccould be done. CEC say they are going to do this (in general, not specifically here). "Easier exit from NEPN/roseburn involves going left onto Gorgie Rd and then through Telfer subway...if only the bollards allowed the trailer through!" The biggest gap is on the north/east side, but there's a lamppost in the way! Presumably going round the back of LIDL is just as bad/worse from a trailer point of view? wingpig on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29260 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:31:15 +0000 wingpig 29260@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ By the look of it there aren't any "bend to right" or "junction on bend ahead"-type warning signs on the approach to that bit (according to StreetView), just the round vehicle-restriction signs either side of the entrance. Don't know if such warning signs would help mitigate the cars to aid cautious/unconfident/slower cyclists; perhaps if lots of bend-warning signs were accompanied by right-turn chevrons either side of the entrance to try and catch drivers' eyes and increase the "this is a JUNCTION"-ness of the straight-on-down-the-WAR manoeuvre. I generally try and signal-whilst-looking-behind to try and catch drivers' eyes or work out (if they're readying their hands to turn right or looking to the right) what they're planning on doing if they're not indicating if I've come up Henderson Terrace and aren't already in the middle of the lane. Similar (but off-topic) is the right-bend-into-Alva-street-from-Queensferry-Street-southbound, where the problem isn't so much people steaming up behind and expecting to go straight on as you bear right but things (particularly buses) heading northwards and expecting to just be able to roll straight out into the road without indicating right or waiting for anything oncoming, forcing you to signal right (and glare at them) even though you're just following the road around. Not sure what signs would help there, apart from an octagonal STOP. Stepdoh on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29258 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:24:02 +0000 Stepdoh 29258@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I got a green wave all the way from Torphichen Street to Haymarket this morning, so think definitely something has changed. Works for me though :) SRD on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29256 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:19:09 +0000 SRD 29256@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ ...not get too annoyed if occasionally I have to lose out to them. I don't mind 'losing out'. I do mind them driving at the back of trailer carrying an infant. (but they would doubtless say we shouldn't be there). Easier exit from NEPN/roseburn involves going left onto Gorgie Rd and then through Telfer subway...if only the bollards allowed the trailer through! Morningsider on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29254 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:15:19 +0000 Morningsider 29254@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I cycled past the WAR entrance every working day for around 5 years and agree with Dave - a nice clear hand signal (no, not that sort) indicating that you are continuing along Fountainbridge was my preferred method of defence. It usually seemed to work - although as DdF says, you still have to have your wits about you for the odd nutter. DdF on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29252 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:05:31 +0000 DdF 29252@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ WAR entrance - most of the people commenting here are I guess experienced, confident and fairly or very fit cyclists. There is (unfortunately) no way that most other people (existing and potential cyclists) are going to move out into the centre of the road on a fairly steep and long uphill, with traffic pressure behind - think about it! Although classifying myself fairly much in the first category I wouldn't move out there either - 90% of the time it may be the best solution, but I'd still be scared of the maniac driver who decided to overtake and cut in anyway. Also, even for the experienced cyclist there are other circumstances (as SRD says) where it's just too scary to move into the centre on a steep uphill. My solution, which works ok 95% of the time, is to use the cycle lane and keep a good lookout behind for bad and inconsiderate drivers, and not get too annoyed if occasionally I have to lose out to them. The existing solution is far from ideal, but is a big improvement on the original layout. The pavement blip was put in at the same time as the cycle lane. Imagine how the junction looked to drivers before that, with nothing at all to warn or remind them about cyclists continuing on towards Fountainbridge. Incidentally, at that time it was harder even to move into the centre, since traffic heading for WAR was speeding even more so than now, with no form of obstacle or warning ahead. Of course, it would certainly be good to do more to make the WAR entrance a lot less convenient for speedy entry than it still is, so how about councillors at <a href="http://www.writetothem.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.writetothem.com</a>! A solution is needed which any existing or potential cyclist would feel at least reasonably happy in using. steveo on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29249 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 11:47:27 +0000 steveo 29249@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ My biggest problem with that junction is that it can (not always) be difficult to find space to get into a primary position. If i come up Henderson I generally swing out quite wide to force people past slowly but from that line its rare that cars are actually going down WAR. From Slateford more often than not i've just filtered up passed the traffic from there its more difficult to move across. I go passed there ever day and tbh its fairly rare that i see cars going down that way but i'll try some different techniques. If you don't hear from me for a few days one of them failed ;). kaputnik on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29248 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 11:43:34 +0000 kaputnik 29248@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I came through my commute an hour earlier today (7AM rather than 8AM leaving of house). I was amazed at how much mroe pleasant and quieter it was. I'd do that every day if I could reliably get myself out my scratcher! Anyway, agree about the whole time of day thing. I think rush hour is generally bad, however a lot of people in the rush hour will be driving / cycling the same stretches of road at the same time, every working day. Perhaps they become used to the trouble spots etc. know where to look, know where the blind spots are or where cyclists are liable to be appearing or moving slowly. This all changes as you get close to schools. Dave on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29246 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 11:17:32 +0000 Dave 29246@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I agree that the best thing is to try different approaches. There's so much variation in how drivers respond to riding position and speed and the clothes you wear etc that nothing is definitive. Even the time of day I find strongly matters. Weekends are worst of all though - it's like a warzone compared with rush hour, which I find quite disciplined (YMMV) Give the right indicate a try some time, you might like it. At worst, it won't work, but I find it very effective. Min on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29245 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:36:17 +0000 Min 29245@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Just to add, I am not volunteering to keep riding past the WAR using different techniques. ;-) I guess if you had to you would just have to try different things until you find something that works for you. Min on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29244 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:34:08 +0000 Min 29244@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I'm not sure either but I do know that even though a proportion of drivers will slow down when you indicate, a similar proportion will speed up and that is not normally what you want when you are looking over your shoulder with one hand on the handlebars! I would do what I do in Drummond Place (which is horrendous for left hooking as it is wide enough for drivers to overtake no matter how far out you are). When I approach London Road I look over my shoulder and carefully wobble right-obviously not under the wheels of the driver behind but enough to make them worry about what I am going to do and they usually slow down. If they left hook me anyway then at least I can see it coming as I am looking round. Dave on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29240 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:18:49 +0000 Dave 29240@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "I can't really recommend signalling. I make enough right turns whilst going uphill to know that quite a large proprtion of drivers will just put their foot down and/or their hand on the horn. Or even cross to the opposite side of the road to overtake you in the cases where there was more than enough time for you to move right without "getting in their way". " Perhaps it wasn't clear, but I'm not suggesting moving at all - just sticking out your hand to indicate that you're not going down the WAR slip as the following driver might assume (ahem). The riding experience you describe is very different to mine. Ultimately however, as is often said, you can't make a road safety omelette without breaking driver convenience eggs. It will undeniably irritate drivers that they can't zoom straight down the slip road, and many will try to do so even if the timing is tight. Indicating right is unlikely to provoke someone who is driving safely to change their mind and lunge around your right hand side then left for the slip, IMO. Or to put it another way - drivers may well pass a cyclist indicating right on the right (using the other side of the road if necessary) but are we really saying that they are *more* likely to do so if you indicate than if you don't? I'm not so sure. Min on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29238 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:04:50 +0000 Min 29238@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Hehe, sure. ;-) SRD on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29237 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:01:27 +0000 SRD 29237@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ No-one should be expected to ride everywhere like Chris flamin' Hoy just to avoid being killed. Can I get that on a t-shirt?? PLEASE! Min on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29236 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:01:03 +0000 Min 29236@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "However the main effect will be to jolt any potential left-hook driver out of their default complacency" I can't really recommend signalling. I make enough right turns whilst going uphill to know that quite a large proprtion of drivers will just put their foot down and/or their hand on the horn. Or even cross to the opposite side of the road to overtake you in the cases where there was more than enough time for you to move right without "getting in their way". Min on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29235 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:55:22 +0000 Min 29235@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ No-one should be expected to ride everywhere like Chris flamin' Hoy just to avoid being killed. This is why cycling is and will remain a niche activity in the UK. Dave on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29234 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:52:49 +0000 Dave 29234@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ A simple option at the WAR entrance is to stick out your right arm and indicate. I often do this if my traffic position is weak (I agree it's a difficult place to be assertive). The worst case scenario for following traffic is that someone will actually stop and try to flash you out, which won't harm anyone. However the main effect will be to jolt any potential left-hook driver out of their default complacency (anyone following a right-indicating vehicle starts to think about it, if only to work out how to get past). SRD on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741&page=2#post-29233 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:28:52 +0000 SRD 29233@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ but, not much consolation to many people who expect to be able to use the red bit 'safely'. I'll happily do move into the centre of the lane on the flats, coming into an intersection etc, but when coming up hill*, esp. towing a trailer or tandem, I am not inclined to. It seems unfair to the traffic going towards Fountainbridge, and possibly dangerous. Not always, but usually, I am coming up Henderson terrace, often from the Roseburn after a longish cycle, and I simply cannot go fast at that point, especially if we've hit the red lights at the top of Henderson. Druidh's advice fine in general, but not for me under those circs! chdot on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741#post-29230 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:03:41 +0000 chdot 29230@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "it's perfectly alright and safe if you completely avoid the bike lane!" I think that's mostly true, but, not much consolation to many people who expect to be able to use the red bit 'safely'. I don't think I have ever been there at rush hour so have not had to deal with a stream(?) of cars turning left. When the WAR was first opened there was no bike lane and a lot of complaints by cyclists (and there weren't nearly as many then!) The council (I think it must have been Lothian Region) looked at various options and came up with a 'compromise solution'. This did improve things. Perhaps now that a lot more people commute by bike, and some motorists are as uncaring as ever, it's time to look at this again. If Edinburgh was World Class Cycling City... Dave on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741#post-29223 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 06:44:59 +0000 Dave 29223@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It's just a really sloppily designed entrance, because drivers can turn off by taking no action. Like roundabouts with high-speed flared entrances, this is inevitably a bad idea in terms of safety (although great for maximising car speed/throughput). kaputnik on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741#post-29222 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 06:10:18 +0000 kaputnik 29222@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Druidh, I think you answered your own question about WAR entrance when you said "I don't understand what the problem is" followed by explaining that it's perfectly alright and safe if you completely avoid the bike lane! :) druidh on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741#post-29219 Thu, 14 Apr 2011 00:32:14 +0000 druidh 29219@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I know I've said it before, but I just don't understand what the problem is with the entrance to the WAR in Dundee St. Indicate early, pull over OUT of the red paintwork and INTO the main carraigeway and no one can squeeze past you. I've been using this route a lot more frequently since they closed off the Shandwick Pl/Queensferry St junction and never had the slightest problem. I tried the Haymarket option again this morning and the lights at the end of West Maitland Street seemed to come on a few seconds earlier than they used to. Pretty much perfect now as previously I had to sprint away from the Dalry Rd lights, then slow down in the W Maitland St cycle lane to catch the lights changing as I approached. Now I can just wheech through at a decent speed. cb on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741#post-29188 Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:03:23 +0000 cb 29188@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "The muppets off the train cross at the red man anyway" Calling me a muppet? Arellcat on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741#post-29186 Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:48:41 +0000 Arellcat 29186@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ As early as the development of the Pelican crossing there were doubts about the legality of enforcing pedestrian crossing only on a green man, specifically the legal dubiety of a wait signal; the law had already been trialled in the London borough experiments of 1962 and the Controlled Traffic Area with fines for crossing the road at any non-designated point, or for even stepping over the kerbside red lines, within the curfew period. But traffic segregation was all the rage back then. So unless the law has changed since, you can cross on a red man if you like, but you might get hurt if a vehicle presumes right of way. spytefear on "Haymarket Lights Timings" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2741#post-29162 Wed, 13 Apr 2011 11:05:44 +0000 spytefear 29162@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The muppets off the train cross at the red man anyway, giving them more green man is pointless