http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Fears capital could lose its World Heritage Site status" en Thu, 21 May 2026 07:52:16 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952&page=2#post-358206 Fri, 28 Jan 2022 13:16:00 +0000 chdot 358206@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/council/edinburghs-new-town-bins-row-heritage-body-says-council-plans-would-cause-significant-harm-to-world-heritage-site-3545196" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/council/edinburghs-new-town-bins-row-heritage-body-says-council-plans-would-cause-significant-harm-to-world-heritage-site-3545196</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952&page=2#post-354938 Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:02:01 +0000 chdot 354938@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/23/we-dont-need-unesco-listing-says-new-liverpool-heritage-chief" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/23/we-dont-need-unesco-listing-says-new-liverpool-heritage-chief</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952&page=2#post-353276 Fri, 30 Jul 2021 19:01:12 +0000 ejstubbs 353276@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-58024139">Stonehenge tunnel campaigners win court battle</a></p> <p><em>Mr Justice Holgate's ruling means the order granted by transport secretary Grant Shapps has been quashed.</p> <p>...</p> <p>In his ruling the judge found Mr Shapps' decision was "unlawful" on two grounds.<br /> He found there was a "material error of law" in the government's decision-making process as there was no evidence of the impact on each individual asset at the site.<br /> And he said Mr Shapps had failed to consider alternative schemes, in accordance with the World Heritage Convention and common law.</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952&page=2#post-353264 Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:04:20 +0000 chdot 353264@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2021/jul/30/uk-cultural-landmarks-may-lose-world-heritage-status-says-unesco-chief-stonehenge" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2021/jul/30/uk-cultural-landmarks-may-lose-world-heritage-status-says-unesco-chief-stonehenge</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952&page=2#post-353082 Sat, 24 Jul 2021 10:12:40 +0000 Morningsider 353082@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think a very important detail is being lost in this recent reporting. The Golden Turd didn't appear because "Edinburgh" wanted it. This is what Edinburgh planning officials recommended in their report to the development management sub-committee (meeting 12 August 2015):</p> <p><blockquote>The proposed building is greater in its form and height than the form established by the outline planning permission, 08/03361/OUT, to which this application relates. The proposed form would have an adverse impact on the City's Skyline contrary to Policy Des 10 Tall Buildings, because it is too big at the uppermost levels of the building and because the spiral feature proposed is too visually bulky.</p> <p>The proposed hotel would adversely affect the character and appearance of the New Town Conservation Area and would have a detrimental impact on the Outstanding Universal Value of the World Heritage Site, contrary to policies ENV6 and ENV 1 respectively. The proposals would also have an adverse impact on the setting of key listed buildings contrary to policy ENV 3.</p> <p>There are no material considerations that outweigh this conclusion.</blockquote></p> <p>The Committee voted 7 to 5 in favour of approval, despite the officials recommending refusal and strong opposition to the proposal from the Cockburn Association, Edinburgh World Heritage Trust and others. This lies at the door of the Edinburgh Tories and SNP, who approved it. </p> <p>I think any Tory or SNP councillor who opposes cycle infrastructure on aesthetic grounds should be reminded that they were happy to support a blight on the city visible for miles around and liable to be in place for decades to come. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952&page=2#post-353073 Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:37:27 +0000 chdot 353073@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>Edinburgh, one of Europe’s handsomest cities, is the surprising example. The central city has a voluble professional class that has been fighting proposed changes to the Georgian New Town since the 1960s. Its protests prevented an urban motorway of the kind that destroyed so much of Glasgow, where the middle class had decamped to the suburbs. Still – somehow – the New Town has acquired a hotel surmounted by what Edinburgh knows as the Golden Turd, a large bronzed steel coil that twists to a peak, like dog shit, to demean one of the world’s most celebrated skylines. Liverpool has nothing quite as whimsical, but its attempt to turn its grandiose Edwardian waterfront into a toytown version of Shanghai ended this week, as many predicted it would, in its delisting by Unesco as a world heritage site. </p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/23/modernist-civic-historic-buildings-liverpool-waterfront-shangai" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/23/modernist-civic-historic-buildings-liverpool-waterfront-shangai</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952&page=2#post-353070 Fri, 23 Jul 2021 19:26:31 +0000 chdot 353070@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/23/stonehenge-may-be-next-uk-site-to-lose-world-heritage-status" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/23/stonehenge-may-be-next-uk-site-to-lose-world-heritage-status</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952&page=2#post-353050 Thu, 22 Jul 2021 18:55:03 +0000 crowriver 353050@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Unless you're in a conservation area it's no problem to fit double glazing in a tenement. As has been pointed out though, there will still be lots of draughts from just about everywhere else. C19th tenements are <em>supposed</em> to be draughty - it's part of the ventilation required for traditional fireplaces (even if subsequently these have been bricked up). </p> <p>The simplest and most effective bit of insulation you can fit is in the loft/attic/roof space. Our attic rooms are really well insulated and are very cosy as a result. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952&page=2#post-353046 Thu, 22 Jul 2021 14:50:21 +0000 Dave 353046@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You could insulate the wall internally, you wouldn't need to lose much depth if you just want to avoid condensation. It might even be possible to tear off lathe and plaster and replace with an insulated plasterboard and keep the existing cornice intact. When I did our bathroom I put 25mm of celotex against the bricks, then boarded and tiled over the top. There's no real condensation in the bathroom even in winter now. It won't save much in terms of energy bills though (probably never pay back) due to the thin insulation, but for shifting the condensation issue maybe worth looking into. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952&page=2#post-353045 Thu, 22 Jul 2021 14:06:44 +0000 neddie 353045@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks Dave.</p> <p>We do run a dehumidifier in the laundry / utility room. I'm a bit reluctant to add a second one in the back bedroom, though. I'd rather try to fix the problem at source.</p> <p>The back bedroom is the main problem area: North-facing exterior wall, two people producing breath at night, not desirable to leave the window open during the winter (or indeed most of the year)...</p> <p>Maybe some middle-class bookcases stacked against the exterior wall would help...</p> <p>I guess we'll just stick to heating the place to never more than 18.0 degrees and adding the jumpers / blankets as required... Meh. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952&page=2#post-353044 Thu, 22 Jul 2021 14:02:43 +0000 gembo 353044@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>We had those windows when I was young</p> <p>They were old but they were beautiful and their colours they were fine<br /> In the grand old days of yore<br /> They were the sash windows<br /> My father wore</p> <p>Actually we had metal framed windows that poured condensation into the house and gave us the consumptive’s spit.</p> <p>Now we are middle class just had one sill re-replaced. The old wood abides and one bottom sash fixed again (gets hit by prevailing weather)</p> <p>Attic has plastic double glazed in the dorma</p> <p>And wasps in the Velux that have come to stay despite the poisons. Boy were they angry last night. Happy again today.</p> <p>I have contacted Morrissey as you can’t rid yourself of wasps until The Queen Is Dead </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952&page=2#post-353043 Thu, 22 Jul 2021 13:27:56 +0000 Dave 353043@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've looked into this sort of stuff a bit for our 60s wimpey box house. I don't think it's a great option for a tenament unless it's being wholesale renovated, as you need it to be very airtight. If you have air infiltration through the floorboards / skirting / around pipes / etc. etc. then you're probably not going to get that much benefit for the considerable disruption.</p> <p>If it's periodically damp you could run a simple dehumidifier, we do this when we need to dry washing indoors. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952&page=2#post-353042 Thu, 22 Jul 2021 12:38:26 +0000 neddie 353042@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Yodhrim</p> <p>Who would be the best person or company to speak to with regard to getting a near-passive retrofit done?</p> <p>I've heard that MVHR units are problematic - requiring frequent maintenance and cleaning, otherwise getting blocked, etc. Is this true?</p> <p>We live in a traditional, stone built, listed tenement - would it still be possible to fit a MVHR?</p> <p>I don't think I'll be putting any sprayfoam in the wall cavities, that sounds like a slow motion (and difficult to reverse) disaster waiting to happen. It might be possible to further insulate the internal side of the walls (at the expense of partly covering the cornicing / skirting and making that look ugly)</p> <p>Do you see how problematic everything is? Nowhere to turn... :-( </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-353041 Thu, 22 Jul 2021 12:34:18 +0000 MediumDave 353041@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Given the prevailing level of competence in the general UK building sector, expecting them to successfully carry out complex thermal modelling and insulation/ventilation retrofits on a mass scale is a very tall order. </p> <p>Until that is sorted (and it's likely to take a generation or two and possibly a requirement for insured guarantees for jobs above a certain size to inject the required level of rigour) I think I'll stick with my current "leaky tent"[1] and a £20 padded shirt if it gets a bit parky. </p> <p>Like neddie I certainly don't plan to let some crew of halfwits from the latest energy-efficiency scheme loose on my house to "fix" the insulation. </p> <p>If I was king, my ruthlessly-efficient secret police would ensure that any new houses built were of the correct standard and done properly. Currently the standards for those are *still* rubbish. Once there's a good pool of upskilled builders, then would be the time to engage with the more complex retrofit problem. </p> <p>[1] I think that's the preferred disparaging term of the PassivHaus designers... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-353040 Thu, 22 Jul 2021 12:22:58 +0000 neddie 353040@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Deleted. Posts crossed </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-353039 Thu, 22 Jul 2021 12:17:13 +0000 Yodhrin 353039@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Exactly. </p> <p>The main issue with insulating stone walls is more to do with condensation forming between the insulation and the stone than the interior of the structure, and yes that is a pain to solve unless you're willing to spend to get the right kind of sprayfoam done.</p> <p>The latter issue is taken care of by installing an MVHR system that steadily removes stale air through one set of vents, runs it through a no-contact heat exchanger with the fresh air being pulled in to equalize the new air's temperature(they're not 100% efficient obviously, but if the air you're exhausting is 20c the air the system brings in will be about 17 or 18c), then pumps the fresh, dehumidified(in good MVHRs) air back throughout the house again. These units are standard in a lot of new builds with a good level of airtightness, and they're essential in an ENERphit or Passivehaus context.</p> <p>As to the windows collecting moisture from the walls - not if the installation is done properly. A proper near-passive retrofit involves removing as many thermal bridges as possible, the new windows would be installed in such a way as to isolate them entirely from the surrounding stonework. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-353038 Thu, 22 Jul 2021 12:00:54 +0000 Arellcat 353038@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>We are already suffering from condensation problems on the walls, thanks to increased airtightness, so there is no way we could make the property any more airtight without adding mechanical ventilation.</em></p> <p>This isn't unexpected, to be fair. The maxim is "Build tight, ventilate right." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-353034 Thu, 22 Jul 2021 10:19:03 +0000 neddie 353034@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The sash and case windows we have have been professionally draught-proofed, and without getting a measuring instrument out, they seem pretty good to me. It's hard to see how any new sash and case unit could be better draught-proofed. Perhaps the issue is the fundemental design of sash and case?</p> <p>In any case, you cannot make a building completely airtight, unless you mechanically ventilate it as well.</p> <p>We are already suffering from condensation problems on the walls, thanks to increased airtightness, so there is no way we could make the property any more airtight without adding mechanical ventilation.</p> <p>To fit triple glazing in a traditional tenement would be over-engineering and essentially pointless, because the surrounding exterior walls are inherently cold surfaces, containing moisture (the thin layer of lathe and plaster has cold air circulating behind it, between the lathe and the stonework). All that would happen is that condensation would form on the walls instead of on the windows!</p> <p>To insulate traditional (moisture laden) exterior walls, you can't simply attach additional insulation to them, otherwise the original fabric of the building will remain damp and rot from the inside out.</p> <p>Anyway, I am only speaking from the experience of a single property, so I would love to know more about how I can insulate it to a high standard *and* ventilate it *and* preserve the existing historic fabric...</p> <p>I'm also aware there are a lot of charlatans in the building / damp / insulation / conservation industry, so it's very hard to know who to trust...</p> <p>(And don't get me started about the *Royal* Institute of Chartered Surveyors [RICS] "rising damp in every property sold" scam - which usually involves injecting snake oil into stonework and tearing off traditional lime plaster to replace with plastic sheeting &amp; gypsum plasterboard, thereby trapping moisture into the wall forever - yeuuch) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-353030 Thu, 22 Jul 2021 03:20:39 +0000 Yodhrin 353030@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@neddie The problem with sash &amp; case isn't so much the inherent R value of single glazing(although that is in fact awful, and sealing yourself off inside an artificially-lit box with shutters and huge heavy curtains that are a pain to keep clean is hardly an ideal solution), it's that it's impossible to "properly draught-proof" them.</p> <p>Insulation is important to achieving energy efficiency, but one of the biggest impacts you can have on making your home less energy intensive to heat is improving its airtightness - there's a reason that one of the most important qualifications for Passivehaus certification is 0.6 air changes per hour at 50 pascals - and you can put as much draught stripping as you like in these old sash &amp; case windows, they leak air like a sieve and always will by nature of their design. In fact old windows are one of if not the biggest impediment to achieving the ENERphit near-passive retrofit standard for these old buildings - they usually have plenty of room for insulation and air tightness measures thanks to the high ceilings, and you don't actually need a *huge* amount of additional exterior wall insulation to make thick stone walls work(the main issue with that is moisture/breathability).</p> <p>Not to mention the expense - being able to present themselves as "preservationists" allows the companies who handle trad sash &amp; case to charge premiums well beyond what the work itself entails, because they know people in Conservation Areas and Listed structures basically have no choice but to pay up.</p> <p>Being able to replace drafty old sash &amp; case with modern, properly-sealing *triple* glazed units - without any drawn out planning consent nonsense - is simply necessary if we want to keep traditional housing stock and meet climate goals. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-353024 Wed, 21 Jul 2021 14:01:40 +0000 neddie 353024@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>On traditional windows:</p> <p>Properly draught-proofed single glazed windows aren't as bad for losing heat as was once thought (over-hype by double-glazing salespeople?). Especially when combined with wooden shutters and thick "thermal" curtains.</p> <p>I'm torn on the concept of replacing traditional single glazed sash&amp;case with modern double glazed units. The hardwood used in the original windows is far far superior to any modern wood. So are we just going to chuck tonnes and tonnes of perfectly servicable hardwood into landfill, just to get marginal gains on insulation / CO2 reduction?</p> <p>Sure, if the sash or case is rotten, then it should be mandatory to replace with slimline (or conservation) double-glazing. But I don't think we'll solve climate change by throwing out perfectly good stuff and replacing with new. We have to make do with what we've got / make do with less </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-353023 Wed, 21 Jul 2021 13:55:45 +0000 neddie 353023@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think the Norman Foster steel and glass between the old RIE buildings looked quite good when it was only a single modern building in between each old one. But they spoiled it by building too much steel and glass to the West of the old buildings and now it is completely dominated by grey boxy modernity. They also spoiled it by not making it permeable from the gate on NMW and also by not providing proper bike paths and bike parking throughout the site.</p> <p>The real thing that's criminal is that they converted it into flats, instead of creating a glorious new hospital on the same site with similar new buildings.</p> <p>(Please don't tell me that new steel and glass hospital buildings would have been any more expensive to build than the flats they did build)</p> <p>The central location would have avoided the need for masses of (now controversial and overfull) parking at the new RIE. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-353021 Wed, 21 Jul 2021 13:37:30 +0000 Dave 353021@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm torn. On the one hand I think almost all modern architecture is a bit hideous, but on the other hand I don't think we should keep huge parts of our cities frozen in time (for example, having to have drafty single-glazed windows while we scrabble to phase out gas boilers and the climate implodes) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-353017 Wed, 21 Jul 2021 12:15:57 +0000 Arellcat 353017@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's known as Normalisation of Deviance, and is what led to things like the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster becoming possible, and then becoming real.</p> <p>Distinctive skylines famed for their spires and towers and chimneys, and architecture alike, suffer from death by a thousand cuts as new builds are allowed to soar inexorably, with relentless unhappy modernity crowding out the traditional or the vernacular. The elegant massing of pale brown and red sandstone of the old RIE for example is lost to angular green glass. The turd seeks to be the eastern centrepiece that the St James Centre before it was supposed to be, forgetting that the George Street plan, like the shape and form of St Andrew's House as viewed from the southwest, and the entrance to Waterloo Place, was laid out to frame and respect Calton Hill.</p> <p>Edinburgh Castle will not be enough on its own to justify WH status, just as The Three Graces, and their range of docklands: simultaneously sparkling modern marinas, anonymous eateries and derelict jetties, were not. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-353016 Wed, 21 Jul 2021 12:11:53 +0000 crowriver 353016@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>And in the Beeb...</p> <p>---</p> <p>Liverpool stripped of Unesco World Heritage status</p> <p><a href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-57879475" rel="nofollow">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-57879475</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-353011 Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:58:02 +0000 chdot 353011@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/21/unesco-strips-liverpool-waterfront-world-heritage-status" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/21/unesco-strips-liverpool-waterfront-world-heritage-status</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-352853 Tue, 13 Jul 2021 22:04:05 +0000 chdot 352853@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>Spurred to act quickly after Unesco threatened to put Venice on its endangered list unless Italy permanently banned cruise ships from docking in the world heritage site, the government said on Tuesday that vessels weighing more than 25,000 tonnes would be barred from the lagoon from 1 August. </p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/13/italy-bans-cruise-ships-from-venice-lagoon-after-unesco-threat" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/13/italy-bans-cruise-ships-from-venice-lagoon-after-unesco-threat</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-351873 Mon, 21 Jun 2021 20:21:56 +0000 chdot 351873@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/21/unesco-says-liverpool-waterfront-should-lose-heritage-status-over-skyscrapers" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/21/unesco-says-liverpool-waterfront-should-lose-heritage-status-over-skyscrapers</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-237446 Fri, 25 Nov 2016 15:13:12 +0000 chdot 237446@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>Adam Wilkinson, director of Edinburgh World Heritage, said: “We often think of inappropriate new development as the major threat to our World Heritage site – but the complacency that leads to poor building maintenance is an equal threat.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/probe-into-historic-buildings-reveals-new-threat-to-edinburgh-s-world-heritage-site-1-4300987" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/probe-into-historic-buildings-reveals-new-threat-to-edinburgh-s-world-heritage-site-1-4300987</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-235286 Wed, 02 Nov 2016 08:06:23 +0000 gembo 235286@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Cockburn Society? The front of the much criticised development at the old sailor's ark is looking good. A large handsome new archway has gone into the row of buildings.</p> <p>The side is delayed a little but if the road stays one way we will need to watch. The ventchie remains an eyesore and the waste ground of the former bus station remains waste ground.</p> <p>So probably still not great but could have been worse? The Indian restaurant still not open. The costa coffee shop mobbed. If sitting in, please go 100 yards along to baba budan. Better coffee, independent cafe/donutterie. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=4952#post-235280 Wed, 02 Nov 2016 00:00:24 +0000 Nelly 235280@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Who exactly "celebrates" WHS?</p> <p>Typical Evening News guff. </p>