http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Nearest thing to Dutch style infrastructure in UK en Wed, 13 May 2026 03:49:52 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5961#post-63685 Mon, 02 Apr 2012 12:50:08 +0000 crowriver 63685@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em> The ones that are frequently neglected in winter, or left to their own devices while tree roots push up the tarmac.</em></p> <p>MK's redways have similar issues. Ice probably less of a problem than up here, though there was frost overnight on Saturday...</p> <p>What struck me about the redways was that even though a number of sections were poor or sub-optimal surface quality/design, the fact that the network was, by and large, continuous and/or joined up reasonably well made a big difference. Edinburgh has that to some extent with the NEP network, but that's it basically. The rest is partial, disconnected, etc. and forces cyclists onto roads constantly.</p> <p>I'm itching to try out the Seafield shared use link path now to see if it 'works' or not... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5961#post-63680 Mon, 02 Apr 2012 12:24:26 +0000 Arellcat 63680@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@roibeard, et al.:Franklin's critique of MK's redways also mentioned here a couple of years ago:</p> <p><a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=411#post-3410" rel="nofollow">http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=411#post-3410</a></p> <p><em>"I can imagine that a system like the redways, despite its flaws, would work very well in Edinburgh."</em></p> <p>We can't even properly maintain the bunch of good paths we do have! The ones that are frequently neglected in winter, or left to their own devices while tree roots push up the tarmac. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5961#post-63667 Mon, 02 Apr 2012 11:46:58 +0000 crowriver 63667@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@roibeard, I read both those articles before travelling to MK. They made me more determined to check it out for myself. </p> <p>Based on my experience I am much more inclined to agree with the Manchester Cycling blog. John Franklin's article seems highly partial, his evidence does not stack up, his methodology is poor, he seems determined to promote vehicular cycling at all costs. Frankly I would not want to pursue vehicular cycling in Milton Keynes away from the quieter residential streets and village roads. </p> <p>I agree with John Franklin about the 'bad' reasons why the redways were provided, ie. to clear the roads for motorists' convenience. However the paths are neither as poor nor dangerous as he makes out. Not in my experience anyway. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5961#post-63665 Mon, 02 Apr 2012 11:42:28 +0000 chdot 63665@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Basic conclusion from above article is that in urban areas there are a lot fewer through routes <em>for cars</em></p> <p>Also -</p> <p>"It is only when cycling doesn't feel like an extreme sport that it can become so popular as it is in the Netherlands" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5961#post-63663 Mon, 02 Apr 2012 11:35:05 +0000 chdot 63663@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>'Latest news'</p> <p>"<br /> David Hembrow (@DavidHembrow)</p> <p>4/2/12 7:55 AM<br /> How cyclists in the Netherlands have 100% segregation cars, even though there are not cycle-paths everywhere: </p> <p><a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2012/04/100-segregation-of-bikes-and-cars.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2012/04/100-segregation-of-bikes-and-cars.html</a></p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="https://twitter.com/davidhembrow/status/186708446907871232" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/davidhembrow/status/186708446907871232</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5961#post-63658 Mon, 02 Apr 2012 11:23:54 +0000 chdot 63658@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Long time since I was in MK. </p> <p>Local cycle campaigners weren't enthusiastic about Redways - usual - often goes 'long way', no cycle priority at junctions some red surface loose gravel 'to slow people down'. </p> <p>Suspect last one has been dealt with, but perhaps not other two. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5961#post-63657 Mon, 02 Apr 2012 11:15:51 +0000 Roibeard 63657@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@crowriver - Interesting the love for the Milton Keynes redways - they've been quite controversial...</p> <p><a href="http://manchestercycling.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/milton-keynes-redways.html" rel="nofollow">http://manchestercycling.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/milton-keynes-redways.html</a></p> <p>Folk use them both as an argument against segregation, or as an example of Dutch design done poorly.</p> <p><a href="http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/wiki/milton-keynes-cycle-network-more-dangerous-road-network" rel="nofollow">http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/wiki/milton-keynes-cycle-network-more-dangerous-road-network</a></p> <p>Without direct experience it's difficult to separate agenda from fact, so useful to have your perspective!</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5961#post-63656 Mon, 02 Apr 2012 11:09:00 +0000 Bhachgen 63656@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've just moved to Chorley in Lancashire and am pleasantly surprised at the infrastructure here. Given we are always being told about how much of a great cycling city Edinburgh is, I had expected to find a car-centric nightmare. However the council seems to take their cycle path network pretty seriously. It's a historic market town, not a new town like MK, so not all roads are suitable for segregated lanes but the traffic-calming measures I've seen seem to have taken cyclists' needs into account in the design. There's a large new development called Buckshaw Village to the north of the town and as far as I can see every single street there has a wide, clearly-marked shared-use pavement alongside it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5961#post-63646 Mon, 02 Apr 2012 10:31:25 +0000 crowriver 63646@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I was in Milton Keynes at the weekend for a conference, and having been once before about 20 years ago, was aware they had segregated paths. So I took the silver folder on the train with me, having printed out a map of MK's 'Redways' as they're called (after the red tarmac surface). </p> <p>Let me be clear that it is not Dutch style infrastructure. The paths are shared use, there are corners and ramp gradients that are well below the Dutch standard, they sometimes end abruptly and some surfaces are old, badly maintained or damaged on occasion. Also cyclists have to give way at junctions with the roads. Sometimes (rarely) I would come across a chicane or a badly placed bollard.</p> <p>However the network covers nearly the entire town, mostly runs in parallel with roads or close by, and there are some very good areas with smooth surfaces, well designed curves, etc. There were not the continual obstacles, gates, chicanes, etc. that one finds on similar infrastructure in Scotland.</p> <p>It was actually very refreshing and enjoyable to be able to cycle and only very occasionally have to do it on a road or encounter motor vehicles at junctions. Pedestrians (even dog walkers) are clearly used to sharing space with cyclists and tolerate cyclists, mostly treating them with courtesy. Only once did I get a surly response, from a group of teenage girls: not that surprising.</p> <p>Certainly the redways are not perfect but it does show what can be done with some foresight when planning new developments. On the other hand MK is really designed around the car, with its grid of dual carriageways, roundabouts, local roads feeding them. Public transport is apparently pretty poor, the grid system does not suit buses I'd guess, and the town is spread out. As a cyclist you need the redways as many roads are too hostile due to the speeds vehicles travel at.</p> <p>It's interesting though that in Milton Keynes, shared use paths seem to work. I know that Glenrothes has a reasonable cycle path network, but it is tokenistic, limited and poor quality compared to the redways. Livingston and thereabouts has similar issues. Don't know about Cumbernauld and East Kilbride but I suspect the same story. </p> <p>What a pity that the new housing that has gone up around Edinburgh, Fife, etc, did not include similar infrastructure. I can imagine that a system like the redways, despite its flaws, would work very well in Edinburgh. </p>