CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage) http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage) en Wed, 13 May 2026 02:45:43 +0000 wee folding bike on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30716 Fri, 06 May 2011 20:43:21 +0000 wee folding bike 30716@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <blockquote>Have your pannier on the right side.</blockquote> Not if there is a lot of heavy stuff in it and the prop stand is on the left. Arellcat on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30701 Fri, 06 May 2011 13:01:45 +0000 Arellcat 30701@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Not sure there's a market for that here though. Perhaps in London? ... Thats essentially the job TBS have let go. But it's also the sort of training that people like donnymurdo can do, depending on the service that's requested. I think the market for the one-to-one stuff could be powered significantly by organisations who want to make cycle training widely available to their staff. You could have someone like PWC or RBS with thousands of staff, and perhaps 5%-10% interested in learn to ride their bike more effectively, or even to learn to ride a bike at all, especially if it was subsidised to some extent. ruggtomcat on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30697 Fri, 06 May 2011 12:11:23 +0000 ruggtomcat 30697@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Thats essentially the job TBS have let go. Dave on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30692 Fri, 06 May 2011 11:42:44 +0000 Dave 30692@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ That's interesting Donny - thanks! (Every day's a schoolday on CCE). I'm not sure I could handle training kids. Imagine if every child got trained, having to explain to Fatboy MacImpreza from the local estate why it's important for his kid to get in the way of boy racers like him (or for that matter any parent who doesn't cycle). I've often thought I might quite like to be a cycle instructor of the more 'personal trainer' sort of bent, where you work with adults who're choosing to ride into work etc. and can pass on all these sorts of tips. Have your pannier on the right side. When you're late for work and there's a solid traffic jam both ways, how should you ride through it with least risk, etc. etc. Not sure there's a market for that here though. Perhaps in London? ruggtomcat on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30649 Fri, 06 May 2011 01:38:25 +0000 ruggtomcat 30649@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ well, Im glad 1 in 6 gets to go ON ROAD, in my day it was lines in the playground, and that was in a village of <5000 people! I would not like to be the guy who volunteers to be responsible for 8 children ON ROAD at a time. I would think it would need a degree of professional training and insurance, difficult to find for an unpaid position. Mind you TBS have laid off some cycle-trainers so there are a few going spare. donnymurdo on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30648 Fri, 06 May 2011 00:12:38 +0000 donnymurdo 30648@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Dave, In response to your comment that you don't see children being taught cycle training. 10,000 children receive ON ROAD cycle training in Scotland each year. Here's my speculation as to why you don't see it happen. Children are taught in groups of 8 but over, on average, a six week period so this amounts to just a mere 7,500 cycle training sessions for children ON ROADS. These sessions need to be held near their school. So reason 1 if you don't cycle near a school you won't see any o the 10,000 children being cycle trained ON ROAD. Because cycle training is primarily promoted through schools they are done in school time or just after school. So you won't see any of the 10,000 children doing their ON ROAD cycle training unless you are travelling between 9.30am and 4.00pm. There are 60,000 primary school children eligible for this training per annum but to get to this figure it is thought that volunteer cycle trainers are the way forward. Contact your local Active Schools Co-ordinator for details. wingpig on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30576 Thu, 05 May 2011 09:37:44 +0000 wingpig 30576@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The presence of new-to-cities/new/recently-resumed cyclists is precisely why we should gripe and be irked about people not exhibiting wise cycling-behaviour... people are good at copying other people, so the more people there are doing naughty/silly/daft/suicidal things, the greater the risk of such behaviours being propagated. SRD on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30573 Thu, 05 May 2011 09:30:15 +0000 SRD 30573@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Crossing Nicholson I slid into primary position in the ASL, noticing cyclist in gutter, with car signalling to turn behind him. I also went into primary at next intersection, when cyclist caught me up and slid in on my right. Politely suggested that at last intersection he should have been centre, not left. Advised him never to sit in the gutter, especially with a turn lane and car indicating left behind him. And also mentioned lorries etc and that most cycling fatalities seemed to involve getting stuck on the left. We had a nice chat and he thanked me for advice. Said he wasn't used to riding in city. But, given accent, I suspect he is not used to UK traffic either. Smudge on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30567 Thu, 05 May 2011 09:07:36 +0000 Smudge 30567@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Isn't it great that cycle use has increased to the point that we can/feel the need complain about other cyclists shoaling/road position/choice of foot etc ;-)) S. (Glass half full!) Dave on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30565 Thu, 05 May 2011 07:32:08 +0000 Dave 30565@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Sometimes when walking along the pavement, I either shoulder check (or get an uncontrollable urge to check) just when I want to walk around someone/thing... It's a bit lessened since I got the recumbent, although perhaps that just means I'm going to end up with a "walking mirror"... re: the feet thing. Although in fact there's little to object to - you "may wish to do things differently to adjust for the road conditions" (i.e. presence of traffic), I bet that either a significant number of instructors will always teach the "gutter position" regardless, or they fail to pass across the significance of how bad that position is when you're in traffic (let's be honest, you don't see kids learning how to cycle amongst traffic anyway!) There are just so many examples of "bad gutterism" that it's hard to know where to begin. And it's all just confidence / perception, too. Take Leith St with that turn-off to Calton rd: almost every day I see people who want to ride up to Princes St take the most fear-inducing road position, practically inviting the traffic stream that's turning left to cut across them. I've never had anyone cut across me there, perhaps in part because I ride to the right hand side of the bus/ahead lane, so it's always visually easier for motorists to come left immediately and drive in the correct lane ahead of time. Sure, it's no guarantee. People change lanes without looking all the time and many who look will go anyway because they think it's "only a bike" holding them up. But you can do a lot for your chances by keeping out of the gutter. Smudge on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30561 Thu, 05 May 2011 06:37:14 +0000 Smudge 30561@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Re the "lifesaver", I got the chance to do some glider flying and the instructor always got a chuckle at me as the lifesaver is so ingrained from motorcycles that I couldn't help but do them before turns when flying the glider! :-o Do them in cars/trucks etc as well, but I figure it's probably a good habit :-) donnymurdo on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30556 Thu, 05 May 2011 01:30:04 +0000 donnymurdo 30556@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ In a previous post I mentioned that you can see the training materials used in schools for yourself. I have had no luck in locating these resources on Cycling Scotland's new website so I've included this link to Road Safety Scotland. <a href="http://www.road-safety.org.uk/cycling/scottish-cycle-training-scheme/" rel="nofollow">http://www.road-safety.org.uk/cycling/scottish-cycle-training-scheme/</a> This scheme aims to give children a basic knowledge of the main manoeuvres. It has also been put together to maximise the safety of the child. To pass this scheme they need to demonstrate that they can perform a safe start and a safe controlled stop. Both require that the left foot is the one placed on the ground. As the cyclist gains experience they may wish to do things differently to adjust for the road conditions and to counter a steep camber on the road. If you do take a peek at one of these cycle training guides may I bring your attention to the second look over the shoulder, the "lifesaver look". This is one of the most dramatic changes you can make to your daily commute in terms of increasing your personal safety. Happy commuting. Nelly on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30538 Wed, 04 May 2011 20:14:38 +0000 Nelly 30538@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Kaputnik - Be safe. Be seen. Be assertive. 100% correct - there are loads of do's and dont's about cycling, but this just about covers the lot - (are you Dave Prowse in disguise) !! I had a chat with my wife about cycle safety the other night (after the poor chap at broughton, and one of my mates getting dunted by a taxi at the west end) and while she agrees that many car drivers need to do some cycling, she also thinks that I am a better cyclist as I also drive - not a bad shout. wee folding bike on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30537 Wed, 04 May 2011 18:31:01 +0000 wee folding bike 30537@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I thought right foot down was because the road was closer on that side. An American friend got it wrong the first time he came to the UK and put down his left foot only to find the road was further away than he expected. I'm ambidextrous at traffic lights but can only mount from the left. PS on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30535 Wed, 04 May 2011 18:05:00 +0000 PS 30535@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ All good advice. And I'd throw in that there's no harm in giving a patient driver a wave/thumbs-up of thanks as they move to pass. kaputnik on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773&page=2#post-30534 Wed, 04 May 2011 17:18:35 +0000 kaputnik 30534@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I always sit in front of the numberplate of the lead vehicle so that this situation is prevented That's a great piece of advice, Dave. I try and position myself to make myself as visible as possible to the vehicle behind me. For a car I find this is directly in front. For a lorry it is of course different, you have to get further ahead as the diagram illustrates. I also agree that the more "infront" of them that you are, the temptation for that car to try and race you from the lights is reduced. They are forced to sit behind you and in theory, can then pass you safely and at a safe distance further on. I will also generally pull myself in to the left a bit after starting from the middle of the road out of an ASL, but don't dive for the gutter. It's just not a safe place to be. You just have to get used to and be confident with the noise of a car sitting up your tail and move when it is safe, not when you feel forced to. Again if they are right behind they aren't tempted to try and squeeze past like if you are sitting on their front left. Anyway. Be safe. Be seen. Be assertive. Dave on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773#post-30533 Wed, 04 May 2011 17:10:27 +0000 Dave 30533@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @PS Filtering on the right is called overtaking. On the other side its against the HC It's worth pointing out that even the police explicitly recommend overtaking stationary traffic (you can go on courses and stuff down in London where they set up stationary vehicles - I've never heard of that here though). For an example see <img src="http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46520000/gif/_46520231_cyclist_lgv_466.gif"> (from <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8296971.stm)" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8296971.stm)</a>. Of course, one of the great curios of the age is that we have all these cycle lanes going in, right down the death zone beside large vehicles, but hey... Thanks to donnymurdo for his interesting comment. I wondered whether it might be something like this (people taught to stop away from traffic - out of sight, out of mind). To be clear, your position on the road is far more important than which foot you have on the ground. The point of encouraging right-footism is simply that it results in a safer road position - you can't be quite as tucked away in the invisible gutter zone if you're stepping to the right of your bike, after all. Another great example is crossing the Royal Mile (heading south). Cyclists coming up the bus lane end up on the left when it turns into pavement, and they all sit in an obedient little line, right down the side of the cars/buses/hgvs. When the lights change there is enormous temptation for the drivers at the front of the queue to bolt for the open space, but in fact when the road narrows at the other side of the crossing the cyclists are suddenly contending for space with cars and buses that have all accellerated far more than they might have. I always sit in front of the numberplate of the lead vehicle so that this situation is prevented. After the junction has been crossed, there's plenty of room for them to pass safely in a second lane. (I also go up the right, but mainly because there's an empty right-filter lane and if it all goes wrong I can always turn right and go home that way ;-) Baldcyclist on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773#post-30532 Wed, 04 May 2011 16:41:16 +0000 Baldcyclist 30532@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ For me it's definitely right foot down first, otherwise I wouldn't get my left foot un-cleated quick enough, and probably just keel over (at least I would provide amusement for my fellow road users - and have done in the past). Once upon a time if you were caught writing with your left hand... donnymurdo on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773#post-30531 Wed, 04 May 2011 16:08:49 +0000 donnymurdo 30531@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Message for Dave with regard to writing "So why do people pull up in the gutter (sometimes even standing on the kerb until the lights change)? Are they not taught to dismount with the right foot only, and to do so in such a way that they're out at least 1m into the road?" This may go some way to explaining your puzzlement over the way some people stop and start. The Scottish Cycle Training scheme taught at P7 and P6 level (age range 9 to 11yrs) teaches children to put their left foot down first. The child will then be leaning away from the traffic stream and less likely to get clipped by passing traffic on the right. It also allows for starting correctly with the right foot in the pedal ready or two o clock position. You can download the manual from the Cycling Scotland website to see for yourself. Hope this helps DM recombodna on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773#post-30520 Wed, 04 May 2011 14:10:46 +0000 recombodna 30520@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I would always filter. Never seen the point in sitting behind a smokey exhaust when I could be up there at the front of the congestion.Surely that's the whole point of being on a bike? It's not illegal motorcycles are allowed to do it so why not cyclists? Smudge on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773#post-30518 Wed, 04 May 2011 14:00:33 +0000 Smudge 30518@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @MGJ I was taught that filtering is moving between stationary lines of traffic, and where safe to do so, I am assured it is legal. Indeed it is part of "making good progress" as expected during advanced training/tests. No rush, but if I can comfortably and safely travel a little quicker than the (seemingly endless) queues of cars, why not? Better surely that I am ahead of the queue and away rather than contributing to the length of it? Of course any manouvre can be completed studidly/dangerously or safely, but that is the measure of the rider/driver as much as anything else. Another vote here for airzound in traffic mind you, just in case :-) PS on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773#post-30517 Wed, 04 May 2011 13:53:10 +0000 PS 30517@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @PS Filtering on the right is called overtaking. Depends on how many lanes there are. ;) I quite often sit in the primary position in a queue, but then I also quite often move up the queue if the circumstances allow - depends on the situation, but that's where using your judgement comes in. What's the point of an ASL if you can't work your way up to it when the traffic is stationary? mgj on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773#post-30516 Wed, 04 May 2011 13:43:53 +0000 mgj 30516@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @PS Filtering on the right is called overtaking. On the other side its against the HC and it can get you into all sorts of badness (doored, SMIDSY'd, killed even). What's the rush? @SRD, if cars are rolling back onto you, you're too close to them (guide from my driving instructor was that you should be able to see the rear wheels, about 6 feet or so), and you need an air zound. What gets me about RLJs, filterers etc is that I nearly always catch them up when the traffic starts to move, and I'm not that fit. A bit of TLC of their bikes and a basic level of fitness is all they would need to do much better in traffic and arrive safer and sounder. wingpig on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773#post-30511 Wed, 04 May 2011 13:07:06 +0000 wingpig 30511@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Perhaps the right foot was deemed the foot most visible to a driver in a right-hand-drive vehicle, so that they can tell when the cycle is preparing to move off. Or something. PS on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773#post-30510 Wed, 04 May 2011 12:58:26 +0000 PS 30510@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I'm guessing the right foot down thing means that if you lose your balance your right foot is out to stop you falling under vehicles? I'm a left foot down chap myself. Probably due to using my dominant right leg to get the cranks turning intially. Curb filtering is pretty much a no-no for me - I try to filter on the right if I do it at all. I would only go for a left side of traffic if I was sure of the traffic light sequence and had plenty of time to get up to the front. Definitely wouldn't do it if there were any railings... SRD on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773#post-30509 Wed, 04 May 2011 12:56:01 +0000 SRD 30509@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I expect someone will be along to tell us that 'filtering' is fine shortly ;-) Well, I have been toying with idea of starting a debate -- seems to me that if bikes filter up to ASL and start as a group then traffic must flow more smoothly than if they wait one by one or even two or more at a time, in a normal queue of traffic. not only does queue get longer, and potentially back up to previous intersections, but unless all cyclists are trackstanding, then starts are choppy and slower. Since previous debates about filtering I've been experimenting with taking my place in the queue of traffic, only to have cars repeatedly roll backwards at me. Obviously, I need to leave more room in front of me, but I have not been convinced that filtering is always a bad thing. Morningsider on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773#post-30508 Wed, 04 May 2011 12:54:29 +0000 Morningsider 30508@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I've never heard of this right foot thing - I always dismount using my left foot! I agree about never going up the inside of a large vehicle unless you are 100% sure you can pass it before it starts moving. I quite often see people going up the side of buses I know are about to pull into a stop (esp. on Forrest Road) - if I can see this happening, why can't they? I think it is probably useful to teach kids certain "rules" that they can easily remember when out on the road, but really think the key is to get them looking and thinking about how best to react to the situation they find themselves in. As for starting on the extreme left - again, I think there are situations where this may be appropriate, but agree that it is usually wise to think like a car and stake your claim to the road, especially if you are turning right. Unfortunatley, this takes confidence in your own abilities and respect from motorists. New and inexperienced cyclists may not have the first and the second can often be in short supply. Perhaps there is a need for cycling mentors or some such for new cyclists who want to gain confidence on the road (this may already exist?). mgj on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773#post-30507 Wed, 04 May 2011 12:48:59 +0000 mgj 30507@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ A cycling forum coming round to arguing against overtaking on the left of cars; wonders will never cease. I expect someone will be along to tell us that 'filtering' is fine shortly ;-) Cyclingmollie on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773#post-30506 Wed, 04 May 2011 12:20:45 +0000 Cyclingmollie 30506@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Are they not taught to dismount with the right foot only" That's one of those rules that kids are taught at cycling proficiency classes. I always tell the girls to put their left foot down so they don't get oil all over their trousers. But that sets them at odds with instructors who, in the case of my eldest daughter, were close to failing her for doing it. What's the reason for the insistence on right foot down? kaputnik on "Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2773#post-30503 Wed, 04 May 2011 12:00:36 +0000 kaputnik 30503@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Second what Dave has said. I cringed yesterday at Drumbrae roundabout (small roundabout, huge traffic flow, fast moving and 3 lanes crammed into space for 2). A fellow going straight on went up the inside of a coach in the left turn lane where there was absolutely no space for him. So much so that he was forced onto the pavement as the coach moved closer to the kerb when the 2 lanes squeezed into 3. I thought he would have learned his lesson from this close shave, but no - he carried on squeezing up. No room to pedal, he punted himself along using his left foot on the kerb, between the coach and the railings. Then pulled up on the left of the left turning bus and made a very slow attempt to go straight over. Absolutely crazy. Why anyone would squeeze up the inside of a large vehicle with poor visibility down the blindside is one thing - to do it at a bad junction like this and then try go straight over is just madness.