http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Engaging with the enemy en Wed, 13 May 2026 03:45:32 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322&page=2#post-57794 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:41:55 +0000 ruggtomcat 57794@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@darkerside thanks! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322&page=2#post-57750 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 11:28:07 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 57750@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>No that's not a bad idea. Positive reinforcement and all that jazz. Every 'congratulation' I've ever sent has been graciously replied to, and I'd hope they filter the message down to the driver involved and make them more likely to do the same again. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322&page=2#post-57745 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 11:23:21 +0000 Darkerside 57745@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Umm, yes?</p> <p>As we also have a Good Drivers thread, there might be benefit to having a (much simpler) way to report good drivers, particularly from companies or taxis? I could see being able to send something along the lines of 'Thanks - your drivers were commended for their considerate driving 6 times in February' to someone's PR wing might be more effective than repeated slaps on the wrist.</p> <p>Possibly overthinking this </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322&page=2#post-57678 Tue, 21 Feb 2012 22:37:38 +0000 ruggtomcat 57678@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Can I request 'apparently male' instead of male please? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322&page=2#post-57674 Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:59:40 +0000 Darkerside 57674@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Slightly later than advertised, a form updated with your feedback is now <a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dGtya1ExdG45ZFlOS0s4WkphcTB4cEE6MQ">here</a>. Changelog:<br /> <ul><li>Opening paragraph tidied, in particular with regards to liability and a bit better spacing</li><li>Minor wording changes throughout, in line with your comments</li><li>Adjusted the options within the final yes/no block. Feedback please on whether the 'was the cyclist male' question is appropriately phrased. I think the sex of the cyclist could be interesting given Ian Walker's research, but didn't really want to put in a separate drop down box as it then makes it appear too important/makes the form longer. Effectively if you scan over the question without it standing out as odd, all's well</li><li>Closing paragraph added, with links to the forum and CTC and LFGSS 'what to do in case of an accident' threads.</li><li>I've also included my google 'cycling stuff' email for any technical queries or form feedback. If this detracts from the community endeavour feel of the form I'm open to alternatives!</li><br /> </ul></p> <p>Will post a 'possible next steps' after I've wolfed down some curry! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322&page=2#post-57187 Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:39:04 +0000 ExcitableBoy 57187@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Had somebody deliberately drive their car at me on the way home this morning!<br /> After coming down the Royal mile and past Parliament, I was overtaken very closely and at speed by a blue car as I went around the bend near the gates to the Palace. I shouted "oi!", then I caught up with the car as it sat in the right-hand lane at the mini-roundabout, to go west/South around the park. As I passed on his left (I was heading towards Meadowbank), I looked at him and signaled with my hand the closeness of his pass. He threw his hand up and mouthed something. Then, he turned his car and drove half way into the left lane, directly at me, before giving up and carrying on around the roundabout.<br /> Close passing and hand gestures are almost par for the course, but deliberately being driven at is something else.<br /> So, I took a note of his registation number and reported the incident to the police in Portobello, who say they will have a word with him about his driving. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322&page=2#post-57137 Fri, 17 Feb 2012 11:30:44 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 57137@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Saw that on Facebook last night Baldie - not good. Though the bottom shaped dent is a good advert for cycling giving you <em>buns of steel</em>. ;) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322&page=2#post-57127 Fri, 17 Feb 2012 11:10:45 +0000 Cyclingmollie 57127@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It seems to me that we could benefit from the support, advice and training that can be provided by equalities and non-violent direct action experts. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322&page=2#post-57122 Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:59:14 +0000 Baldcyclist 57122@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I tried directly engaging with the enemy on the way home last night. I can report that they won, my bike is broken, and I'm cut to shreds!</p> <p>[EDIT]Although I did leave a rather large bottom shaped dent in the wing of their car, so it wasn't a complete loss. ;) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322&page=2#post-57116 Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:31:38 +0000 Darkerside 57116@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>On liability I meant 'don't incriminate yourself in what you submit, unless you're happy for that information to be in the public domain'. Will ensure final wording is clear. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322&page=2#post-57113 Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:29:44 +0000 Darkerside 57113@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>On the damaging data front, yes, it's a risk. I'm not sure what correlation the cyclist's clothing will have to anything, which is why I put it in there. I'd be really interested to find out, for example, whether cyclists without helmets suffer more honking of horns but less close passes. Self-selecting sample and all, but who knows?</p> <p>What I will read up on over the weekend is whether it's possible to exert an element of control over the conclusions drawn. A clause like 'any person or organisation can request access to this data. However, if obviously incorrect conclusions are quoted as fact by twisting the data, they must be acknowledged as wrong and withdrawn'. My main concern on that front is someone saying 'there were only 5 cases of left hooks in Edinburgh last month', failing to acknowledge that the data would only capture a subset of those that were actually reported. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322&page=2#post-57109 Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:06:31 +0000 Dave 57109@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Promising, but I think there's too much on there (even though it's optional), some of which will inevitably be damaging - the EEN could run a feature about reckless cyclists putting themselves in harm's way as 2/3rds did not wear hiviz, for instance, even though that's not relevant to an allegation of dangerous driving, or cruddy roads, or whatever.</p> <p>I would cull the whole last section.</p> <p>The bit at the top about liability is odd too. All of the options are an allegation of wrongdoing and liability on behalf of the third party. There is no non-liable way to fail to give way, for example? Maybe I'm not understanding the text. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322&page=2#post-57096 Fri, 17 Feb 2012 00:10:05 +0000 gembo 57096@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Darkerside excellent. I hope CCE can host. Left hook where overtaken and vehicle now in front immediately turns left. too obvious to need explanation, just a thought. Would love button for White Van. As although sample will be biased it would at least provide data. My money being on the white van factor being no more prominent than the BMW factor. Ah BMW would need a button too. :-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322&page=2#post-57093 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 23:26:50 +0000 Darkerside 57093@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Take ten points whoever submitted:</p> <p><em>Driver was a young woman with an Australian accent, sunglasses (it was cloudy) and the entire contents of the Boots make-up department on her face.</em></p> <p>Had a good chuckle. Anyway, thanks for positive feedback. I'll give it until Saturday afternoon for anyone else to give suggestions, then update appropriately for a final revision before a definite 'do we want to go ahead with this' decision. chdot - is this something citycyclingedinburgh would be interested in parenting, or would you rather it remained something neutral? Poll? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-57088 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 23:10:09 +0000 Min 57088@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It looks pretty good to me. You are right to try and keep it as simple and easy to fill out as possible.</p> <p>Perhaps "poor weather" for the last set of options since lashing rain could be a factor but is not the same as "wet road". Or maybe just an "other" with a box to enter any factors you thought might have played a part. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-57077 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 22:22:45 +0000 wingpig 57077@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Perhaps "cobbled" option for the road surface...<br /> Excellent work. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-57076 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 22:20:08 +0000 wingpig 57076@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The exactly-when could be relevant if there's any escalation and the question of accessing nearby local CCTV is raised... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-57070 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 21:58:49 +0000 Darkerside 57070@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You should hopefully all be able to access <a href="https://docs.google.com/a/darkerside.org/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dGtya1ExdG45ZFlOS0s4WkphcTB4cEE6MQ#gid=0">this form</a>. Shout if not!</p> <p>That's an example of how it could be done via a google form. I've added what questions I would use, but clearly they could be changed. Few key bits:<br /> <ul><li> Anonymous seems best to me for this. Similarly I haven't included a date option (although the submission of the form is timestamped). Partly as the form doesn't have a date picker (grumble...) and also because I think it's the incident detail we're more interested in.</li><li> Sharing morningsider's concern that as soon as it becomes hard work to complete people don't bother, I've included a compulsory multiple choice bit that takes about 20 seconds, then an optional, free text 'more details' part. This approach has generally worked ok for me in the past</li><li> Feel free to submit made up information whilst playing - if we want to go forward with this the I can blitz it beforehand</li><li> The link is hardly snappy - there's an 'embed in webpage' option which I haven't played with before, plus tinyurl, QR codes, etc.</li><li> You won't be able to see any of the automatic graphical analysis until there's some dummy data in, but the submissions are compiled <a href="https://docs.google.com/a/darkerside.org/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjkmyVqViJfvdGtya1ExdG45ZFlOS0s4WkphcTB4cEE#gid=0">here</a></li><li> One of the key benefits in my mind is being able to complete it fairly easily on a touchscreen smartphone (either via the googledocs app, or straight through the web address)</li><br /> </ul></p> <p>Thoughts? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-57060 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 20:33:31 +0000 Nelly 57060@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Morningsider - that has always been my dream, to get the non-cyclists of the press to try it for a while, even one morning.</p> <p>Would be great if they sent one of their pup reporters out for a week as a cyclist - however, we assume that they dont have any commuters already which may be off the mark.</p> <p>Either way, maybe worth asking the question - stepdoh ? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-57056 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 20:05:10 +0000 chdot 57056@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Kaya Burgess (Times) (@kayaburgess)<br /> 2/16/12 5:49 PM<br /> During #cyclesafe, the vitriol drivers have displayed towards cyclists has been astonishing. And can lead to this - <a href="http://bbc.in/A94sLR" rel="nofollow">http://bbc.in/A94sLR</a></p> <p>"</p> <p>(link to bus driver story <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5326)" rel="nofollow">http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5326)</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-57051 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:35:53 +0000 Morningsider 57051@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A very interesting thread - however, some of the ideas seem a tad labour intensive. How about inviting the editor of the EEN and/or some of the more vocal commentators to cycle commute in Edinburgh - possibly accompanied by one of us. Would create some good copy, not too much effort and may even change a few minds. For balance, we could then accompany the commentators on their daily car commute - comedy gold I reckon.</p> <p>Obviously, I can't actually see any of the EEN commentators agreeing to this as it may expose their legendary driving skills to some criticism, let slip a lifetime's resentment that their dad never taught them to ride a bike and give us the opportunity to seduce their spouses. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-57047 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 17:14:12 +0000 Min 57047@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I'll mock something up this evening as a demo - will fuel debate if nothing else!"</p> <p>Good idea, thank you. The only way to find out if something is going to work is to try it! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-57025 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 15:11:51 +0000 cc 57025@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ultimately the only way to remove this trouble is to redesign the roads so that bikes and motor vehicles never come into conflict in the first place - as <a href="http://hembrow.blogspot.com/search/label/conflict">David Hembrow says</a>. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-57005 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:42:56 +0000 wingpig 57005@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote><em>"It will be interesting to see if new editor likes Edinburgh or 'smooth traffic flow'..."</em></blockquote></p> <p>Maybe depends how they travel to and from work. I've often wondered if the Scotsman's attitude to travel and transport changed when the office moved away from the bus-route-tastic North Bridge... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-57001 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:35:11 +0000 chdot 57001@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I'll mock something up this evening as a demo - will fuel debate if nothing else!"</p> <p>Good. </p> <p>"We could always try and get some coverage of it in the EEN"</p> <p>Yes, plenty of possibilities. </p> <p>It will be interesting to see if new editor likes Edinburgh or 'smooth traffic flow'... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-56998 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:30:37 +0000 wingpig 56998@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Not just for cyclists: it's often possible to observe cyclists being bullied whilst being a pedestrian and it'd be much easier to whip out a smartphone and record an event whilst standing on the pavement.<br /> Stickers with QR codes on street-furniture-posts? Wee bits of paper with QR codes tucked into the gap between brake cable and top tube? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-56996 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:25:49 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 56996@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>We could always try and get some coverage of it in the EEN as a 'tool for cyclists'. ;) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-56995 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:20:13 +0000 Darkerside 56995@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Don't see how you can get around that. It will always be a self-selecting sample of cyclists, regardless of the recording mechanism.</p> <p>So long as you're careful with the analysis, this doesn't necessarily cause too much of a problem. Clearly you couldn't say 'there were x incidents involving cycles in Edinburgh in the past y months', but you could say 'of incidents recorded, x% involved an artic' or 'vehicle registration ED12 345 was reported by 4 different people being a prat'. </p> <p>I'll mock something up this evening as a demo - will fuel debate if nothing else! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-56994 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:07:16 +0000 chdot 56994@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I would imagine that the vast majority of reports would be from people who read this thread anyway"</p> <p>That's what 'worries' me - small sample of small sample...</p> <p>Some people have/notice quite a lot of incidents, most don't seem to - or they are just 'normal/trivial'.</p> <p>Some incidents get reported elsewhere -</p> <p><a href="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wife-vs-white-van-man" rel="nofollow">http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wife-vs-white-van-man</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5322#post-56991 Thu, 16 Feb 2012 13:55:14 +0000 Darkerside 56991@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>chdot, accept your concerns, but I would imagine that the vast majority of reports would be from people who read this thread anyway, so a new link (tinyurl.com/report or something) shouldn't present too much of an issue, and would avoid threads dropping off the homepage etc. It's also a right pain trying to collate any information from a forum (even lfgss's Rider Down threads are a drudge to analyse, and they're on a thread-by-thread basis in a fairly fixed format). You'd have to have some kind of standard template to copy paste, which is tricky to do unless you're at a desk, and the collator would presumably attempt to then draw those comments into a spreadsheet anyway. Cut out the middle man, straight from horses mouth, etc.</p> <p>That being said, I am Glasgow-based and therefore less likely than most here to submit anything to an Edinburgh incident list, so I wouldn't want to suggest a system that only I would find sensible! </p>