http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Brother can you spare a paradigm? en Sun, 31 May 2026 20:16:45 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605&page=2#post-60384 Sat, 10 Mar 2012 16:14:12 +0000 chdot 60384@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>cyclistsinthecity<br /> (@citycyclists)<br /> Posted at 12:30 PM March 10, 2012 on Twitter<br /> "I like the way @VELOBerlin talks about bicycles as 'the new urban mobility'. Kind of says it all, really."</p> <p>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605&page=2#post-60325 Sat, 10 Mar 2012 10:26:15 +0000 gembo 60325@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I used to love our mini-clubman estate when we were kids. You opened the doors at the rear, it had a carpet, you could cram many kids into it. Alas as it was the 1970s it was olive green with a brown wood effect go slower stripe. The reinvention of this motor that belongs to Anth [if my recollection is true] is even nicer. </p> <p>With love of car correlated to driving it r= 0.7 (i.e. explaining 49% of the variance) what we need to chip away at is people reaching for the keys to go to the shops [anth posted previously on his neighbours doing this], take the kids to school, etc. There are too many non-essential car journeys going on because people love using their cars. N.B. this is purely a hypothesis and the correlation coefficient is one I have made up. The first step is to get the non-essential journeys down. After that the switch to bike may come along as a next step? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605&page=2#post-60298 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:23:20 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 60298@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I <em>do</em> love my car. </p> <p>This is not, however, analogous to wanting to drive it all the time. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605&page=2#post-60295 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:09:21 +0000 gembo 60295@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Around the time they tried to introduce the congestion charge in Edinburgh (I was in the minority who voted for this] there was a survey looking at Edinburgh car owner attitudes. Capital came out as top in Scotland/possibly UK for owning and loving cars. Alas IO cannot cite the survey, it made an impression on me at the time [I was very young]. I also thought David Begg had some good ideas.</p> <p>As this was all some time ago things may have changed? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605&page=2#post-60294 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:01:12 +0000 Smudge 60294@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think, with no disrespect, that some of the comments are looking not for a tipping point, but a role reversal.<br /> imho that will not happen.</p> <p>What we have reached now is the state in Edinburgh where a large number of people who I suspect would not categorise themselves as "cyclists" feel able to use bikes to get about town. This is making that use of bicycles acceptable, even trendy, and is pushing it into the public consciousness.</p> <p>This is a world away from the situation ten or twenty years ago.</p> <p>Now to look for the end of car dominance and the ubiquity of bicycles seen in some other countries is, to my mind, to wish your life away seeking the impossible. (Not saying it's bad, just not going to happen in my lifetime, I think! lol)</p> <p>I enjoy driving, I enjoy riding my motorcycle, and I enjoy cycling. Each has their advantages and each have their place. To my mind the target is to have the majority using an appropriate choice of vehicle for a given location/time/task and using it in a responsible and safe manner.</p> <p>If we achieve that particular impossibility we've cracked it ;-) :-p </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605&page=2#post-60292 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 22:24:39 +0000 wingpig 60292@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I loathe my wife's car, if that's any help... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60287 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 21:44:03 +0000 Uberuce 60287@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Tom, I don't know what you mean. Is my bladdery repleteness the issue, or is it the image of me astride a scale, clothed only in my own glory like a furrier Michaelangelo's David, that offends? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60284 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 21:33:47 +0000 Instography 60284@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm not so sure that people love their cars at all. They certainly don't like the driving but they're not at all drawn to any of the alternatives. They used to say people would never recycle at the levels they do now yet somehow that argument has been won. Sure it's uneven but the rates of recycling have rocketed because the environmental argument was won, it became required at a government level and it has been made easier. Give them the space and they'll ride in it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60281 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 21:24:15 +0000 gembo 60281@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>SRD - that is better. Possibly, where we need to start. Everyone on the forum should get rid of their cars. ALso in America apparently less people have cars? Can this be true?</p> <p>THat was me shouting at you outside your dept. the other morning. [wrong thread] </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60280 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 21:21:48 +0000 Tom 60280@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think we'll know a tipping point has been reached when people arrive at work on bikes saying that they hate cycling but they have to. Right now everyone here seems to do it because they like it.</p> <p>Uberuce - did you have to paint such a h***ish mental picture in this forumites head? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60279 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 21:19:27 +0000 Uberuce 60279@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If I had a car, I'd take it away from me. People with my reflexes and attention span shouldn't be allowed them. It's bad enough that they let me out on a bike, although since I am now no longer officially overweight* for the first time since 1997, I guess I'm less of a threat to other world users.</p> <p>*Weighed myself yesterday and came in at 79.5kg wearing T-shirt and undies whilst full of lunch and needing a pee. If my maths is correct, my height of 1.78m means I'm BMI 25.09, so I'd sneak under on a nekkid dawn weigh. I can barely recognize the skeletal wraith that greets me in the mirror of a morning and I'm only just in accepted weight? Don't believe the hype, people. BMI is Guffasaurus Rex. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60270 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 20:47:51 +0000 SRD 60270@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>gembo - your point holds, but there are at least 4 of us who don't have cars: SRD, Laidback, Crowriver, Custard (i think it was custard...); possibly also Uberuce, kaputnik? Others? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60269 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 20:44:32 +0000 gembo 60269@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>People in Edinburgh also love their cars more than people elsewhere. Even on this Fervent Cycling Forum, we all have at least one car [I know that one or two people don't have a car, but that is all].</p> <p>I was in Stirling today and it was very easy to get to where I was going by bike (The Raploch) once I had alighted from the choo-choo. It will be good when it is possible to say this again in Edinburgh. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60258 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 18:09:38 +0000 ARobComp 60258@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I couldn't comment on price of petrol really as almost all of the liquid I purchase comes in "pint" form and is imbibe-able. </p> <p>I agree with smudge though that we are past a tipping point. One thing I've noticed is FAR fewer people cycling on the pavement around the west end since the roadworks went in. When they were first put up there was at least one or two a day I saw on the pavement. Now I've only seen people pushing. I think perhaps casual cyclists who never really thought about it have realised how disconcerting pedestrians can find it when you're cycling near them. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60250 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 16:14:07 +0000 Smudge 60250@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Well I travelled through Edinburgh this lunchtime and there were loads of people of all types on bikes, and that is on a rather windy day in the "cold" season.</p> <p>I am confidently expecting Edinburgh to be <em>hoaching</em> with cycles come the summer evenings :-)</p> <p>I think we actually have passed at least one tipping point... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60246 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 15:40:34 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 60246@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>And speeling it would seam </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60245 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 15:39:59 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 60245@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Aha, I get you. On a Friday afternoon I lose all sense of subtelty... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60242 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 15:25:31 +0000 crowriver 60242@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@anth, I was just trying to make the point that 'petrol at £2' may not change anything much, at least not straight away. Partly because the unit that costs £2 is much smaller than the unit that makes up MPG. If they still priced petrol in gallons, it would of course seem more expensive and there would be an easy to figure out relationship to distance covered per pound (between 4 and 5 miles for a BMW 3 series, for example). Which I suggest is partly why the petrol retailers went metric: petrol seems cheaper! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60239 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 15:18:09 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 60239@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>'Force of habit' I'd imagine. </p> <p>When presented with an MPG figure without any reference point you can still determine whether it's good or bad. A KPL figure, for me at least, would need converted into MPG to be understood (until it had been used as an alternative for long enough for it to become its own reference point). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60238 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 15:15:29 +0000 crowriver 60238@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.speedlimit.org.uk/petrolprices.html">Petrol prices have been over £2 since 1993</a>. Oh, you meant <em>litres</em>, not gallons... About £6 a gallon on average just now, isn't it? Why then is fuel 'efficiency' still MPG, not KPL?</p> <p>It's a bit like going to the deli counter at the supermarket: everything priced per 100g. Does anyone actually buy 100g of anything? Personally I still buy 1/4, 1/2 and multiples of lbs. 1/4 lb is approx. 250g...</p> <p>Incremental changes, eg. inflation, mean that <em>people don't notice them as much</em>. Petrol prices, increased cycling, cost of cheese from the deli counter... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60221 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 13:03:28 +0000 ARobComp 60221@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think that when petrol hits the £2 mark we'll see a real change! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60202 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 11:32:47 +0000 Tom 60202@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The general agreement that whatever happens, happens slowly is starting to sound like a good thing, at least in my future prediction. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60162 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 08:34:20 +0000 Uberuce 60162@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Agree with Gembo. In my ponderings I've come to the conclusion that in a decade or two a vegetarian activist and a cycling activist will be found propping up a bar somewhere, deep in the depression of stolen win; everyone else would by then be doing what they spent their lives advocating, but not for their proposed reasons. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60161 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 08:01:12 +0000 gembo 60161@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You would think that the price of petrol would push up cycle commuting a little. When the clocks go forward I anticipate an upsurge? There seems to be some expansion in retailers [in Edinburgh at least] - more people buying bikes to sit in garages? This all points to incremental small increases. If it was a political winner there would be more change.I am guessing the fear amongst politicians is that it is actually a vote loser [in edinburgh]. The motor industry also I imagine effective lobbysits and indeed employers [at least in Sunderland] </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60147 Fri, 09 Mar 2012 01:56:40 +0000 Dave 60147@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Overall I agree with Crowriver. There will never be a widespread shift to cycling while it has the image it does (I'm thinking particularly of "to try and stay alive, I wear armour and a luminous suit", but actually I think that's also a symptom of the overall "out"-ness of cycling).</p> <p>The money and political will required to 'fix' the roads simply doesn't exist, and we'll never make a popular activity over feeling unsafe, especially if it's more hassle than a safe option already available. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60135 Thu, 08 Mar 2012 22:24:47 +0000 chdot 60135@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>Carlton Reid (@carltonreid)<br /> 3/8/12 3:46 PM<br /> Taiwan has some of the best cycle infrastructure in the world, wider &amp; better than NL. V lightly used cos not a full network.</p> <p>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60132 Thu, 08 Mar 2012 22:15:18 +0000 chdot 60132@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>David Hembrow (@DavidHembrow)<br /> 3/8/12 3:30 PM<br /> @gnomeicide Dutch and British drivers are alike. In NL they're not where bikes are so you don't interact with them much. Feels much better.</p> <p>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60125 Thu, 08 Mar 2012 21:22:27 +0000 crowriver 60125@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Cyclists on BMW bikes and Mercedes bikes will scoff at anyone on something made by a bike company. </em></p> <p>Who will in turn be ignored by those riding Ferrari bikes and Armani bikes.</p> <p>To be honest I can't see most folk cycling, however much it is promoted. They like their comfy seats, their stereos, their air con, oh and there's the added bonus of being able to bully cyclists and pedestrians. Electric cars will be the new utopia: always close, but never arriving. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60118 Thu, 08 Mar 2012 20:09:06 +0000 Tom 60118@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Hmm, those are low figures. All the more reason for a new brush to sweep away the old ideas. I see a new dawn with Tesco sponsored cycleways, full of people who are being convinced by advertisers - who've also jumped on the bandwagon - that road cycling is for dinosaurs. Cyclists on BMW bikes and Mercedes bikes will scoff at anyone on something made by a bike company. No-one will be allowed to go fast of course, 10mph. So a lifetime's fitness won't count for much in the cycle-jams on the Tesco-paths going in to work. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5605#post-60115 Thu, 08 Mar 2012 19:54:43 +0000 Morningsider 60115@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Honestly, I don't just make this stuff up. The breakdown of trips by main mode in London for 2010 is:</p> <p>Public transport: 34%<br /> Private transport: 41%<br /> Cycle: 2%<br /> Walk: 24%</p> <p>Statistics from TfL, Travel in London Report, Table 2.4, page 28:</p> <p><a href="http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/travel-in-london-report-4.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/travel-in-london-report-4.pdf</a> </p>