CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Cycle Training

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Cycle Training - any chance of progress? http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Cycle Training - any chance of progress? en Wed, 13 May 2026 01:54:12 +0000 chdot on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-4842 Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:16:45 +0000 chdot 4842@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " Alison Johnstone, Green councillor for Meadows and Morningside, also expressed fears after it emerged that just one in six pupils gets cycle training in primaries. She said: "In the absence of a genuine proven commitment to cycle training for P6 and P7 pupils, I would have concerns that this could well lead to more children being driven to high school and we need to really be doing more to encourage a culture of cycling and safer waking routes to school. "The sad fact is that there are far too many primary schools which don't have walking buses and very few children are being given the chance to learn to cycle before they go up to high school." " <a href="http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Father39s-fury-at-scrapping-of.6197066.jp" rel="nofollow">http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Father39s-fury-at-scrapping-of.6197066.jp</a> chdot on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-4420 Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:20:40 +0000 chdot 4420@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ 46. Peter Hawkins of the Cycle Touring Club Scotland described the problem as follows— “It is like having a product to market and sell: if your sales pitch focuses on cycle training, and you are telling people that cycling is a wonderful thing and that they should do it, you must have a product behind that. The infrastructure must be cycle friendly in the first place.” ALSO pars. 48 - 74 <a href="http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/ticc/reports-10/trr10-04.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/ticc/reports-10/trr10-04.htm</a> Kim on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-4415 Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:10:17 +0000 Kim 4415@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ This is getting a wee bit circular. chdot on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-4409 Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:03:12 +0000 chdot 4409@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "I don't disagree with any of that, I just maintain that there is a need for adult training as well." I have never disputed that. The point is without good, virtually universal, CT at school there will be another lost generation. Kim on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-4408 Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:00:11 +0000 Kim 4408@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @ chdot I don't disagree with any of that, I just maintain that there is a need for adult training as well. We have a lost generation of adults who need a wee bit of help, in the form of training and mentorring, to get them on to bikes and enjoying Active Travel in the city. chdot on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-4376 Fri, 26 Mar 2010 11:03:03 +0000 chdot 4376@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Bold highlights by me "Conclusion on cycle training 71. The Committee believes that it is crucial that young people gain experience of cycling in order to build up the confidence to use bicycles and establish a ‘cycling habit’ early on in their lives. On the committee’s visit to Copenhagen, members heard that if people start cycling at an early age, they will continue doing so as they grow older. 72. In the view of the Committee, a well-managed effective cycle training scheme should be an important part of any approach to improving participation in cycling. 73. Yet the Committee heard that the current provision of cycle training in Scotland does not appear to be adequate. Firstly, insufficient numbers of young people are participating in cycle training. Second the structure of delivery of training appear patchy and unclear with an over-reliance on volunteers. The Committee notes the experience of cycle training in England, where a centralised scheme appears to have been successful. The Committee wishes to see an end to the current situation in Scotland where so many young people grow up receiving no practical cycle training. 74. The Committee recommends that the Scottish Government sets out in the Cycling Action Plan for Scotland a detailed strategy for increasing participation in cycle training in Scotland. The Committee is attracted to the model of a more centrally managed scheme which allows for common accepted standards of cycle training to be put in place in a consistent manner across the country. The Committee considers that this should allow for an agreed minimum standard of training to be given to all young people. A new nationally approved and co-ordinated training scheme would also benefit from economies of scale as it would be organised on a national rather than a local authority level. The Committee is also of the view that improvements to cycling infrastructure will need to take place in order to realise the benefits of improved cycle training. This is discussed later in this report." <a href="http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/ticc/reports-10/trr10-04.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/ticc/reports-10/trr10-04.htm</a> Kim on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-3901 Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:33:37 +0000 Kim 3901@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @ chdot, yes she really has missed the point, cycling is about Transport not sport, it is about learning a life skill, is about learning about how to negotiate traffic, if is far more than mere sport. We should email her (marilyne.macLaren@edinburgh.gov.uk) and put her straight on this. Kim on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-3900 Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:08:53 +0000 Kim 3900@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "a health and safety risk"!! Walking to school?? All children should be walking or cycling to school! They weren't born with wheels. Min on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-3895 Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:27:28 +0000 Min 3895@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Never mind that, look at this letter in the EEN. :-( <a href="http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/opinion/Letters-New-Forth-crossing-infringes.6162207.jp" rel="nofollow">http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/opinion/Letters-New-Forth-crossing-infringes.6162207.jp</a> "MY CLASS (primary seven) has just heard that we might not be getting the bus passes that we need for when we go to high school. When we heard about this we were very sad and also angry because we need them and it's also a health and safety risk because anything could happen to us if we started walking to school. Some of us are scared about it too, because someone has been hurt at a Musselburgh park and it is right beside the high school. We need to get people to see how much we need this bus pass. It's also costing us more money that we just don't have because of the credit crunch. So please help us make people aware." chdot on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-3894 Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:18:04 +0000 chdot 3894@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Just noticed. <a href="http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/Schools-urged-to-get-on.6151516.jp" rel="nofollow">http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/Schools-urged-to-get-on.6151516.jp</a> "City education leader Marilyne MacLaren said: "We want to encourage the uptake of all sports within our schools as it is important for all children and young people to lead an active and healthy lifestyle." Another point missed..... Smudge on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-3677 Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:53:11 +0000 Smudge 3677@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Agreed, completely. Someone once said that eventually rising fuel prices will see the fossil fuel vehicle reach the place that horses now have in society, a luxury transport mode reserved for lesiure use. I think maybe that would be a not bad use for it! (and there speaks a petrolhead, :-o times must be changing!!) Kim on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-3676 Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:09:13 +0000 Kim 3676@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It is not the level of car ownership that is the problem, it is the level of (unnecessary) car usage that is the problem. The Germans have higher car ownership then we do, but they use their cars far less, because they have a range of transport options open to them. Here we don't give people the same easy choices, car use is made as easy as possible at the expense of other transport options. That is what we need to turn around, make using the car for short journeys and urban transport less attractive, while making active travel more attractive. Smudge on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-3669 Sat, 13 Mar 2010 11:19:24 +0000 Smudge 3669@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Edited to add, statistics, when remotely connected to politicians, is an untrustworthy business. Whilst I agree on the whole with you, I have to be inherently suspicious of *any* figures coming from the government, an organisation who consider the revenue from fuel duty as money coming from motorists, but the VAT charged on fuel duty as a seperate and unconnected income (let alone the brass neck of charging tax on the tax they are taking from people(!) lies, damned lies and politics...) My personal feeling is that, as you say, the motorists cost more than they (we!) give, however I also suspect the Govt use very very suspect manipulation of the figures to show a minimal income from motorists in order to justify ever harsher taxes. Very hard to find facts through the fog of claim, counter-claim and downright lies! But then no surprises from people who think they shouldn't have to stand in the dock or be subject to due process in the courts when they get caught (allegedly) defrauding their employers, but that is a different soapbox so I'll shut up about that ;-) I think we are both however agreed that more people on two wheels would do an awful lot of good, and a fundemental change of attitude is required, both from the car users and from the politicians who should serve us. Hopefully the slow chages I see around town can be continued. Smudge on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-3667 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 23:29:28 +0000 Smudge 3667@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Ok maybe poor choice of words, the government extract a *lot* of money from motorists, a sudden largeish reduction in car use/ownership would still leave them many of the costs but radically reduce the cash coming in.. Kim on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495&page=2#post-3664 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:03:02 +0000 Kim 3664@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Motorists? Cash cows?? Is this some sort of parallel universe? <a href="http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmtran/103/10304.htm">Are motorists overtaxed?</a> The evidence says not. They don't even cover <a href="http://kimharding.net/blog/?p=470">the full cost</a> of the damage they do. Smudge on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3663 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:43:39 +0000 Smudge 3663@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "What ever happened to the concept of joined up thinking in policy making? ;-) " Always was and probably always will be just that... a concept ;-) Smudge on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3662 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:42:40 +0000 Smudge 3662@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ So, just for instance, run adult cycle training at workplaces (it's amazing what people will do if you offer them an hour away from the desk ;-)) or even offer sessions in pub car parks on a weekend for the hour before opening time.. grown ups get an excuse to go to the pub, pub gets customers, authorities get to look pro-active and more people get exposed to bikes... The only thing stopping imaginative and effective promotion of cycling (and moped/motorcycling for that matter) is Government apathy combined with a nagging worry that if they cure the jams and get loads of people out of their cars they (the govt) may lose some of those lovely cash cows, the motorists... :-< Kim on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3661 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:50:13 +0000 Kim 3661@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ What ever happened to the concept of joined up thinking in policy making? ;-) chdot on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3655 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:23:53 +0000 chdot 3655@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Cycle lessons are for kids. Bikes are for kids Driving lessons are for grown-ups. Cars are for grown-ups." Obviously there are people who think like that. It doesn't help that L&B Police gave up Cycle Training to concentrate on 'young driver training'. As I've said, doing CT isn't going to (by itself) transform the world. 20-30 years ago it would be reasonable to say 'bikes are for kids'. Raleigh (then the UK's largest bike manufacturer - not just importer) hardly made adult bikes beyond the traditional 3 speeds and 10 speed "racers". Since then 'Mountain Bikes' have changed many things. Originally they were a (n adult) plaything for going down hill. Then Californian innovation and Japanese manufacturing made much better gears and brakes widely available. This led to a sport/leisure boom and in turn bikes (MTB and 'hybrid') that were more comfortable for most people (straight bars), with reliable (indexed), hill climbing (low) gears + brakes that worked even when it rained. So there is less of a view that bikes are just for kids. 'CT is for kids' may lead some people to be too embarrassed to admit they want to do it. My view is that CT should a normal part of school along with reading, writing, music, swimming etc. etc. - none of which you would really expect to rely on slightly trained volunteers to deliver. The cost benefits of encouraging kids to cycle at an age when they are keen to be encouraged to cycle are massive. Sadly politicians and Government officials pay lip service to this and pass the buck. 'Cycling is transport' (not Education or Health), 'how kids get to school is the parents' responsibility', 'we can't do CT because we can't get volunteers'. Min on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3650 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:41:09 +0000 Min 3650@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Aye indeed. There is not a captive audience of adults to give cycle training to but there are certainly a load who claim that they drive because there are too many cars. Getting them into cycling would have a quicker and longer term benefit IMO than teaching only kids and hoping that a few keep cycling when they are older. Otherwise: Cycle lessons are for kids. Bikes are for kids Driving lessons are for grown-ups. Cars are for grown-ups. chdot on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3639 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:40:47 +0000 chdot 3639@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "As for the Active Schools Co-ordinators, I happen to know that most (if not all) of the Midlothian team are qualified cycle trainers, but they don't have the resources to go round every school giving training." Edinburgh too, but the point about "resources" is how they are allocated. IF CT was higher up the list of ASCs' responsibilities this significant amount of 'resource' (staff time) would be available to train trainers and children. Kim on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3637 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:20:26 +0000 Kim 3637@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I am not against cycle training for children, of the 1,113 P6/P7 pupils received cycle training in 2008-9, I trained about 80. However, there are a lot of adults out there who would like to get back into cycling, as cycling is becoming fashionable, but they are afraid of the traffic, (which is on reason why they stop their children from going out and cycling on their own) and lack confidence to get started. There are also young adults, who have only ridden on off road paths and MTBing who want to start commuting who don't know the rules of the road, who take their cues from the behaviour of other they see around them, jumping red lights, riding on the pavements, etc... These group need training. Giving cycle training to adults also has the added benefit of changing their attitudes to cyclist when driving, even those who cycle already. Concentrating on providing training for P6/P7 pupils may (or may not) solve the problem in 20 years time, but it isn't enough to hit the target of 15% of all journeys by bike by 2020. As for the Active Schools Co-ordinators, I happen to know that most (if not all) of the Midlothian team are qualified cycle trainers, but they don't have the resources to go round every school giving training. Dave on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3636 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:25:42 +0000 Dave 3636@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The thing about adult cycle training (which I have no inherent problem with) is that there are serious obstacles to implementing it. People only take driving lessons because it's a legal prerequisite of getting a car (and many don't even bother then). I simply can't imagine getting anybody in the office to adult cycling lessons, free or otherwise. I agree that cycle lessons at school are hardly a silver bullet. But kids are a captive audience and funding can come through central channels. It's unrealistic to hope that many (if any) will turn their back on society's obsession with cars, but no other method offers this either. chdot on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3634 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:34:27 +0000 chdot 3634@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "the majority are still just waiting until they can get a car." I suspect that is probably mostly true. At 17 I was allowed to use my parents car sometimes. At that time we lived 5 miles away from main town with busy roads and bad bus service. My children went past 17 without cars, don't have driving licences and still cycle (in London). Mixture of parental influence and upringing in central Edinburgh, where walking was/is a serious option for 'social travel'. A lot of teenagers give up cycling (particularly girls) because one or more of their close friends doesn't cycle, so they walk or get the bus together. It's much more difficult to group gossip by bike. You know how much motorists love side by side cyclists. Key thing is for the non-cycling period to become a gap rather than permanent. If children are confident/competent at late primary/early secondary age, 'returning' to cycling is simpler. There may also be a reduction in teen/student pavement cycling... Min on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3632 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:20:06 +0000 Min 3632@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Not really that many 17 year olds who can afford to buy/run a car." No but previous experience of being a seventeen year old showed me that there are probably enough around to give their friends a lift or enough parents who will lend their kids the car. The rest are just waiting until they can afford a car. I think it is fair to say that pretty much the only kid at my school who kept cycling was me. The ones who could afford a car at 17 drove them to school. I don't see any difference in the "youth of today" at all. Apart from a slight trend towards cycle commuting in the last few years, the majority are still just waiting until they can get a car. chdot on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3631 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:08:12 +0000 chdot 3631@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "All well and good but ultimately wasted if they instantly give it up as soon as they hit seventeen and buy a car." Not really that many 17 year olds who can afford to buy/run a car. Suspect there will be more spending their money on expensive mountain bikes. That's one thing that has changed in the last 20 years 'coolness' of riding a bike due to MTBing. How much that translates into transport/commuting is another matter. Certainly deals with the exercise/obesity issues - and certainly doesn't stop at 17. chdot on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3630 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:00:35 +0000 chdot 3630@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "In 20 years the kids of today will be the parents of tomorrow." EXACTLY! Of course it's a 20 year process that should have been in place for the last 20 years. With the new Curriculum for Excellence and the funding of Active School Co-ordinator posts it should be simple. With all the 'concern' about exercise in school, 'active travel', 'safe routes to school', obesity etc. etc. it should just be a byproduct of all the joined-up-thinking that politicians keep talking about. As for training adults, that's partially a legacy of lack of universal training at primary school. I think some sort of bicycle/awareness training should be part of the driving test - but that's a whole other area... Min on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3628 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:49:30 +0000 Min 3628@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ All well and good but ultimately wasted if they instantly give it up as soon as they hit seventeen and buy a car. Unless you invest in training for adults as well it just reinforces the stereotype that cycling is for kids. Dave on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3627 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:37:40 +0000 Dave 3627@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ In 20 years the kids of today will be the parents of tomorrow. Even if they don't take up cycling as a result, investment in rigorous cycle training for all kids would go a long way to normalise it for future generations (it will also, obviously, benefit all the ones who *do* cycle). Because of the way the catchment system works, journeys from home to school are almost guaranteed to be cyclable and so targeting schools to incentivise active travel is very very winnable. Kim on "Cycle Training - any chance of progress?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=495#post-3625 Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:56:12 +0000 Kim 3625@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I agree with Smudge and LaidBack. Chdot I wasn't say that we don't need to teach kids, we do, but it isn't going to be enough by it self, we have to teach the adults as well. One of the things I have found is that when you given an adult cycle training it changes the way they drive as well. What we really want is a situation where people feel they have a choice in the way they travel. Currently driving is heavily incentivised and the level of car traffic is a very real barrier to active travel (that is a trendy way of saying walking and cycling). We need to find ways of redressing the balance in favour of active travel.