http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Why I don’t cycle in Edinburgh" en Sun, 31 May 2026 19:00:03 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52376 Mon, 09 Jan 2012 23:09:07 +0000 Instography 52376@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I can't really tell but he appears to accelerate when the red car starts entering the lane, to hold onto it, because the car stops moving in and then he accelerates again to pass it, presumably turning round to fully express his opinion of the driver.</p> <p>I must confess, I always find head cam footage a bit dubious, like there's an element of creating the scenario. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52374 Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:01:53 +0000 Greenroofer 52374@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>And this doesn't really help encourage people to cycle either...<br /> <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-16469477">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-16469477</a></p> <p>OK, it's not Edinburgh, but it's all part of the subliminal message that it's <em>really</em> dangerous everywhere. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52371 Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:54:53 +0000 chdot 52371@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"apologies for the length of this post"</p> <p>No need. This is a very interesting/informative thread. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52370 Mon, 09 Jan 2012 20:25:09 +0000 ExcitableBoy 52370@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I learned to ride in the early 70's as a child in Cardiff. From about 10 years old my friends and I would, without thought or concern, cycle on the major roads when necessary - this was never brought up as a concern by my (nor I doubt their) parents.I don't suppose they even knew.<br /> I went to university in Birmingham and could not afford a bike. You could buy an off-peak travel pass for bus and train covering the whole of the Midlands for £3.70 a fortnight!<br /> Then in 1987 in my early 20's I moved to London to work. I was toying with getting a bike, but hiring a new-fangled mountain bike on a trip to the Lake District meant I had to have one.<br /> Far fewer people cycled in London back then but I loved it. All the argy-bargy in and out of traffic was great fun and I never felt unsafe as average speeds were so slow.<br /> In 1992 I moved to Edinburgh and have cycled here throughout. I still mainly feel safe, but perhaps due to my age, do now feel uneasy at times. Not on the busiest roads, but the moderately busy, faster moving roads eg. Seafield road can be hairy at times with all the lorries flying past you at 40 mph. Also slightly wider roads, with lanes perhaps a car-and-a-half wide now make me feel uneasy, as if I take what I feel is a primary position, cars/lorries try to squeeze past anyway. I do not remember this being an issue in the past, so I'm not sure if I'm getting more wary, noticing it more, or if it's becoming more of an issue. The one place I really do not enjoy cycling is on A roads in the country - with traffic flying past you at 50 or 60 mph.<br /> I do try to convince some people to try cycling, as I think it has so much to offer. How much success I have had is uncertain. Both my children have been on bikes since they were able to hold their heads up and cycling themselves since they were 4 years old. However, my eldest daughter who is now 18 rarely cycles due to: fear of the traffic, the hills, concerns over sweatiness and image. My youngest daughter who is 16 does cycle, to get from A to B and for recreation. She is not concerned overly about traffic.<br /> I teach in a secondary school and the pupils all know this. Whilst I am not the only teacher who cycles there, the majority of the pupils think it is a strange thing to do. Most think that I would sooner drive but am too poor. They are astounded when I tell them that neither my wife or I have a car. They then often ask "do you go out for cycles at the weekends with your wife and children?" and think this is a hilarious idea. The vast majority are desperate to have learn to drive and have a car and a small number as soon as they are old enough do (obviously many more would if they could afford to). Maybe, just maybe however, a few as they get older realise that its an option and give it a try.<br /> More worryingly several of the people I work closely with are quite anti-cycling. They are supportive of me and others at work cycling and some do cycle themselves, on cyclepaths or at Glentress etc at the weekend - but, whenever I have been in the car with them: they moan at any cyclist they see and feel the roads are for cars, they're not much more tolerant of pedestrians! These people will never give up their cars. They moan about the way motorists are given such a raw deal, but they are far too cosy in their cars. Some moan about walking 20 yards across the carpark at work if there's a wee bit of east coast rain. They would never cope with: a hill, or the wind, or ..., or ironically the traffic.<br /> As Crowriver says I too am proud to,<br /> "..claim the identity of cyclist for myself and yes, I'm probably a bit of a born again evangelist on the subject. I fully intend to keep going with cycling as long as my health allows."<br /> I know also that if something were to prevent me from cycling I would miss it greatly and fear I would soon become miserable.</p> <p>[apologies for the length of this post] </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52312 Mon, 09 Jan 2012 14:25:29 +0000 crowriver 52312@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>In 1980, as a boy of 13, I learned to cycle on the streets of a small mill town in the valleys of East Lancashire (after pottering in the garden and nearby pavements initially). Very steep hills, so I soon had to learn how to avoid parked cars at speed, be careful at junctions, appropriate signals, and how to brake! Also how to climb those damn hills again to get home. From age 16 I lived on a small island in Orkney, attending school in Kirkwall. Cycling was something to do in the holidays when it was not too windy. The roads were generally good, and quiet save for the odd car or tractor. The main hazard was letting your attention drift while taking in the views and possibly ending up in a roadside ditch - that and the occasional bull which had broken free of the field it was supposed to be contained within. </p> <p>As a student later on, I didn't use my bike much, as it was hundreds of miles away in Orkney until my final year. In retrospect I should have taken it with me to explore Tayside, Fife and beyond. I didn't even worry about not having a car: very few young people owned or used them in the 1980s. Everyone walked, took the bus, a few cycled.</p> <p>After university I moved back to my birthplace Edinburgh, initially living in rented flats in Marchmont and Morningside. I used my bike as it was the easiest and cheapest way to get around. The Meadows became a key route for me, but I never really thought about whether cycling on roads was a good idea or not. I had no idea there might be off road paths other than in the Meadows, so to get anywhere it was by road, naturally. I spent a few years living in London in the mid-1990s, where I was terrified of the traffic and did not cycle at all: when I left Edinburgh I left my old teenage years racing bike in the street outside my flat for someone to take.</p> <p>When I returned to Edinburgh in the late 1990s, I moved to the Easter Road area and bought a bike straight away. Again I used the roads as I still did not know any paths existed other than in the Meadows. Eventually in the early zeroes I became more aware of the existence of organisations like Spokes: I think I found their web site on the internet. Prior to that I had no idea Spokes, CTC, or other organisations existed, I was not into sports cycling and knew very few people socially who cycled so never heard about them.</p> <p>Buying a Spokes map changed my perceptions of what was possible dramatically. I became more conscious of quieter back street routes (though I knew a few of them anyway). I also discovered the Sustrans NCJN routes, which of course did not exist before the zeroes as they were a Millennium project. As I cycled more and got involved in Spokes, I learned about CTC and joined. Since those days I've met more experienced cyclists who have inspired me to take what I always viewed as just a mode of transport and turn it into a passion.</p> <p>I don't think I've managed to convert anyone to cycling with the exception of my wife and children (with variable success). I am aware of colleagues at work who cycle; others note that I cycle to work and sometimes ask about it. I tried to persuade one colleague to cycle to the station instead of driving or bussing it, and although he has a bike and was thinking about it, I don't think he ever bothered.</p> <p>Since the 1990s at least I've been aware that I'm part of a tiny minority who do not drive and cycle / use public transport instead. Relatives and friends have at least stopped being patronising about it and expecting me to change. I know that they look askance at me, think I'm slightly insane, maybe even feel sorry for me. I've tried telling them how wrong this view is, but there's now a sort of truce where the topic is just not discussed. They are in their motorised bunkers, and I'm in my pedal powered one. </p> <p>I'm proud to reclaim the identity of cyclist for myself and yes, I'm probably a bit of a born again evangelist on the subject. I fully intend to keep going with cycling as long as my health allows. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52301 Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:55:58 +0000 wingpig 52301@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I fortunately jumped straight into city-centre cycling up here when I moved here when I was eighteen and <strike>careless</strike> less cautious than I am now (but still really quite cautious, especially for an eighteen-year-old), though it still took me a while to be anything less than terrified whenever I found myself somewhere like London Road or the big roundabouts towards Sighthill, partially also because I generally didn't know where I was, didn't yet know about the off-road escape routes and would often have to take detours based on where other traffic looked like it would let me go without squishing me when attempting to navigate multi-lane roads and junctions. With downtube-mounted gears. There were very few multi-lane roads where I came from but the biggest risk from cars was to be found around the narrowly-winding wee rural roads.</p> <p>Even back when Princes Street had railings at the side against which buses could attempt to scrape you with the impunity afforded by no CCTV and taxis could be simply sorted into 'very', 'highly' and 'considerably' types of dangerous according to whether or not they were occupied or painted white I never stopped cycling due to personal safety concerns or near-misses, though did give it a rest once or twice for a couple of weeks or months when I got sick of going out for nice relaxing rides only to be angered a few hundred metres from home by a moron cycling on the pavement or skipping a light.</p> <p>I tried to persuade my parents to give it a go (starting with the off-road paths, but not sticking exclusively to them) the last time they were up but they used the cold as an excuse, despite it being colder where they live and my mum being a former postie and them both still regularly cycling. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52300 Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:50:22 +0000 steveo 52300@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>When i first (re)started I took a slightly circuitous route to avoid the right turn at junction with Saughton and Carrick Knowe however after that I was straight up to St Johns road and never really gave the moving traffic much thought, I'm still not entirely comfortable at that junction. However I did commute through from my evening job on George street every day for many years when I was at school and being an indestructible teenager I think I was confident enough with the traffic and I never really lost that. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52298 Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:39:27 +0000 Uberuce 52298@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think my cycling was pretty lapsed when I got back on the bike last summer; hadn't been on a bike for a dozen years. I wasn't willing to mix it up with the heavy traffic for a couple of weeks. I'm fortunate in that there is a flat-job route for me that avoids all busy roads. I'm not sure if I'd have started if I was buried in the centre, so yep, I agree with Dave.</p> <p>I'm trying to get my Mum to cycle, but between weather and retired people's insanely busy social lives, it didn't happen this holiday. I wouldn't even have her go into sleepy old Forfar until she'd got her sea legs back, so to speak. </p> <p>Traffic's a machine, and like any other machine, you're best off familiarising yourself with the simplest version before moving up to the more complex. </p> <p>The housing estate across the road from our house, a set of cul-de-sacs liberally sprinkled with speed bumps and all under a 20mph limit is the equivalent of a fixie, and central Edinburgh is the inside of a Rohloff. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52295 Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:27:28 +0000 kaputnik 52295@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I thought of my own experiences after reading the original post.</p> <p>When I first started cycling in Edinburgh (3? years ago), the only bit of road that I would cycle is quickly rolling down the hill from Bruntsfield to canal then canal to Gyle and back again. Why? I had never cycled in a city in traffic and just didn't know what it would be like and how safe (or otherwise) it was. Just didn't have the confidence.</p> <p>It took me a long time to get bored and frustrated enough with using the canal to begin to venture onto the "other" cycle paths, which required the use of bits of road to join them together.</p> <p>Now I'm fit and wary and used to the tricks of drivers and can anticipate what's going to happen and take avoiding / preventative action I think back and wonder what I was worrying about. Then I remember that I was none of the former when I started out. I also think that it doesn't matter how fit you are and how many wits you have around you, you are still soft and vulnerable flesh and bones at the mercy of drivers. But I don't stop and give it another though as every day I read in the news about more drivers dieing or being seriously injured on the roads and think, in the grand scheme of things, cycling is actually fairly safe. No less safe than driving?</p> <p>For the record, I too have almost been flattened by a bus (which forum members with a long memory will recall was the original topic I started many months / some years ago) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52294 Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:22:23 +0000 Roibeard 52294@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Dave - I'm probably a bit more positive, having added visiting children to the family peloton.</p> <p>However, we'd aim to stick to the cycle paths - I can't say I've promoted commuting to non-cyclists either, just to existing cyclists. That said, I'm not really a cycling evangelist...</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52291 Mon, 09 Jan 2012 12:07:31 +0000 Dave 52291@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>To bring it back to the OP - I'm not sure I would recommend cycling in Edinburgh, not honestly. (As in, if my parents or sisters or someone like that came to visit, and we had spare bikes that fitted, I'd never consider suggesting we use them).</p> <p>Chatting amongst existing cyclists feels different, because they are people who put up with the dangers, and feel they are outweighed by the positives, so discussing strategy and incremental improvements is a different matter.</p> <p>For instance, at work I've suggested cycle commuting only to people who've done it before and are too lazy to get another bike, I've never suggested it to the others. </p> <p>For a huge proportion of people, sitting in a jam and paying through the nose for the privilege is still a big improvement over the experience they'd have riding a bike. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52250 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 21:15:22 +0000 chdot 52250@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You wouldn't see this on a road (yet) -</p> <p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/chdot/6660195577/"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7001/6660195577_2950bc7886.jpg"></a><br /> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/chdot/6660195577/">Busy</a> - today! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52241 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 19:54:53 +0000 chdot 52241@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>If the ‘powers that be’ want us to be healthier, fitter and more environmentally conscious (using cars in city centres less) then it must be backed up with the ‘tools’ to do that. Cycling offers that opportunity but we also need road conditions that are suitable and for all abilities.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.andrewcyclist.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.andrewcyclist.com</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52221 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 13:00:00 +0000 wee folding bike 52221@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>It's right to encourage people to walk/cycle more - but a LOT more needs to be done to get people to be willing/able/confident etc.</em></p> <p>I would also say that it's right for people to eat less fat and more veggies but the Scottish Government campaign on that was judged to be a huge failure. I can't find any links to it but the one I have in mind was a few years ago and featured a guy on the phone except the phone was a fish. I'm really not convinced governments can do this mind changing thing.</p> <p>On the other hand I am seen to cycle every day and people ask me about it. Sometimes they tell me that they have had a go themselves or even just that they are thinking about it. I have converted people before but that was mostly when I lived in London. I don't proselytise, I just get places quickly and cheaply so I suppose London was a better showcase for the advantages. There is still only one kid in my school who cycles but at least the others see that it can be done. The big greenhouse shed at the side of the building lies empty.</p> <p>For the last decade or more governments have been authorising out of town shopping centres and sending us the message that we should go shop there. At least one MSP had (ahem) reasons of her own to do that involving a brown envelope and the developer of the Silverburn shopping mall (it was reported in many of the papers eventually). Even outwith that it sort of made sense for Renfrew to promote the Braehead complex because all the local taxation which might have gone to Glasgow now comes to them. </p> <p>Even I used to frequent the Fort (just off the M8 at Easterhouse) because they had a Jessops. I could upload photos to their web page and pick them up from the shop an hour later. Sometimes I cycled, sometimes I used the car and took kids with me. Since Borders, Blacks and Jessop closed I haven't been there much but if somewhere useful opened up I would probably use it again. It's fairly easy for me to get there from school as it's not as out of town as some others. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931&page=2#post-52220 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 12:46:58 +0000 Smudge 52220@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think sustrans build where they can, some routes are good for travel, some for recreation.<br /> For ( a route) example we convinced one of the girls at work to try commuting by bicycle because the wol allowed her to go from Colinton into the centre without the gauntlet running of the road down past the tennis courts towards Polwarth. It's not a bad route on a hybrid or tourer, though a bit muddy for a skinny tyred road bike. </p> <p>For every X people who get out and ride for recreation on Sustrans routes, a small proportion will enjoy it enough to ride more, discover they can cover surprising distances and become utility riders, some will never make that change, but if they're out for a family ride on bikes it may be instead of a family run in the car, less congestion for the motorists, fewer cars passing the cyclists, the family thinkinf of people on bikes as "like us" rather than "cyclists" etc etc. It all helps in a little, incremental way<br /> By small increments we've seen a mahoosive increase in the number of cyclists round Edinburgh, imho sustrans is one of the contributors to that change. I take my hat off to them (well I would if I was wearing one, and they were here... anyway, you get the idea!) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52219 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 12:41:38 +0000 chdot 52219@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I suppose the point of this particular rant is that the Sustrans routes I see round here are for recreation not transportation."</p> <p>Yes, but that highlights various things. </p> <p>Recreation and transport are not mutually exclusive. </p> <p>Former railway routes in Edinburgh are definitely used for both. Not always the most direct - though they do avoid some hills/valleys. </p> <p>Parts are labeled with NCN numbers but most of the work was done by Lothian Regional Council. </p> <p>In recent years quite a lot of 'basic' infrastructure upgrades have been done by CEC with Sustrans/SG money. </p> <p>Sustrans don't just build stuff they also do a lot of promotion, work with schools etc. </p> <p>If Sustrans had never existed there would be a lot fewer people cycling and a lot fewer places it would be possible to cycle. </p> <p>I wonder if there is a list of the bridges that Sustrans has reinstated or created. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52218 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 12:31:21 +0000 chdot 52218@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"So my campaign would be Cars are useful BUT do you really need another one? Why not Downsize your car, reduce your number of cars, use your car less?. All sounds a bit lame"</p> <p>Not at all "lame". </p> <p>The problems are that there is no coherence and not much evidence that government led 'self interest' campaigns work. </p> <p>UK still imagines that "the great car economy" is more important than most other things. The more people use cars the higher goes GDP - and we all know how important <em>that</em> is. </p> <p>Cars = freedom = votes. People who can't afford cars are less likely to vote, so...</p> <p>Boris has done a lot to encourage cycling BUT he is still keen on 'making the traffic flow smoothly'. </p> <p>One problem is always said to be the short-termism of politicians - looking no further than the next election. </p> <p>However when it comes to major infrastructure investment a longer view is taken. Why is it so difficult to take decisions that will have health benefits/NHS savings in 10-20 years?</p> <p>Clearly there must be statisticians working out the relative costs of healthy people living to 80 v sick people dying at 70.</p> <p>Any such calculations (whatever the conclusions) can't take into account all 'soft' factors. </p> <p>It's right to reduce the number of people smoking. </p> <p>It's right to confront alcohol excesses. </p> <p>It's right to encourage people to walk/cycle more - but a LOT more needs to be done to get people to be willing/able/confident etc. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52215 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 12:20:45 +0000 wee folding bike 52215@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ooooooj I might be churlish about Sustrans. </p> <p>I have a horrible suspicion that the routes they have over here promote cycling as a thing you go somewhere to do and not a way of getting around. There are even handy car parks beside some of them.</p> <p>The one I use every year in England is different. I don't know why as it just follows an old train line across the Isle of Wight from Cowes to Sandown but it has more users than I ever see here and it seems to go to useful places. If it didn't take me from the boat to my auntie's house I wouldn't use it because the surface is poor on the southern half. Lots of tree roots have broken up the tarmac and it's a wee bit like Derek Guyler's washboard but it does take a fairly simple, direct path unlike the road round the coast so that's how I travel.</p> <p>I don't think Sustrans actually have anything to do with the canal path that runs through Kirkintilloch and along the south of the Campsies but it doesn't really go anywhere. It's a nice run but people are going to get there by car and off load their bike like they do at Lochwinnoch, Paisley Canal or the line north from Callendar.</p> <p>Route 75 follows the river through the east end of Glasgow and if you have a look at page 2 on this leaflet:</p> <p><a href="http://www.sustrans.org.uk/assets/files/leaflets/clyde_corridor.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.sustrans.org.uk/assets/files/leaflets/clyde_corridor.pdf</a></p> <p>you can see what that does to the route. It's not really the fastest route between any two points. It can be nice to meander along if you don't mind the occasional hooker (and I don't) but even outwith that it's not going to get you places quickly. Even my old boss who liked the 75 route, and now maintains the western end of it, didn't stick to the path from the Green east because it's just too wriggly.</p> <p>I suppose the point of this particular rant is that the Sustrans routes I see round here are for recreation not transportation. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52214 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 12:14:33 +0000 ruggtomcat 52214@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I agree with mins reading, and to a certain extent the piece.</p> <p>Cycling somewhere with proper segregation, especially in large cities is wonderful. I have been cycling for a long time in all kinds of environments, I've been a courier, tourer and commuter in several countries and have had more near-death experiences on and off the bike than I care to remember. I am not scared of riding, but I do feel that the current traffic systems are very dangerous. In Copenhagen you can just <em>ride to work</em> and the only worry is passing another cyclist. Here we <em>ride in traffic</em> and as was so brilliantly understated by the BJ we have to 'keep our wits about us'.</p> <p>We need better infrastructure. Yes we need more cyclists but we have to acknowledge what prevents people from cycling and deal with it. I really do believe if you build it they will come (if you get it right of course). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52211 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 12:00:45 +0000 gembo 52211@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Edinburgh will never be like Cambridge. Edinburgh is hilly and Cambridge is flat. Go into a Cambridge or indeed Oxford cycling shop and tell them you are from Edinburgh and they go all misty eyed about Glentress.</p> <p>I am approaching ten years of commuting the same route [now partial] and have seen an upsurge of cyclists [first in the summer and often with poor manners, shoaling or just cycling right in front of you at a junction] but now most definitely all year round.</p> <p>Lothian buses nearly all behave in an exemplary manner towards cyclists now. I have seen in this very chatter forum that First Bus are cottoning on a little. So we have some reasons to be cheerful. All a bit melancholy at the moment.</p> <p>When I voted in minority for congestion charges to be introduced to Edinburgh there was a survey [oh yes another survey] saying that Edinburghers love their cars more than anyone else. This is what we are up against. Maybe the cars versus cyclists debate [well worn and moribund script - RLJing, H-ing, No Lights, Hi-viz, No Road Tax pavementing, etc] needs deflected to One Family One Car [OFOC]? The day I fell off on the ice I then had to get back on and cycle to a barge in Leith where an advertising dude who had re-invented himself as ethical ad man [good pitch] described how knife crime was tackled in Strathclyde. Part of the strategy was to tackle those on the fringes and divert them away from gang culture. So my campaign would be Cars are useful BUT do you really need another one? Why not Downsize your car, reduce your number of cars, use your car less?. All sounds a bit lame but I am trying to come up with a strategy that would have some impact and which the Scottish Govt wouldn't be scared of. They need to promote more exercise but they need to link that to using the car less. They are very scared of most things. Why do we not have higher taxation? Business would move south. Why are we not independent? Business would move south. Why are we not effectively tackling the very obvious issues around driving? [Congestion, environment, casualty, fatality] </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52210 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 12:00:00 +0000 chdot 52210@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"And I'm not convinced it makes a great difference."</p> <p>That depends...</p> <p>Whatever the 'cycling establishment' (an almost rude allegation/slur) thinks about on/off-road facilities it's only the most churlish who don't think that Sustrans is a good idea. </p> <p>Sustrans paths are far from perfect, not always in the right place etc. etc., but they undoubtedly have encouraged people to try cycling. They may become healthier, they may become road/commuter cyclists, they may drive less - they may even drive more to get their bikes to Sustrans paths!</p> <p>Mr. Swinney likes to be cautious about spending money (I won't use the word prudent...) and likes to see "evidence" of value for money. </p> <p>The problem is that he, and all other politicians live in worlds where MASSIVE sums have to be spent on Forth Bridges, Aberdeen bypasses, HS2s, trams, Tridents, etc. because 'they are worth it'/'necessary for the economy' - 'we' are all too stupid to understand this. </p> <p>Mr. Swinney's Government also did away with a lot of ring-fencing - mostly a good thing in my opinion. Results are that LAs, theoretically, have more control over what they spend. So most cycle facilities are the responsibility of LAs, not "the Government" - except of course that a lot of them wouldn't happen without Sustrans money - which comes from The Government. </p> <p>In addition, of course, Mr. S has imposed a Council Tax freeze, so even councils that 'like' cycling find it hard to 'justify' spending. </p> <p>And yet Scottish Government's New Year message included 'drive less, walk/cycle more'. </p> <p>And it talks about "preventative spending". </p> <p>Not-a-lot-of-joined-up-thinking.</p> <p>This is NOT a PARTY issue - they are all as bad as each other. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52208 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:59:23 +0000 Nelly 52208@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If her aim is to improve cycling overall then more power to her.</p> <p>Its her blog and she is entitled to her opinion - and if she perused this forum would no doubt be delighted at the debate / traffic.</p> <p>As I said before, singling out one city is pointless, as they all have things to learn - including cambridge.</p> <p>Edinburgh might not be the best to cycle in UK (I wouldnt want to speculate), but its is not the worst based on what I have seen - e.g. if paths is your thing, many would be delighted to have the ones we already have.</p> <p>Edinburghs biggest cycling issue is the road system and how cyclists interact with other road users. </p> <p>I am not convinced that any administration is ready to take any step which removes perceived 'rights' to car users and gifts them to peds/cyclists - as evidenced by the South Edinburgh 20mph nonsense. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52207 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:25:05 +0000 wee folding bike 52207@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>This is why it's so disappointing that the current SNP Government is planning to reduce the relatively tiny amount on 'active travel'.</em></p> <p>And I'm not convinced it makes a great difference. </p> <p>Perhaps it's different in the mysterious east but in the west spending on cycling usually means paint on the pavement. I don't have data for it but I'm not <em>aware</em> of any great increase in the number of people cycling here over the last 20-30 years. Although I went to school in Ayr I've been cycling round Glasgow since the early '80s. They only thing I can think of which makes a wee difference is the ASLs and even they merely formalise what I would have done anyway.</p> <p>Glasgow are spending cash on "Copenhagen" style paths in the east of the city where the bulk of the Commonwealth Games building will be. A cynic might suggest this is because it was easier to move the people in this area of town. I've seen the first of these paths and I have no idea why anyone would want to use it.</p> <p>It's hard to believe they could be worse than the ones Stewart photographed 10 years ago:</p> <p><a href="http://scruss.com/enterprise.net/crappylanes.html" rel="nofollow">http://scruss.com/enterprise.net/crappylanes.html</a></p> <p>but they do appear to have managed that at the Tron gate. It seems Andy has been busy taking photos of it which you might be able to see here:</p> <p><a href="http://www.cyclestreets.net/photos/space/33495/" rel="nofollow">http://www.cyclestreets.net/photos/space/33495/</a></p> <p>Rather than just going straight through a controlled junction we're supposed to take a left though a residential area then a right then cross the Saltmarket and take a right back up to the Tron where we can take a left to be where we would have been anyway. Perhaps I misunderstand it but that seems to be the idea.</p> <p>There seemed to be spending for spending's sake on the run up to Velocity in the '90s. If that's what they spend it on I'd rather they did something more useful with the cash. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52206 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:06:26 +0000 Min 52206@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>She's saying that Edinburgh's too dangerous to cycle (unlike Cambridge).</em></p> <p>So far the Scottish Government's "policy" for increasing active travel is to tell people that they should be cycling more and driving less whilst slashing the budget for active travel and spending billions on more and bigger roads. </p> <p>Perhaps what it therefore needs is for more people to stand up and say that no, they bloody well will not cycle more until they start properly investing in making it safer. </p> <p><em>"OK, so she supports improvements and maybe in some future life when Edinburgh is more like Cambridge it'll be OK to cycle but that only makes the message to get off your bike until it's been fixed. "</em></p> <p>I'm not getting that message at all. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52205 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:00:16 +0000 chdot 52205@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Car drivers are a bigger target altogether"</p> <p>I agree with that, but one part of the problem is politicians buying the 'war on motorists' rhetoric. </p> <p>This leads them to imagine that <em>all</em> drivers want higher speed limits, no speed cameras and other 'restrictions on liberty'.</p> <p>The posters on here are hardly 'representative' but demonstrate that it's possible to take more rational view on car use, road space, 'safety' etc. </p> <p>This should be encouraged not further marginalised. </p> <p>This is why it's so disappointing that the current SNP Government is planning to reduce the relatively tiny amount on 'active travel'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52203 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 09:42:20 +0000 wee folding bike 52203@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Governments are prepared to take on vested interests such as tobacco manufacturers and the drinks industry -</em></p> <p>By the time the smoking ban was instituted smokers were a minority and minimum pricing for alcohol (now supported by the Tories in Westminster apparently) would only have affected a small number of drinkers many of whom might be infrequent voters.</p> <p>Car drivers are a bigger target altogether. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52202 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:00:18 +0000 chdot 52202@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"While I don't like crossing certain roads because of the aggressiveness (and non-indicator usage) of some drivers I have never (or very rarely) felt scared and intimidated in the way I often do whilst cycling."</p> <p>I get scared while cycling a few times a year, and unnerved more often. </p> <p>I still prefer cycling to walking. Without intending to sound flippant, I am more experienced as a bike rider on the roads than a walker across them. </p> <p>I doubt if too many pedestrians feel confident - certainly on the busier and faster roads. It's not really surprising that more people don't try to cycle. </p> <p>The UK is a long way from a more equitable balance between road users. In Edinburgh and Scotland many arguments appear(ed) to have been won with targets for cycle use, but the sad reality is that there isn't really the political will to change things. </p> <p>Governments are prepared to take on vested interests such as tobacco manufacturers and the drinks industry - though it would help if political parties didnt engage in petty point scoring. </p> <p>All parties want 'road safety', they sort of want more people to walk and cycle,</p> <p>BUT... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52199 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:48:52 +0000 Instography 52199@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If it doesn't say "why it's a sensible decision not to cycle in Edinburgh" and by implication, suggest that it would be a sensible decision for everyone, then I don't know what the point of it is beyond a bit of self-indulgent putting it out there. I mean, she's not suggesting that people should cycle in Edinburgh until they've had a near death experience. She's not saying, "cycle Edinburgh until the Big Bad Bus comes for you". She's saying that Edinburgh's too dangerous to cycle (unlike Cambridge).</p> <p>OK, so she supports improvements and maybe in some future life when Edinburgh is more like Cambridge it'll be OK to cycle but that only makes the message to get off your bike until it's been fixed. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52198 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:42:46 +0000 gembo 52198@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I read the piece It is quite long and I skimmed a little. It is totally a personal account. From the narrative the writer learned to cycle in Cambridge as a girl. She then went to Gillespies School and from her perspective boys bullied her by breaking her bike because she was a girl but her mum had a word with the school and she was allowed to lock her bike up inside. She continued cycling and felt she would certainly have been killed by a bus if she hadn't dismounted and jumped clear onto the pavement. </p> <p>From memory of the piece she also didn't give up straight away just after a while.</p> <p>It is her explanation of why she gave up cycling in Edinburgh - I confess I don't know if she goes on to say she cycles elsewhere? Or that she is trying to persuade others to stop [I maybe filtered that out]</p> <p>Anyway, it is a free country and opinions can be expressed.</p> <p>I am saddened by the death of the man from Balerno where i also stay [i didn't know him] but I will continue to cycle because I love it. Clearly, it is not without risk but I am willing to take the risk and the family of the man who died are now campaigning to make cycling in Edinburgh safer. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4931#post-52197 Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:38:17 +0000 Min 52197@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"If she wrote one that outlined how Edinburgh needs to change to make cycling safe, I'd be supporting her. But I can't support something that says "I got off my bike and so should you"."</em></p> <p>It doesn't say that. The upcoming demo about funding for active transport is mentioned and also how a local councillor will be looking at possible road safety measures on Lanark Road. She clearly supports changes to make cycling safer in Edinburgh.</p> <p>I have never cycled in Cambridge so if she feels safe cycling there then who am I to contradict her? People are killed in the Netherlands also but it is supposedly the safest place in the world to cycle and people <em>feel</em> safe there. </p>