http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Urban Foxes en Thu, 21 May 2026 19:04:26 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71697 Wed, 23 May 2012 10:59:32 +0000 tarmac jockey 71697@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Anth, I tried photographing the foxes this morning from the office, but the Canon Ixus 860IS proved inadequate. The foxes are located in between the Governor's House and St Andrew's House. The best reference is the rounded stone support column. I hope to bring the Canon's big brother to get a printable shot sometime soon. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71525 Tue, 22 May 2012 13:50:47 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 71525@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>Sorry, this office chat must be boring the heck out of people</em>"</p> <p>For anyone who is actually interested in where their food comes from, and cares about the wuality of what they eat, as well as the quality of life whatever they're eating had before it landed on their plate, it's actually pretty interesting... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71524 Tue, 22 May 2012 13:48:07 +0000 SRD 71524@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Stepdoh, I did wonder when I wrote "farming is wasteful" if you would come back with response. Happy to be convinced that scottish approaches are better/getting better. Still not sure about pig farms but don't have data to argue. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71486 Tue, 22 May 2012 12:11:02 +0000 Stepdoh 71486@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Accurately calculating CO2 and CO2 equivalents is impossible, particularly when you take into account woodland offsets and the CO2 required by the grass/plants. Much of it is guesswork/assumption.</p> <p>I'm afraid, despite it being low input it still costs more to produce for various reasons such as slower animal growth, variable composition and more person intensive production. It's more of an art than a science at our level. There are subsidies that keep the prices down below a realistic level though.</p> <p>You do have to put a bit of emotion into the calculator as well. Battery cages are the most cost and environmentally efficient way of producing eggs there is, but I think many are in agreement that it's not a good thing. You have to pay in both cash and efficiency if you want better welfare.</p> <p>Sorry, this office chat must be boring the heck out of people. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71473 Tue, 22 May 2012 11:58:38 +0000 chdot 71473@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You're making a good case for Scottish style meat production being more energy efficient than many other parts of the world where livestock eat things that are either of human consumption quality - or grown on land that could produce different food.</p> <p>More difficult to factor in all energy use for agricultural vehicles, processing, transport etc.</p> <p>Even more difficult (probably) to identify why 'home grown' isn't automatically cheaper than imported - or is it just simply that fossil fuels are still unreasonably cheap? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71470 Tue, 22 May 2012 11:48:22 +0000 Stepdoh 71470@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Not being argumentative, but I don't think you can make the assumption that the system is inherently wasteful.</p> <p>A lot of the research on it is extremely generalised, mainly focusing on the worst cases from the myriad of systems in the world from coos in fields, to coos in feedlots (the majority in the US, AFAIK).</p> <p>Most of the grazed land here (82%, in fact), particularly for sheep, is unsuitable for growing veggies/crops on, as it's too hilly to be combineable and too exposed. That's why we've got specific wooly breeds of coos and sheep (and you thought that was just for the tourists). </p> <p>A lot of the 'takes 1,000 litres of water to make 1kg of beef' arguments don't apply here as much of that is rain falling on the land anyway and it's not 'lost' per say and if some cases harnessed. </p> <p>There is water usage in the processing, but that's to ensure everything is kept clean and no-one is poisoned, so I'm not sure it's 'wasteage' as such, and with water metering they are all having water usage to make sure not one drop is wasted (again, for purely financial reasons). </p> <p>By our calcs, 1kg of beef produced by an upland suckler system requires an intake of 0.9kg of people suitable protein (a lot of the time it's actually whiskey leftovers, smells DIVINE) + plus a big load of grass.</p> <p>We're working on the burping, mainly looking at natural feed supplements that would make them a bit less burpy and help make feed conversion to meat more efficient. GHG emissions are down 12% from 1990 at the moment. </p> <p>Sorry, still on the meaty payroll, so I'm compelled to robustly defend. :) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71451 Tue, 22 May 2012 11:24:41 +0000 SRD 71451@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Stepdoh" you would be amazed how un-wasteful the whole meat process is." very glad to hear it! good to know that regulation works. and also good to know it is unwasteful in principle (well, except that much of the farming itself is inherently wasteful, plus worries about methane). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71435 Tue, 22 May 2012 11:07:26 +0000 Stepdoh 71435@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>PS Anth. Fur farming is AWFUL. Mainly as it's done in regions with bugger all regulation.</p> <p>Did a search on the internet. Wouldn't suggest anyone did likewise, wish I had an 'unsee' button. And I would suggest I'm fairly tempered to that kind of thing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71433 Tue, 22 May 2012 11:04:21 +0000 Stepdoh 71433@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Glad I can be your conscience Anth :). Sorry SRD, was one of the few topics I've got the information at hand. Won't go into details, but you would be amazed how un-wasteful the whole meat process is.</p> <p>This is for mainly financial reasons. Everything that gets 'thrown away' at an abattoir has to be paid for, so the financial incentive is to make a product out of every bit you can. Even if you can sell something for a couple of pennies a kilo, or even give it away it's still a net positive as you're not paying for disposal.</p> <p>This is particularly applicable for pigs. The 'everything but the oink' thing is pretty much true. (Look on the back of a packet of percy pigs next time you are in M&amp;S and you'll see why they're not halal). If anyone is particularly interested, there is a very detailed report <a href="http://www.qmscotland.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=294&amp;Itemid=142">here</a>, including a chapter on Tripe. Yummy.</p> <p>Now can we get back to the cute fox pictures. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71360 Mon, 21 May 2012 17:05:41 +0000 SRD 71360@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Sorry Stepdoh, I guess I was wondering about the logistics. Does all cattle hide farmed in UK do to leather/other by-products? hadn't really thought about it ('valuable tasty stuff in the middle'). makes sense to me. Seal's not all tha nice to eat, but okay once in a while. They're just a heck of a lot cuter than the cod, which, while tasty, isn't much use for keeping you warm. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71355 Mon, 21 May 2012 16:46:57 +0000 Stepdoh 71355@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I could honestly say that I can't see a way that farming cattle for leather would make any sense, hides are not a valuable enough substance, and there's all that valuable tasty stuff in the middle.</p> <p>For a while has been the same (until recently) for sheepskin. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71352 Mon, 21 May 2012 16:43:22 +0000 Stepdoh 71352@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>*note to self*</p> <p>Politely decline if SRD ever suggests going clubbing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71351 Mon, 21 May 2012 16:42:03 +0000 SRD 71351@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>is leather entirely/mainly a byproduct of food industry? </p> <p>if so, then good points, but wasn't aware of any clear connection, except perhaps in the Horn, where Italy certainly used to export hides for use in shoe trade. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71348 Mon, 21 May 2012 16:38:38 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 71348@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>You mean you don't want to shoot a tigerskinrug anymore??</em>"</p> <p>More that I had started pondering whether fur farming was really all that bad, and if it was hypocritical for a meat eater (as I am) to dislike animal fur used for clothing (as I do) but find it fine to wear leather shoes (as I also do).</p> <p>It had put me into a bit of a quandary. Stepdoh's summary cleared up what I was trying to get to. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71344 Mon, 21 May 2012 16:35:58 +0000 SRD 71344@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Only fur I wear at present - other than sheepskin - is on hood of my c. 1950s Grenfell parka from Labrador. (there's a bunch in the national museum if you're curious). </p> <p>But I would happily wear sealskin mittens if I could get them. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71343 Mon, 21 May 2012 16:33:14 +0000 chdot 71343@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"great for getting your views on something tweaked"</p> <p>You mean you don't want to shoot a tigerskinrug anymore?? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71341 Mon, 21 May 2012 16:28:54 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 71341@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This blinkin' forum is great for getting your views on something tweaked. Stepdoh, thanks for that. :) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160&page=2#post-71334 Mon, 21 May 2012 15:50:29 +0000 Stepdoh 71334@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Hmm. </p> <p>Not sure about commercially farmed fur, think technology has moved us on from the need to farm animals purely for their hides, and even then it is such a premium product that it's not <em> really </em>just to keep people warm these days, more of a conspicuous consumption.</p> <p>Leather I would class differently, as it is very much a by-product of the dairy/meat industry. </p> <p>Byproduct fur (say they used possum fur for stuff a lot in NZ, as it's an insidious pest, but then again it's caught from the wild)is okay, but IMO Fur for Fur's sake is a bit grim. Fox fur stoles are possibly the grossest thing since tiger skin rugs.</p> <p>But we wouldn't have the "Wear the fox hat" joke without it.</p> <p>(and yes, I'm aware my job means this smacks of a slight double standard) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160#post-71291 Mon, 21 May 2012 12:21:22 +0000 SRD 71291@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Since I eat meat, I have no problem with wearing fur. I wear leather after all. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160#post-71289 Mon, 21 May 2012 12:10:43 +0000 Roibeard 71289@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@SRD - I don't fancy mouse (probably not much eating on them), yet I'm happy to kill them in the house.</p> <p>Eating culled animals only works with some species (rabbit, deer).</p> <p>How about making sure the culled foxes don't go to waste by using the fur?</p> <p>(where's the <em>very</em> wicked grin smiley?)</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160#post-71285 Mon, 21 May 2012 11:49:10 +0000 chdot 71285@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm sure, in terms of numbers, 'pet' dogs do more harm than foxes - hard to know about 'rogue' percentages though. </p> <p>Some people hate seagulls - especially if they nest on their roofs or aggressively steal their chips. </p> <p>I really like them gliding past my window and dancing in loose formation. </p> <p>But the whole wild/tame wild/neat thing is always interesting in urban/rural ways. </p> <p>For some people Princes Street Gardens or The Meadows is about as much 'country' as they can handle!</p> <p>I'd like to see a bit less uniformly mown grass, but wish CEC would put a bit more money into (for instance) Saughton Gardens. </p> <p>Also the Council has owned most of the Redhall Estate for almost a century. It could never be returned to what it had been in previous centuries - planned parkland for the benefit of its owners - but a bit less neglect might be beneficial for humans and wildlife. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160#post-71283 Mon, 21 May 2012 11:27:00 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 71283@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>And I'm not sure I did actually say that people <em>should</em> encourage foxes into their gardens either! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160#post-71282 Mon, 21 May 2012 11:25:49 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 71282@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Erm. Yes. I basically agreed with you...</p> <p>When I said, "<em>people do encourage foxes too much, without really thinking about the fact that they are wild animals</em>" and "<em>don't ever think that they're 'tame'</em>"...</p> <p>The blue tit example was simply an example of us, as humans, skewing nature in the cities. But that people shouldn't treat foxes like they treat blue tits. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160#post-71281 Mon, 21 May 2012 11:20:11 +0000 chdot 71281@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Think Min might have a point... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160#post-71280 Mon, 21 May 2012 11:17:38 +0000 Min 71280@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I am not sure that blue tits can really be compared to foxes. I love eagles and want to help them but I wouldn't encourage them in to my garden! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160#post-71279 Mon, 21 May 2012 11:06:04 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 71279@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>... walks into their house and bites their baby's head off... </em>"</p> <p>Allegedly. Still think there was something odd about that case. Especially the length of time before it came out, quietly, that they have a family dog that had bitten someone in the past...</p> <p>But yes, people do encourage foxes too much, without really thinking about the fact that they <em>are</em> wild animals. That said, I've also got bird feeders in the garden, and blue tits nesting in a bird box I put up, which is essentially the same thing - helping out 'wild' nature in the city thereby skewing nature's balance (which we also do by building cities and countless other actions), so I'm not averse to helping out the foxes now and again - but don't ever think that they're 'tame'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160#post-71276 Mon, 21 May 2012 10:55:58 +0000 Min 71276@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think urban foxes have almost the opposite problem of country foxes. People think they are fluffy and cute and do everything they can to feed and encourage them. Then they get all shocked when the fox walks into their house and bites their baby's head off and start demanding that they be killed. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160#post-71272 Mon, 21 May 2012 10:47:24 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 71272@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I know a couple of people who work there, any hints on the location? One of them certainly would be really interested to see them! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160#post-71271 Mon, 21 May 2012 10:45:41 +0000 tarmac jockey 71271@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I have just been made aware of a skulk of foxes behind St Andrew's House. I was able to see them this morning from my desk but I was without camera. I hope to photgraph them over the next couple of days. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5160#post-71263 Mon, 21 May 2012 09:53:44 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 71263@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That's certainly another aspect SRD.</p> <p>Like grouse shooting, fine if you're going to eat the bird after - if you're killing it for the sake of something to shoot only then please go clay pigeon shooting (and don't bleat on about it being the 'hunt', grouse shooting, with the little gun stations and beaters stirring up the birds into your path is just as contrived as shouting 'pull').</p> <p>At least until it's shot that grouse has had the chance to live a wild and free life. </p>