http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Signalling to pass obstructions en Sun, 31 May 2026 16:57:37 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44293 Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:18:59 +0000 Roibeard 44293@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Given that I've had a grumpy driver accusing me of not signalling that I was travelling <em>straight ahead</em>, I don't think we can win, just make judgement calls as to whether our safety is enhanced by signalling or not.</p> <p>For example, I did signal a right turn travelling east on Chamberlain Road, where I wouldn't normally (the main road curves right), simply because I wanted a bit more space from the driver attempting to squeeze me and middle son into the parked cars...</p> <p>The "why didn't you signal you were going straight ahead" was after being left hooked in the northbound cycle lane at Summerhall. Subsequently stopped using that one altogether...</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44259 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 23:33:39 +0000 Dave 44259@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"If you're riding along a road in the "inside" lane and there's a skip ahead, how is a car/bus driver to know you are going to pull out and that you're not about to stop at the kerb"</em></p> <p>Surely the answer is because crashing into the skip (or "just" conveniently stopping before it) is to an extreme degree the least likely option?</p> <p>I mean, yeah, I could be about to stop at the kerb anywhere, in which case drivers have a great defence for all sorts of pulling out / cutting up offences.<br /> <em><br /> "Oh, sorry. How was I supposed to know you were going to ride onto the roundabout rather than dismount back there on the pavement?"</em></p> <p>The reality though is that motorists just don't think at all. You can tell the minority who do because they hang back (say, when behind a cyclist who's behind a bus that is about to stop). I don't think the ones who cut past are doing anything malevolent, it's just ignorance. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44258 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 23:22:16 +0000 Instography 44258@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I find that when I'm passing buses, moving early and quickly to the far right of the lane starts them thinking you're coming out. Staying in the bus' lane and looking is enough to confirm it. But sticking an arm out does no harm and if they've slowed I can use it to give them a wee thank you wave as well. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44252 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:18:47 +0000 Smudge 44252@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@druidh, point 1 was hammered into me during powered bike training, if you want to live, know what's behind you!<br /> Totally agree, if we can't obey rules/treat other as we would like then we can have no complaint when they don't.</p> <p>Information, Position, Speed, Gear, Acceleration.<br /> Information encompassing all and including both receiving AND giving information of course, "the system" works!! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44243 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:36:54 +0000 druidh 44243@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>1/ Look behind<br /> 2/ Signal <em>if necessary</em><br /> 3/ Manoeuvre</p> <p>Not that hard to do, surely?</p> <p>If you're riding along a road in the "inside" lane and there's a skip ahead, how is a car/bus driver to know you are going to pull out and that you're not about to stop at the kerb before the skip and go into a shop/house/whatever? </p> <p>TBH, almost every cyclist I see fails at point 1. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44210 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:35:32 +0000 Dave 44210@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I probably only really got into signalling with the Raptobike anyway, since a) it's faster so I am more often setting about the traffic, and b) double or quits! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44170 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:11:39 +0000 Darkerside 44170@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Fair enough - ignorance on my part! I'll revert back to my standard 'the recumbent feels more like I'm flying a jet' argument... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44169 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:10:03 +0000 Dave 44169@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"I suppose I was really referring to the cycling around obstacles scenario. I've never seen a private motor vehicle indicate when doing this (buses and lorries are a different matter). Therefore I presume no-one is really expecting a signal on such occasions, even if its in the highway code."</em></p> <p>This is perhaps why it works so well. A large part of safe cycling is the maintenance of uncertainty, in my opinion.</p> <p>My default position is not to signal at all, because I don't see that it makes sense to reduce control for the convenience of Joe motorist. That doesn't mean I don't signal quite a lot (as we are finding out here) but never because some grey civil servant who's never ridden a bike suggests I ought.</p> <p>However, when I see people passing parked cars with moving cars skimming their elbows, when you can just so easily stick out your arm and cause an explosion of convenience to occur in your immediate vicinity... it just has me thinking - what's going on? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44168 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:05:30 +0000 crowriver 44168@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Darkerside, the Topeak bar'n'mirror thingies are very adjustable. It's really just a glance to either side with the yes, no need to move your head. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44167 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:03:06 +0000 Darkerside 44167@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Agree with Laidback in that a rear view mirror gives a significant safety and road awareness benefit on a recumbent, where the mirror (and any other exciting gadgets on the handlebar) are sat neatly in the field of vision. I couldn't see a way to mount a handlebar mirror on an upright so that this is the case, and if you have to move your head significantly to look in the mirror you might as well be looking directly behind you anyway. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44161 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:36:57 +0000 crowriver 44161@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Anyway, when it comes to the highway code, there are quite a few 'should' instructions for cyclists which are contentious, to say the least. 'Should' means 'advisory' rather than 'compulsory', yes? If it says 'must' then fair enough, but how many folk abide by the list below?</p> <p>"59.<br /> Clothing. You should wear</p> <p>a cycle helmet which conforms to current regulations, is the correct size and securely fastened</p> <p>appropriate clothes for cycling. Avoid clothes which may get tangled in the chain, or in a wheel or may obscure your lights</p> <p>light-coloured or fluorescent clothing which helps other road users to see you in daylight and poor light</p> <p>reflective clothing and/or accessories (belt, arm or ankle bands) in the dark" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44160 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:24:17 +0000 Min 44160@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>They are not risking anything by moving a finger to shift their indicator lever. We are when we let go of the handlebar with one hand to do so, especially on Edinburgh's potholed, cobbled, rutted, steep streets. I have had too many frightening moments to do any unnecessary signalling. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44159 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:23:56 +0000 crowriver 44159@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@anth, I suppose I was really referring to the cycling around obstacles scenario. I've never seen a private motor vehicle indicate when doing this (buses and lorries are a different matter). Therefore I presume no-one is really expecting a signal on such occasions, even if its in the highway code. If the circumstances are such that it is safer to signal, I do (eg. passing a stationary bus, or when traffic is heavy/fast/not letting me pull out). When turning at junctions, changing lanes on multi-lane roads, etc. I always signal. Even during certain overtaking manoeuvres, if the circumstances are such that it cannot be construed as 'filtering': this latter is a rather 'grey zone' activity which the majority of cyclists do as a matter of course without any signals. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44158 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:57:39 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 44158@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>I'll start doing it on all 'necessary' occasions as and when when drivers do (ie. never).</em>"</p> <p>The driver retorts, "<em>I'll start doing it on all 'necessary' occasions as and when cyclists do (ie. never).</em>" </p> <p>Not entirely sure anyone can demand someone else to do something they're not willing to do themselves because that other person doesn't do it... That way anarchy lies (which may be desirable, but on the road I'd prefer a little order and for the time being dispose of the 'two wrongs make a right' justification for me not doing things...). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44156 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:49:42 +0000 mgj 44156@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Dave re "Generally I don't believe in signalling to follow the road (i.e. nobody should expect me to crash into a skip, I'm obviously going to ride around it)"</p> <p>Actually many drivers seem to think that the bike in ET is pretty standard. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44147 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:54:53 +0000 crowriver 44147@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Which leads to the question why don't more people use mirrors?</em></p> <p>I have these <a href="http://www.topeak.com/products/Mirrors/Bar_n_Mirror">Topeak Bar'n'mirror devices</a> on my hybrid. Fold away into bar ends when not in use. Only really use them when I have a child on the back in a seat, or when No.1 son is on tagalong. Handy to keep an eye on him as well as the traffic!</p> <p>Generally, if I see the cycle lane is obstructed ahead I'll just pull out into primary position well in advance, rather than darting around the parked vehicles, etc. As to signalling, if I feel the situation is risky I will, otherwise no, I'll start doing it on all 'necessary' occasions as and when drivers do (ie. never). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44146 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:51:59 +0000 SRD 44146@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm with ruggtomcat. love having the handlebar mirror. my dad had one of those mirrors that clipped onto his glasses (pre-helmet) and I am stuck with idea that they are for old men (it occurs to me that at time I am thinking of, he was younger than I am now...).</p> <p>But, my handlebar mirror is constantly getting bashed and loose, and sometimes gets stuck between brake lever and handlebar...not safe. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44138 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:39:15 +0000 chdot 44138@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Good drivers know that if a cyclist looks over his or her shoulder then they are about to 'change lane/direction'.</p> <p>Mirrors of course negate this bit of body language.</p> <p>"<br /> "<br /> After living with a mirror for a while I wonder how I ever got along without it, not being able to see backwards and forwards at the same time? mental.<br /> "</p> <p>Yep think those sum up the 'dilemma' pretty neatly! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44137 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:38:18 +0000 spitters 44137@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I too have a wee helmet mounted mirror - helmet mounted because it is quicker to look up and see over my shoulder than to look down and see past my beer belly, also handlebar mirror bounces around more than my helmet which has my neck acting as suspension :P </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44136 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:37:46 +0000 kaputnik 44136@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I find frowning backwards works. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44135 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:35:24 +0000 ruggtomcat 44135@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>After living with a mirror for a while I wonder how I ever got along without it, not being able to see backwards and forwards <em>at the same time?</em> mental. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44133 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:31:45 +0000 LaidBack 44133@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>- car-aping gimmick rather than function - </em></p> <p>I've mixed opinions about that. From my bike training perspective looking over you shoulder is required before every time you signal. </p> <p>Good drivers know that if a cyclist looks over his or her shoulder then they are about to 'change lane/direction'.</p> <p>Mirrors of course negate this bit of body language.</p> <p>Some people cannot look behind them easily or safely. Recumbents generally have mirrors - these being in the field of forward vision so working better than on upright bikes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44131 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:23:20 +0000 chdot 44131@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"surreptitious backwards glancing FTW"</p> <p>Which leads to the question why don't more people use mirrors?</p> <p>I haven't since I was a kid - car-aping gimmick rather than function - and I don't know many people who do. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4233#post-44129 Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:15:53 +0000 Dave 44129@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>One of the things that really surprised me about this test commute I've been doing to Penicuik is that people park a large number of vehicles in the bike lane going up Liberton Brae, in rush hour, and it seems to be quite legal.</p> <p>This means having to ride out in the traffic lane while going at ~5mph uphill, right after a busy junction.</p> <p>However what is even more surprising is that the other cyclists I observe riding don't seem to have cottoned on to the oldest trick in the book- actually indicating to pass an obstruction.</p> <p>You can't really see it in my "five minutes from Leith to Penicuik" video because it is so sped up (4 seconds of video is a minute of real life) but I just stick my arm out and move right out into the middle of the road, forcing the following traffic stream to yield. </p> <p>As if by miracle, the whole bunch will slow down and wait for you to pass the car and then zoom off again. </p> <p>As with all things on the road, it works best if it doesn't seem like you are paying any attention (so you need to figure out a way of not pulling out underneath an inattentive lorry driver while making it seem like you haven't even noticed you're riding in traffic - surreptitious backwards glancing FTW).</p> <p>Generally I don't believe in signalling to follow the road (i.e. nobody should expect me to crash into a skip, I'm obviously going to ride around it) but the shock value of the arm signal really seems to knock the British Motorist for six.</p> <p>I'd also like to mention that everyone behind the wheel of a number 37 bus seems to be some kind of driving god. </p>