http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "The True Cost of Commuting" en Sun, 31 May 2026 16:57:39 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142&page=2#post-43177 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:44:04 +0000 crowriver 43177@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>There's a chap in the office who puts £70 of fuel in per week, but considers £200 for a decent used bike to be too expensive...</em></p> <p>Classic!</p> <p><em>Don't know whether this arrangement was 'preferred option' or 'duty' or ? Even among his colleagues it must have been odd then.</em></p> <p>I have a number of colleagues who commute the same route as me to Dundee, others who come from Glasgow, which is even further/longer.</p> <p>None of us does it 5 days a week, mind you. Some working from home is allowed. If one was doing the full week, either an up sticks would be required, or that quaint tradition, the 'pied á terre'. </p> <p>The common thread seems to be that we all prefer to live in the cities we are in and put up with the long commute* rather than move to the mouth of the Tay, delightful though it can be. The reasons will be different for each.</p> <p>* - Though as it is a train, one can create a 'temporary office' of sorts for nearly an hour, with nice seascapes whizzing past the window. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142&page=2#post-43156 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:33:41 +0000 amir 43156@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I could do my job ju7st as well sat at my desk at home in my underwear"</p> <p>I would worry about not doing the right amount of work (either too much or too little). The good thing about leaving the house and commuting is the routine. It helps to keep a balance between work and play. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142&page=2#post-43153 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:25:46 +0000 Dave 43153@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"'Serious' commuters - fast/long distance - tend to buy more expensive bikes with more expensive bits to be replaced when worn.</p> <p>Can be more pence per mile than an old car (not just petrol)."</em></p> <p>Can, certainly. You'd have to try quite hard though - the cost of fuel alone for our reasonably efficient car would be over £100pcm, which would pay for a lot of bike. There's a chap in the office who puts £70 of fuel in per week, but considers £200 for a decent used bike to be too expensive... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142&page=2#post-43149 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:18:30 +0000 chdot 43149@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I could do my job ju7st as well sat at my desk at home in my underwear"</p> <p>Or less?? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142&page=2#post-43146 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:10:34 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 43146@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>Obviously in some jobs you have to 'be there' - but for others, must mean employers don't trust people unless their managers can see them!</em>"</p> <p>I think that's it to be honest. And a certain amount of suspicion of new ways of working. There still is a huge school of thought that work involves everyone being together in the same building. I have no doubt at all that I could do my job ju7st as well sat at my desk at home in my underwear. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142&page=2#post-43144 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:07:54 +0000 chdot 43144@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"'Quality of life' is a lovely woolly notion that will apply to no two people the same, and really you can't say that the person who chooses to live outside the town in a large houses and spends an hour and a half commuting is any more right or wrong "</p> <p>They are (for many people) also family life balances. </p> <p>I remember <em>many</em> years ago a piece on the radio about commuting/'quality of life' (probably before that phrase was in common use). </p> <p>There was a man - something in the City - who moved to Bournemouth because he didn't want to 'bring up my children in London' - clearly a universal den of iniquity. </p> <p>Clearly he was able to afford a house by the sea and the price of a season ticket for a three hour commute <em>each way</em>. </p> <p>Don't know if he didn't like his wife/children, or they him. Obviously there are other people who work away during the week (and longer). </p> <p>He thought he was doing the best for his family. I don't suppose the BBC went back, 20 years later, to ask his wife/children. </p> <p>Don't know whether this arrangement was 'preferred option' or 'duty' or ? Even among his colleagues it must have been odd then. </p> <p>Perhaps that interview has remained a factor in my subsequent home/workplace decision. </p> <p>One year I spent a few days a month working in London. It was fun (and involved money) and before email, but I prefered being able to see my young daughter everyday. </p> <p>I suppose a bigger question is why, these days of the web and traffic jams, most people go in to work every day(?)</p> <p>Obviously in some jobs you have to 'be there' - but for others, must mean employers don't trust people unless their managers can see them! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142&page=2#post-43142 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:54:28 +0000 primalgeek 43142@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>chdot, you haven't factored in the extra food consumed for a fast/long distance commute... or is that just me? :-)</p> <p>[And I'm not even fast] </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142&page=2#post-43141 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:41:35 +0000 chdot 43141@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Of course, long distance bike commuters can have the best of both worlds, commuting virtually for free"</p> <p>That depends. </p> <p>We've had threads on here about the cost of cycling. </p> <p>'Serious' commuters - fast/long distance - tend to buy more expensive bikes with more expensive bits to be replaced when worn. </p> <p>Can be more pence per mile than an old car (not just petrol). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142&page=2#post-43140 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:39:22 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 43140@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's a very interesting debate. I remember a Twitter storm starting once when someone (might have been Jack Thurston) claimed that anyone who lived outside the city and <em>expected</em> to have their public transport subsidised, or provided at all, was selfish.</p> <p>Cost is a HUGE factor. Obviously calculations can be done to show that the cost of commuting is more than the difference in property values. But I can't see a bank accepting that argument when you're applying for a mortgage. "<em>Yes, yes, I know that technically I should only be able to borrow £150k, but over the next ten years my commuting costs will be £50k, so really it makes sense to lend me the £190k I need to buy the place in town.</em>"</p> <p>'Quality of life' is a lovely woolly notion that will apply to no two people the same, and really you can't say that the person who chooses to live outside the town in a large houses and spends an hour and a half commuting is any more right or wrong than the person who lives in town in a boxroom next door to where he lives, if both of them are doing it because, to them, that gives them the quality of life they want.</p> <p>I personally like the fact I have a garden to spend time in, and the space afforded me by a garage (as well as off-road parking, which has a knock-on (small) saving effect on the insurance for the car). I've done flats, and not sure I could or would go back. For many the 4-5 miles I am from work would be <em>too far</em>. I have a friend who bought a tiny flat in Canonmills because the Shore was too far from tthe town centre. Horses for Courses.</p> <p>As it happens our plan is to move out of the city at some point. My main requirement is either that it's within 20 miles so I can still ride it; or within reach of somewhere easy to park on the outskirts so I can ride the rest. My own 'Quality of Life' determines that space, peace and quiet, and the ability to own more than the current 4 chickens in the back garden, overrides the need to be closer to the centre of the urban connurbation.</p> <p>That decision is right <em>for me</em>. My friend's quality of life living in a teeny flat in Canonmills is right <em>for him</em> (apart from anything else he doesn't cycle or drive, but that's by the by).</p> <p>Monetise the decisions if you like, but it's a bit like putting a price on a favourite colour. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142&page=2#post-43139 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:16:50 +0000 alibali 43139@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Nice calculation, Dave </p> <p>I'm sure an economist might argue that the costs and benefits listed in this thread are precicely why there is the cost difference you noted between Dunfermline and Edinburgh and why it works out differently for larger houses compared to flats.</p> <p>No-one can escape the power of the market... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142&page=2#post-43134 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:28:17 +0000 Dave 43134@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>He then multiplies those costs many times to give big numbers over 10 years and adds in a few high notional costs (like valuing your non-work time using your gross salary rate - a method that always means no-one should move a muscle). </em></p> <p>I thought the article was interesting, and to answer the charge against 'special pleading' I'm going to run the same calculation for us, although at the previous job (since we have, ironically, secured jobs and house that are nearby which is the thrust of the original post!).</p> <p>Myself - £170pcm bus+train ticket, or £340pcm to run a car<br /> wife - £126pcm bus + train ticket, or £193pcm to run a car</p> <p>(Since we'd own one car either way, we should factor in a discount to the car option above. Let's generously discount £85pcm to keep one on the road out of the general household budget - a grand a year).</p> <p>Over a ten year period, then, the cost of commuting by public transport would be £35520. The cost of commuting by cars would be £51960.</p> <p>It's obvious that some allowance must be made for the value of leisure time, since otherwise a calculation would prove that a 10 hour, £50pcm commute was better value than a 1 hour £100pcm commute, although I'd never accept this in reality.</p> <p>In the original article, the median wage was used, but I'll be pessimistic and use the minimum wage instead. 1h each way plus 45m each way makes 3.5h per day, x £6 = £21, or £462pcm. Over ten years this is £55k.</p> <p>To be honest, I wouldn't give up extra hours of my already short leisure time just to earn £6, so this is a stiff underestimate, but I suppose that makes the argument more convincing if anything.</p> <p>So, for us, if we bought a house for a ten year period, logically we should be willing to spend an extra £90k to live near work as opposed to commuting- closer to £110k if we wanted to drive.</p> <p><strong>However</strong>, according to ESPC a four bed in Dunfermline would cost "£200,000 compared to over £370,000" in Edinburgh. This means it would make economic sense to live in Dunfermline and suck up the commuting - although for a two bed flat they say "around £75000 compared to almost £130000", so the sensible decision would be to live in Edinburgh and suck up the extra cost of accommodation.</p> <p>It's an interesting thought experiment for sure. </p> <p>Of course, long distance bike commuters can have the best of both worlds, commuting virtually for free, enjoying better health, enjoying their commute time as recreation (if the route is conducive to that, careful choice of house &amp; job required!), etc. etc... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43131 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:01:56 +0000 chdot 43131@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Perhaps for some people "space" isn't the only factor taken into account when doing their personal quality of life calculation."</p> <p>I remember visiting a bike enthusiast in New York some years ago. Walked into his flat (not a 'loft') and seeing <em>lots</em> of bikes on the floor and hanging up. </p> <p>Felt a bit uncomfortable when I realised that it seemed to be the only room and he lived there with his wife!</p> <p>Today the news is full of (lack of) 'affordable' housing - England but there are parallels here. </p> <p>Cost/location are factors and "right to buy" has dramatically changed the public/private/owner occupier ratios. </p> <p>The population is rising, more people want/can afford to live on their own, and there are more constraints on where new houses can be built. It remains to be seen how changes in Planning laws and emphasis on "localisation" (England) will change all this. </p> <p>There is also the whole area of expectation/aspiration. </p> <p>It's not <em>that</em> long since many families with more than 2.4 kids lived in a couple of rooms. </p> <p>Personally I have never wanted to live in a semi with a bit of front and back garden, but plenty of people want to (and do). </p> <p>There will NEVER be enough houses/flats to house everyone in style to which they might like to be accustomed. </p> <p>This thread is more about the consequences of people living and working where they do. Posts above demonstrate that it's 'complicated'. </p> <p>There is little doubt that building more/wider/better/faster roads and the 'real' cost of motoring v public transport have made it possible for more people to decide to have longer distance/ time commutes. </p> <p>I once had a job that meant I worked in Glasgow 2 or 3 days a week. But I was VERY fortunate because I was based in Edinburgh so the journey time and cost was covered by the employer. </p> <p>Much as I like trains, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to do it every day. </p> <p>Neither would I want to drive half an hour or more in 'rush' hour conditions. </p> <p>But then I'm not 'normal' I judge distances by how far it will take to cycle!</p> <p>I suspect there are others on here with a similar view. </p> <p>Quite a few people on here have/use cars but I suspect 'we' have looked at and considered more options than 'most people' who 'have to' use their cars all the time! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43122 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:19:57 +0000 Min 43122@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Sorry Min, when I lived in East Anglia 'I choose to spend 5 hours stuck in a car every week so that I can "improve my quality of Home life . Incidentally I spend more time on the train than I did commuting in the car, but I can spend the time reading."</p> <p>It looks like you have extrapolated my statement about people who choose to live out of town so that they can drive in to mean everyone who lives outside of town and uses any other form of transport either partially or wholly to get in. I meant only people who specifically choose to live somewhere very far away with no public transport links so that they can <em>drive</em> in and not people who use any other combination of transport which may or may not include driving to the train or bus station or park and ride. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43116 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:34:31 +0000 Smudge 43116@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Crowriver, dunno about 5 bedroom, but four bedroom detached are available for half that price in the Falkirk area.</p> <p>If "everyone" attempted to live in Edinburgh, or indeed commute from outside, it would create a fresh set of problems. All sorts of people are subject to different pressures and have different requirements/budgets etc.</p> <p>Casting them as "right" or "wrong" is at best foolish unless you are able to consider *all* of the reasons for their decision.</p> <p>We all have different requirements and constraints for cost/space/amenities/transport/peace and quiet/etc etc </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43114 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:00:37 +0000 kaputnik 43114@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There's a reason that accommodation in the centre of town (or Edinburgh in general) is more expensive than more peripheral locations. I'm pretty sure that it's not due to a lack of demand or desirability and is more like the opposite.</p> <p>I'm in a rather small flat and was thinking about my older, larger (shared) flat this morning. The overall effect of all that extra space was that my former flatmate just filled it with junk. I came to the conclusion that I'm not sure what I'd do with much more space. (Probably something stupid like fill it with more bikes!)</p> <p>Perhaps for some people "space" isn't the only factor taken into account when doing their personal quality of life calculation. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43113 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:40:07 +0000 crowriver 43113@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>But I'd happily live in Edinburgh if someone would sell me a five-bedroom house with its own garden and allotment for the price of a two-bedroom Edinburgh flat.</em></p> <p>People have said this kind of thing to me before: "Come to Dundee" they say "it's so much cheaper"; "Move to Dunfermline, you get more for your money". No doubt that's true, though no-one used such an extreme comparison as you. Indeed I'm not sure that your example holds water. I suppose it depends where exactly the 5 bedroom house is located and where the 2 bedroom flat is located too. If we are talking the 1/4 million bracket then yes, both are feasible. However you can get 3 and 4 bedroom places in Edinburgh for that, and a 2 bedroom flat for a lot less: all depends on the area. Near impossible though to find a 5 bedroom house for less than 200k. Well, there is one in north Livingston, next to the M8.....not sure it's worth the trade though. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43099 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 20:17:25 +0000 SRD 43099@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>But I'd happily live in Edinburgh if someone would sell me a five-bedroom house with its own garden and allotment for the price of a two-bedroom Edinburgh flat.</em></p> <p>Wel, eexactly, I'd happily live in 5 bed house with garden etc, if someone would sell me one within edinburgh, for price of flat. But it won't happen, so I compromise and we live on top of each other, and like our location and our neighbours and hope that eventually we'll manage to trade up to something bigger. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43098 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:59:03 +0000 gembo 43098@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Mr Money Mustache - Putting The cash in Your Stash</p> <p>I am not linking such a name and strapline to a high degree of sophisticated analysis</p> <p>Balerno was affordable (probably not now), cycle to work likely to be downhill, train,. bus, WoL path also for cycling, possible kayak option. Not bad. Schools good, in countryside, can get night bus at weekend. Taxi is dear. Snow has reappeared in last two years.</p> <p>Many of us try to resolve our cognitive dissonance by loving the one we are with or if we cant resolve it, we move, if we can afford to. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43097 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:49:54 +0000 cb 43097@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>@Instography</p> <p>"Mr Money Mustache (?) sounds like a cheapskate trying to raise his penny-pinching to the level of a moral or environmental principle"</em></p> <p>He does make a few odd arguments, e.g.:</p> <p>"At 80 minutes per day, the self-imposed driving would be adding the equivalent of almost an entire work day to each work week – so they would now effectively be working 6 workdays per week."</p> <p>Sitting around in front of the TV must be 'wasting' time too in that case. I hope he makes valuable use of every second of the day.</p> <p>Anyway, was there not a study done recently that suggested an ideal commute time? Something like 20 or 30 minutes. Basically gives you time to wind down at the end of the day.</p> <p>Cracking photo at the start of the article. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43093 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:10:49 +0000 Instography 43093@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@crowriver<br /> You say that 'snowed in' thing like it's something to be avoided. I'm rarely happier than when I'm snowed in and prevented from getting to work. But I'd happily live in Edinburgh if someone would sell me a five-bedroom house with its own garden and allotment for the price of a two-bedroom Edinburgh flat. </p> <p>This is about personal priorities and choices and Mr Money Mustache (?) sounds like a cheapskate trying to raise his penny-pinching to the level of a moral or environmental principle. He's made his choices and now wants to feel smug and superior when someone makes different choices. He makes his case financially but his financial comparison is pretty bogus. He does a classic of these types of "cost-benefit" analyses of comparing two atypical examples: his "couple's" (I doubt they exist) high costs (and he uses a fictional couple so he can make up their costs and double many of them) and his own very low costs. He then multiplies those costs many times to give big numbers over 10 years and adds in a few high notional costs (like valuing your non-work time using your gross salary rate - a method that always means no-one should move a muscle). Doing this he "proves" that not is he very very clever but it's actually cheaper to be him. We should admire him twice over, which probably makes our admiration more cost-effective. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43083 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:05:09 +0000 amir 43083@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I used to live within 10 mins walk from work. Since we moved out of town and I have taken up cycle commuting I have lost about 7kg (and can eat more cake). When we use the car it tends to be out of town as we prefer the country and it is nicer going into town by bus. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43074 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:53:03 +0000 SRD 43074@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Crowriver - well put! and all true. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43069 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:19:31 +0000 Smudge 43069@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Crowriver, indeed I do, and it serves the purpose of keeping me fit(ter) as well without eating too much into a time poor lifestyle.<br /> In a utopian world we would all live within walking/cycling distance of work/schools/shops etc. Unfortunately we don't and that is extremely unlikely to change.<br /> What can change however is a move away from the absolute dependency on cars and, as is happening now, a move towards relatively more economical road vehicles. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43067 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:56:00 +0000 crowriver 43067@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Really, why would anybody choose to live in over-cramped, and way over-priced accommodation in a city?</em></p> <p>Personally, it's to avoid falling into the 'needing a car' trap. Colleagues of mine live in lovely country cottages in North East Fife, but consequently drive almost everywhere (school, shops, work) and get snowed in frequently during the winter. While I managed to make it into work during last winter's blizzards despite living 70 miles away, others claimed they couldn't as their cars needed digging out despite living only 6 miles away...</p> <p><em> Couple that with the noise, drunks, smells, and higher crime rates in most cities.</em></p> <p>Edinburgh has its share of these issues, but is perhaps unusual amongst cities in the UK in being relatively compact (walking and cycling viable options), having a good range of green spaces located centrally (eg. Holyrood park), and retaining quite good quality high density living accommodation in the central areas (tenements).</p> <p>Hence the city is quite liveable in the most part, and many people do live in the city centre by choice. The 'doughnut effect' exists to some extent but is not as pronounced as in many English cities, let alone the very different urbanism of the US. I'd say Edinburgh feels more European. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43066 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:37:09 +0000 Baldcyclist 43066@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Personally, the best thing about cities, is being able to leave them at 5pm!</p> <p>Really, why would anybody choose to live in over-cramped, and way over-priced accommodation in a city? Couple that with the noise, drunks, smells, and higher crime rates in most cities.</p> <p>The question shouldn't really be about how do we get people out of their cars? Rather, how can we make cities more affordable, cleaner, and less crime ridden places to live than they are at present? Suspect the car problem would solve itself if these issues were addressed....</p> <p>I also find (if I get train and not cycle), that I can commute the 21 miles to work quicker on the train, than some of my colleagues who travel to work on a bus from the outskirts. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43065 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:30:35 +0000 crowriver 43065@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Smudge - presumably you 'enjoy' the cycling bit of the commute too? Maybe not in hail showers, but then that's only half the winter... ;) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43064 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:19:08 +0000 Smudge 43064@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I choose to (mostly) commute by train/bicycle despite the fact it adds an hour to my commute every day, it is (at the moment) *marginally* cheaper as long as I don't count how much I spend on bicycles/waterproofs/goodies for comfort/pleasure rather than necessity. </p> <p>My choice of location affords a far nicer home life than I could enjoy for the same money in Edinburgh, but the location is almost exactly half way between my work and my partners work. Oh and working in or having backgrounds in transportation and budgeting we worked out *exactly* how much the various travel/accomodation options would have cost us before moving.</p> <p>I moved out of town despite the commute.</p> <p>Very little about housing and transportation is quite as simple as it first appears.<br /> We should thererfore always be careful of broad brushes, sometimes they tar too much... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43063 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:00:42 +0000 crowriver 43063@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There was a lot of talk about 'Network effect' and 'critical mass' relating to mobile phones in the late 1990s/early 2000s. I think one can apply it to transportation networks/modes too.</p> <p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43062 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:55:06 +0000 DaveC 43062@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Yes, they choose to spend xx hours stuck in a car every week so that they can "improve their quality of life". </p> <p>Sorry Min, when I lived in East Anglia 'I choose to spend 5 hours stuck in a car every week so that I can "improve my quality of <em>Home</em> life . Incidentally I spend more time on the train than I did commuting in the car, but I can spend the time reading. </p> <p>We looked at a 10 minute walking commute from my employer in Cambridge but all we could afford was in an estate called Arbury, which I would describe as being very similar to Craigmillar/Niddry. </p> <p>Where we ended up living was 30miles away but on the edge of a really nice town (Bury St Edmunds) on the opp side of town to the worst estate [every town has one (or two)], where if accidentally left my car open no one would notice. This was very different from Arbury in Cambridge where if I left everything locked and bolted I still wouldn't trust it to never be broken into/stolen/vandelised. The local Schools are also a big decision maker. Schools in Bury were a lot better than in Arbury (in Cambridge) Both houses we looked at were the same price, the Arbury one we didn't go for was a Building Soc repo which was in a sory state of distress and required lots of work. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4142#post-43061 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:54:32 +0000 Roibeard 43061@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think the stronger argument was based on time, although I'd already been open to that one since I drew a time to work circle (too crude based on <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4101">the public transport map</a>) and limited the accommodation search to within that radius.</p> <p>It is, of course, very much a chicken and egg thing - some will find the home and then a job, others will find a job and then a home.</p> <p>Robert </p>