http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "A Bridge Too Far?" en Sun, 31 May 2026 20:15:13 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62184 Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:27:00 +0000 kaputnik 62184@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>This is hardly a unique or special case. 4 new RN Support Tankers are coming from ..... South Korea</em></p> <p>Apparently no British shipbuilder even bothered to bid. I think BVT (BAE - Vosper Thornycroft) is the only shipbuilder still in existense that could have built these.</p> <p>Likewise all of Calmac's recent large ferry orders have gone to Poland.</p> <p><em>I have a vague memory that some upset was caused in the first war when allied troops advancing over German dugouts found bags evidencing that they had been built with blue circle cement</em></p> <p>Not sure, but the brand name is old enough (was the Associated Portland Cement Company). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62178 Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:48:32 +0000 cb 62178@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Was it not the case that for the original Forth Bridge the engineers looked all around the world (Empire?) for suitable cement and settled on a local company.</p> <p>Started to Google this, but someone on here will know, if there is something to know.</p> <p>(Seem to remember learning this at school). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62176 Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:40:01 +0000 chdot 62176@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Don't ignore the most basic raw material of all, money."</p> <p>Programme mentioned role of German banks in the Crossrail contract going to Siemens not Bombardier (Derby). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62175 Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:35:56 +0000 alibali 62175@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Don't ignore the most basic raw material of all, money.</p> <p>Will the project be funded by loans from UK banks? Were UK-based bidders supported by investment in plant and research from UK banks?</p> <p>Don't know the answers, but the capital flows probably matter more in the end than the disposal of individual contracts. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62171 Wed, 21 Mar 2012 08:14:35 +0000 Min 62171@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"The real question is why can't Blue Circle compete?"</p> <p>Maybe they just quoted first, meaning the other company could undercut them knowing full well that the costs can expand as much as they want once the project is underway. This is Scotland after all, we have form and plenty of it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62170 Wed, 21 Mar 2012 08:09:51 +0000 wee folding bike 62170@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've got an odd feeling that it was David Niven but I haven't read his books for years.</p> <p>Perhaps if Westminster had not spent 30 years running down industry in favour of services then things would be different.</p> <p>Have a Googles for Ms Lamont's recent question on the steel for the bridge. I think she asked it three times. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62155 Wed, 21 Mar 2012 00:43:15 +0000 Tom 62155@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Smudge: I think I can add something to that. I read an account of the Arctic Convoys in which the author remembered seeing the quayside in Murmansk(?) laden with Blue Circle cement. He noted wryly (given what it had taken to get it there) that at least someone was benefitting from the war. Can't remember the name of the book. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62151 Wed, 21 Mar 2012 00:15:01 +0000 druidh 62151@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This is hardly a unique or special case. 4 new RN Support Tankers are coming from ..... South Korea. I thought shipbuilding was something we still did? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62146 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:52:28 +0000 Smudge 62146@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I have a vague memory that some upset was caused in the first war when allied troops advancing over German dugouts found bags evidencing that they had been built with blue circle cement... or is that an urban myth and I deserve the QI klaxons?!? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62143 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:31:50 +0000 steveo 62143@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>blaming foreigners for cheating... </em></p> <p>I think that is quite common with most things relating to the EU. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62141 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:22:32 +0000 chdot 62141@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Interesting route the welsh took to get round the protectionism rules"</p> <p>The programme gave the impression that the Welsh were playing by the letter <em>and</em> spirit of EU laws. 'Problem' seems to be that Whitehall (and VQ) civil servants were over-interpreting the rules and blaming foreigners for cheating... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62138 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:16:41 +0000 chdot 62138@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"As a tax payer if this folly must be done I'd prefer it to cost as little as possible"</p> <p>Yes, but. </p> <p>Taxpayers will also be picking up the bill for the people in the UK who might have had jobs. </p> <p>I hope the SNP isn't demonstrating complete cynicism with it's lowest-bidder-bridge knowIng that unemployment benefits are 'paid from London'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62137 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:14:36 +0000 steveo 62137@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I don't disagree about transport, the cost of fuel is usually a big enough driver that "green" factors are a given. If we are going to use X kt of fuel oil to ship this stuff the product has to be y cheaper, with that in mind I still have to wonder how the local plant is so much more expensive.</p> <p>Again I have to wonder, why is it that British companies aren't getting these tenders? Are they trying, too expensive, not enough experience, bad experiences with them...? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62136 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:14:05 +0000 Nelly 62136@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I should also say that while advocating british for the sake of it is silly, there can be valid reasons to pay for local production (even if the parent is not local) - e.g. buying a brooks or carradice rather than a plastic far eastern knock off. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62134 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:08:42 +0000 Nelly 62134@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>steveo, I dont think we are fundamentally disagreeing. I love my foreign products!</p> <p>Had a re-read of the bbc article. Steel is coming from spain, poland and china.</p> <p>Interesting route the welsh took to get round the protectionism rules - requirement for apprenticeships, weightings on environmental/sustainability etc. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62131 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:57:43 +0000 kaputnik 62131@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm not advocating protectionism either - Blue Circle are owned by Lafarge who are French. However I think that when the Government comes to do the maths about offering contracts for massive public investment, they would do to factor in some environmental economics/mathematics there too - as in it may cost less in pounds and pence to buy it from Germany but what is the cost of shipping it across North Sea in a bunker-oil fuelled ship and then driving it in diesel powered lorries on the roads.</p> <p>This isn't a few bags of cement, it's going to be some tens of thousands of tons I'd wager.</p> <p>And when it comes to vanity / white elephant projects like needless bridges, I thought the attraction to the Government would have been it was all about protectionism? What's the point in Scotland indebting itself to the tune of a couple of billion quid for all that money to be spent outside the country on German cement and Chinese cables? At least we can blame shoddy German engineering or Spanish trambuilders when that breaks down on the first day :) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62130 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:52:14 +0000 steveo 62130@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>My point is that blue circle dunbar may produce at one rate, but a German company producing in Hungary (say) may produce it for less.</em></p> <p>We are probably a bit far down the globalisation road to start worrying about where a product ultimately comes from, they may produce it for less but that is the "problem" of Blue Circle or the Coal Board or British Layland or Raleigh/Sturmey archer. These days if you can't compete on cost you need to compete on something and for something as cheap and heavy as cement location is pretty big factor. Complaining that those pesky foreigners can do it cheaper doesn't really cut it. As a tax payer if this folly must be done I'd prefer it to cost as little as possible.</p> <p>Though as Chdot points out its moot since the German company seem to be a full end to end not just the cement people. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62126 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:41:51 +0000 chdot 62126@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"The real question is why can't Blue Circle compete?"</p> <p>Perhaps, but the main point of the programme was that the UK (apart from Wales) tend to offer tenders for the whole job - with no control on sub-contractors or conditions about using local suppliers. </p> <p>So Blue Circle - not British <em>owned</em> - probable weren't asked 'how much'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62125 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:41:12 +0000 Nelly 62125@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"and?"</p> <p>If the basic product is the same, where is the cost differential?</p> <p>My point is that blue circle dunbar may produce at one rate, but a German company producing in Hungary (say) may produce it for less.</p> <p>Its the same argument in clothing, electronics etc - I am not advocating protectionism at all. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62120 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:27:01 +0000 steveo 62120@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>And? Protectionist economies are rarely very successful, besides how much British fruit is picked with British labour? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62119 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:24:50 +0000 Nelly 62119@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The german company are perhaps not producing it using german labour. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62118 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:22:14 +0000 steveo 62118@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The real question is why can't Blue Circle compete? The German company has transport costs on top of everything yet is still cheaper.... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62117 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:20:25 +0000 slowcoach 62117@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17381440">Article about this on BBC website</a> this morning: "Welsh prioritise job creation over cost when awarding government contracts" - it can be done better. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62101 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:38:02 +0000 kaputnik 62101@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The Dunbar Blue Circle plant is connected to the railway, so cement could have trundled up the ECML and easily accessed both sides of the Forth. I assume now there will be a fleet of lorries to carry it from Grangemouth or Leith (or knowing this lot, Hunterston) instead. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62095 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:16:17 +0000 crowriver 62095@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So much for the benefits that this white elephant is supposed to bring to the Scottish economy then. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5770#post-62093 Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:09:21 +0000 chdot 62093@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> A Bridge Too Far?<br /> LISTEN :<br /> This Programme Is On Air Now:<br /> Listen Live on BBC Radio 4 (Started at 20:00)</p> <p>SYNOPSIS<br /> To the west of Edinburgh, construction of the new £1.5bn Forth road bridge will use cement shipped across the North Sea under a contract with a German supplier. Scotland's only cement company, based 40 miles from the bridge, was unsuccessful in the bidding. It is claimed that the deal could have maintained 130 jobs in the Dunbar area.</p> <p>" </p>