http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: 'potential cyclists discouraged by aspects of cycling culture in Scotland' en Sun, 31 May 2026 06:41:02 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559&page=2#post-4736 Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:24:44 +0000 Colin 4736@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Can I point out that the only official Edinburgh Road Club run on a Saturday morning leaves at 09:50. This is a guided run to develop the group riding skills of relative novices. </p> <p>Many other groups of riders from many clubs and many individuals also depart at various times prior to this run. </p> <p>ERC take road safety very seriously, and encourage all of our members to ride in a responsible and considerate manner. Last Saturday morning, a very large group of ERC riders were elsewhere having their photo taken for a national cycling magazine. We are a freindly and supportive club, and encourage riders of all ages and abilities to fulfil their potential. We also organise a large number of competitive events, including some fantastic closed circuit road racing at the Royal Highland Showground, Ingliston. This race series commences on April 8th with the first race for women, youths and juniors at 18:30, followed by the senior event at 19:00. Why not come along and spectate, or even have a go? Details on the ERC website.</p> <p>Cheers<br /> Colin </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559&page=2#post-4711 Tue, 30 Mar 2010 20:16:52 +0000 Kim 4711@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>LOL </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559&page=2#post-4706 Tue, 30 Mar 2010 20:12:48 +0000 gembo 4706@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I feel compelled now to defend the guy who called me an a-hole (well if he hadn't run into the person in front). Even on hybrid bikes you can go for lightest frame possible and skinniest tyres. I was on an old tank with 2 inch tyres, probably eating my tea as I went along, and from his perspective not getting out of his way at places he felt were suitable passing spots. If only he hadn't bumped into the person ahead I would have convinced myself there that it was my fault.</p> <p>More than 2 sides to every story (maybe the person he ran into wasn't looking). This was many years ago and if I sense someone is in a very big hurry I pull in to let them past (then chase after them and sit on their back wheel- very childish). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559&page=2#post-4701 Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:28:08 +0000 PS 4701@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I almost always avoid off-road cycle paths when I'm out on my road bike for a couple of reasons:<br /> 1) It's quicker on the road - you can keep up with the traffic in the city centre until the traffic lights and junctions start to thin out and you don't have to worry so much about walkers, dogs, other cyclists.<br /> 2) It is not safe to go 20mph plus on off-raid paths when there are other users around. Road bikes are designed for speed and having to slow down for foot-traffic etc makes things a bit shaky.</p> <p>oh, and 3) It's just plain rude. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559&page=2#post-4700 Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:39:40 +0000 Smudge 4700@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Random QI point: The original "Hells Angels" were American Air Force, after the war when they took up motorcycling and racing choppers* they kept the old squadron name for their bike club.</p> <p>*Further QI point(!): A "chopper" originally was a motorcycle where all excess weight (eg mudguards, front brake, passenger seat, lights etc etc) was removed to make it go faster, think couriers singlespeed but with an engine ;-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559&page=2#post-4698 Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:34:20 +0000 recombodna 4698@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Those black label guys are full of sh17. Honestly wot a bunch of up themselves hipster w@nks. "yeah like dude we own this underground bike culture it comes from the gutter and in no way is a direct copy of sonny barger and the hells angels without motorcycles. we're hard and will take down any mothers that stand in our way AND we got each others backs dude!!!' </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559&page=2#post-4653 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 22:45:03 +0000 Kim 4653@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The problem with the rat race is that even if you win you are still a rat. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559&page=2#post-4651 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 22:04:38 +0000 Cyclingmollie 4651@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Gembo I think it's clear who the a-hole was. There's a circle of hell waiting for people like that - I think it probably looks like this:</p> <p><blockquote>More info! - <a href="http://bicyclefilmfestival.wordpress.com/films/bike-warriors-the-bike-race" rel="nofollow">http://bicyclefilmfestival.wordpress.com/films/bike-warriors-the-bike-race</a></blockquote> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4640 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 19:36:31 +0000 gembo 4640@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I once pulled a guy up on the stretch of mud between dean village and the modern art gallery, he wanted past me and he wanted me out of the way as quickly as possible, i let him past when I thought there was space, he then bumped into someone coming the other way and I went past them both as they tried to extricate themselves and I pointed out that a bell, although an additional weight is useful in alerting other users that you are coming. We then had words underneath the Belford Road Bridge - he suggested I was an a-hole and I pointed out that if he hurried he might still shave a hundredth of a second off his personal best. Obviously this is very much my side of the story. The conclusion is that such antics are best left for the road and gentle off road dog walking tracks should be left to those who like to take in the view as they cycle - it is possible to be both types of cyclist, just not take the road or mountain bike culture onto the walkway. The reverse seems to have happened in Melbourne - a pathway has been grafted onto the road but the road mores have prevailed in a burst of testosterone. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4639 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 19:28:29 +0000 Cyclingmollie 4639@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote>As a result the actual separate cycle-ways are a 'bun-fight' and surprisingly intimidating. </blockquote><br /> That's awful. Why would idiots use a cycle-path as a race track? I've personally never seen that on a cycle path in Edinburgh.<br /> Putting the primary focus of responsibility on the primary source of danger is fine until pavement cycling (or cycle-path racing) enters the equation then all bets are off. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4623 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:26:04 +0000 Kim 4623@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Aye she is referring to:</p> <p>"the cycling culture is well and truly entrenched...but it's not an inclusive one, and was evidently hi-jacked by the 'Sport of Cycling' long ago.</p> <p>As a result the actual separate cycle-ways are a 'bun-fight' and surprisingly intimidating. They look like they have been designed:</p> <p>(a) as exclusive outdoor velodromes, admittedly somewhat linear minus the steeply banked tracks &amp; bends, and</p> <p>(b) purely for elite cyclists</p> <p>Speed is definitely of the essence (as is lycra), and this makes sharing the pathway with other pathway users tense." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4609 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:00:44 +0000 chdot 4609@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From Kim's link</p> <p>"Oh! and back to Melbourne, all 'merit' points earned for 'fabulous cycling infrastructure' are completely deleted for hosting 'hideous 2010 Formula 1 Australian Grand Prix' - when is the global community going to ban this destructive event?" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4608 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:51:37 +0000 Kim 4608@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>We all (on this forum at least) want to see a cycling culture in Scotland, it is just a question of how to get there. The behaviour of recognised groups could go some way to helping, if they behave 'responsibly'. There is absolutely one need to jump red lights, ride down the pavement and cut across traffic, it just puts peoples backs up.</p> <p>Yes we need to move away from the car culture, but putting peoples backs up, isn't the way to do it.</p> <p>As for insurance cover, the last time I looked at my home contents insurance policy 3rd party cover is included, along with cover for my bike outside the home so long as I lock it up when I park it. Strict liability, is a great idea, people should take responsibility for their actions, and not blame the victim.</p> <p>Just to change the tune a wee bit, here is an <a href="http://freedomcyclist.blogspot.com/2010/03/cycling-infrastructure-its-attendant.html">Australian perspective</a> to throw into the mix. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4607 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:33:26 +0000 Cyclingmollie 4607@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm in favour of the strict liability law. My brother who lives in Germany explained the German version of it to me. He thought it made drivers take more care. But in his town they have a fantastic network of cycle paths and the cyclists I saw were very much in the Copenhagen mould. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4603 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:07:20 +0000 chdot 4603@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"ERC wants to instil a safety-culture both in our member and in those we ride alongside. We remind cyclists that they have rights and responsibilities as legitimate road users."</p> <p>From <a href="http://www.edinburghrc.co.uk/Safety" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghrc.co.uk/Safety</a></p> <p>Not wishing to excuse ERC members, but as Cyclingmollie says -</p> <p>"I grew to realise that the "safety in numbers" effect I was looking for was illusory. Large groups get cut up just the same as individuals."</p> <p>Problem primarily relates to 'car culture'.</p> <p>There's no easy answer to address that.</p> <p>More cyclists - behaving 'responsibly' - (legally too) with perhaps some new laws that tip the balance a bit -</p> <p>"We do not currently have a cycling culture in Scotland, but we do aspire to become a cycling nation and will look towards our northern European neighbours in Denmark, for example, as exemplars. Copenhagen enjoys a 36% modal share for bikes and wants to increase this to 50% by 2015. There are many reasons for this high level of cycle use in Copenhagen, principally the provision of over 300kms of segregated cycle track, cycle integration with public transport and <em><a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=316#post-2413">strict liability</a> on the vehicle driver in the event of an accident</em>. Some home contents insurance policies cover the theft of bikes, where this has been included. Should, for example, insurance cover, where negotiated, include claims against a cyclist in the event of an accident where the cyclist is deemed to be at fault?"</p> <p>(edited with my italics and link)</p> <p><a href="http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2009/05/28093408/6" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2009/05/28093408/6</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4600 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:55:47 +0000 Cyclingmollie 4600@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Kim <blockquote>Having seen the Reds Shirts (well they behaving like a group of cycle fascists) of the ERC set off from the Commie yesterday I am not surprised. </blockquote><br /> If this scene was in Belgium bystanders would be picking out their favourite local cycling heroes. In a Saturday morning ERC gathering you might spot Alex Coutts or Evan Opiphant both professionals, several ex East of Scotland champions and at least a couple of the bike shop mechanics we all rely on. ERC are aware of the problems caused by their own success and have <a href="http://www.edinburghrc.co.uk/Safety">tried to address it</a>. In order to get out of that area they use the pelican crossing to make a safe crossing to Salisbury Road. The Commie pool was chosen as a replacement for the original gathering point in Argyle Place because of the pressure of numbers and because there are toilets. I don't ride in the Saturday morning groups any more because I grew to realise that the "safety in numbers" effect I was looking for was illusory. Large groups get cut up just the same as individuals. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4592 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:42:47 +0000 chdot 4592@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.edinburghrc.co.uk/contact-us" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghrc.co.uk/contact-us</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4590 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:29:31 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 4590@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I passed the gathering of ERC riders outside the Commie on my way to the farmers market on Saturday and it was remarkably large. Most blowing the red lights to join the throng... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4587 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:26:46 +0000 Claggy Cog 4587@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Now, they are scary, the Black Label cyclists, Embra drivers and the rest of the populace would have no idea of what had hit them!! The rest of the society of cyclists would seem normal and quite nice actually....and they would perhaps stop griping about us, and what we wear, yeah!! What a tribe, extreme. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4584 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:14:14 +0000 LaidBack 4584@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>ERC set off from the Commie yesterday I am not surprised. Jumping red lights, riding down the pavements then straight across in front of other traffic,</em></p> <p>ERC have more members than any other cycling group in Edinburgh. Also have more woman on bikes than average club.</p> <p>Think Colin on this forum is ERC? Or do we have someone else to get an answer from? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4569 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:04:34 +0000 chdot 4569@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>We're in a parallel universe here</p> <p><a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=566&amp;replies=20#post-4566" rel="nofollow">http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=566&amp;replies=20#post-4566</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4565 Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:50:36 +0000 Dave 4565@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"None of us would tolerate that sort of behaviour from drivers!"</em></p> <p>Um... where do you ride? You can spend ten minutes in the city centre and see no end of outrageous driving any day you please. :)</p> <p>The difference is that, for some reason, we (both as a society and as individuals) expect higher standards from people on bikes, than we do of the same people in cars. </p> <p>This comment is a good example. I'd bet good money that many road rules were broken by people driving to the ERC club ride with their bike in the back. But that's "just the way it is", yet precisely the same people on their bikes, get a confiscation rant *from other cyclists*. If I was driving around the Commonwealth pool at the weekend, picture me saying that they should have their cars confiscated? Just as valid, but laughable.</p> <p>I've always felt it would be a big step forward if, as a whole, cyclists stopped trying to take responsibility for the behaviour of all other cyclists. I don't feel responsible for other pedestrians, or other drivers.</p> <p>This isn't intended to be a justification for bad cycling, of course. Just an observation that until we address bad driving and bad perambulating, there's not much point trying to "fix" bad cycling. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4556 Sun, 28 Mar 2010 20:28:21 +0000 chdot 4556@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"it would be nice to have a brief description of the tribes &amp; sub-groups of the cycling culture."</p> <p>New thread?</p> <p>Here's one tribe to be going on with - (PG trailer)</p> <p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-72Hx2-e0U" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-72Hx2-e0U</a></p> <p><center>.</center></p> <p>More info! - <a href="http://bicyclefilmfestival.wordpress.com/films/bike-warriors-the-bike-race" rel="nofollow">http://bicyclefilmfestival.wordpress.com/films/bike-warriors-the-bike-race</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4553 Sun, 28 Mar 2010 20:05:53 +0000 LaidBack 4553@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><strong>chdot</strong> <em>&lt;&lt;"They should confiscate all the bikes from the existing 'hard core' cyclists in Edinburgh"<br /> This include you? &gt;&gt;</em></p> <p>I'd accept compensation for loss of business assets. </p> <p><strong>kim</strong> <em>"Having seen ... the ERC set off from the Commie yesterday I am not surprised. Jumping red lights, riding down the pavements then straight across in front of other traffic,"</em></p> <p>At least one is a cycle trainer. Maybe he wasn't there to keep order? Sounds bad though. </p> <p><strong>Min</strong> <em>"SHHHH! Today's forum post could end up being tomorrows policy.. :-o "</em></p> <p>Anth has already looked into the future with <strong>Uneasy Riders</strong> in CityCycling. This is one where all cyclists are banned. Not just fixie riders! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4551 Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:41:36 +0000 Min 4551@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"This would be a cycling offset scheme. Those with BMWs could continue to drive to work but sponsor a cyclist - lowering their pollution rating. "</p> <p>SHHHH! Today's forum post could end up being tomorrows policy.. :-o </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4550 Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:20:15 +0000 SRD 4550@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Actually, it would be nice to have a brief description of the tribes &amp; sub-groups of the cycling culture. I too am pretty ignorant - obviously some of the clubs are pretty genteel (judging by my neighbours' 50+ years membership), while others less so? And that Spokes is not beloved of all? (well, Kim's description at least suggests a big divide on practice, if not policy). Anyone up to giving us newbies a brief run-down? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4549 Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:12:26 +0000 Smudge 4549@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>ERC?<br /> (Not up to speed on many aspects of cycling, sorry!)</p> <p>Ahh, found it on google, Edinburgh Road Club? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4548 Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:38:15 +0000 Kim 4548@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There is the persistent problem that people like cycling but don't like cyclist. Cyclist are seen as an out group, something <em>other</em>, and not as ordinary people on bikes. Having seen the Reds Shirts (well they behaving like a group of cycle fascists) of the ERC set off from the Commie yesterday I am not surprised. Jumping red lights, riding down the pavements then straight across in front of other traffic, just general bad manors. It really <em>does</em> give the rest of us a bad name! We are all tarred with the same brush and it is one of the reasons ordinary people think that cycling is not for them. If anyone here know any the Red Shirts, we remind them that the highway code applies to them as well. None of us would tolerate that sort of behaviour from drivers! This lot should have their bicycles confiscated. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4545 Sun, 28 Mar 2010 17:22:24 +0000 chdot 4545@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"They should confiscate all the bikes from the existing 'hard core' cyclists in Edinburgh"</p> <p>This include you? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=559#post-4542 Sun, 28 Mar 2010 17:05:04 +0000 LaidBack 4542@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Blame the fact that not enough people are cycling on the people who are already cycling. It's foolproof. Saves actually doing anything about it. </em></p> <p>:-)</p> <p>Yes... you've summed it up nicely.<br /> If only there were more ordinary people cycling.<br /> They should confiscate all the bikes from the existing 'hard core' cyclists in Edinburgh and start again.</p> <p>I did have this strange idea where a 'hard core' would be paid to cycle on behalf of the sedentary majority. </p> <p>This would be a <strong>cycling offset</strong> scheme. Those with BMWs could continue to drive to work but sponsor a cyclist - lowering their pollution rating. </p>