http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: First Scotland to discontinue East Lothian and Midlothian services en Thu, 21 May 2026 19:54:05 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971&page=2#post-72724 Wed, 30 May 2012 12:33:01 +0000 chdot 72724@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/transport/smooth-handover-of-axed-first-routes-to-help-passengers-1-2326803" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/transport/smooth-handover-of-axed-first-routes-to-help-passengers-1-2326803</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971&page=2#post-72710 Wed, 30 May 2012 11:28:27 +0000 kaputnik 72710@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>All the former Lothian Region councils have a share in Lothian Buses, although East, Mid and West only have a minority, and LB has for many years never operated in West. Perhaps if the non-Edinburgh councils increased their shareholding they might be keen to benefit from LB's undeniably good service rather than be lumbered with Worstbus. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971&page=2#post-72704 Wed, 30 May 2012 11:04:17 +0000 chdot 72704@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971&amp;replies=32#post-64263">I think LB might have to rethink its flat fare policy</a>."</p> <p>New company, new zones. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971&page=2#post-72703 Wed, 30 May 2012 10:58:25 +0000 chdot 72703@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> East Lothian Council (@ELCouncil)</p> <p>29/05/2012 10:03</p> <p>Details of new 113 bus service, Pencaitland &amp; Ormiston to Edinburgh City Centre starting 11 June </p> <p><a href="http://eastlothianbuses.com" rel="nofollow">http://eastlothianbuses.com</a></p> <p>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971&page=2#post-68420 Wed, 02 May 2012 14:13:42 +0000 crowriver 68420@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Common sense breaks out at last. So close to the council elections too! Coinkidinky? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-68405 Wed, 02 May 2012 13:27:23 +0000 DaveC 68405@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I Like it:</p> <p>Maroon bus co comes to rescue of marooned communities. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-68400 Wed, 02 May 2012 13:18:27 +0000 cb 68400@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/bus-firm-steps-in-to-offer-villages-lifeline-1-2269088">http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/bus-firm-steps-in-to-offer-villages-lifeline-1-2269088</a></p> <p>"LOTHIAN Buses is riding to the rescue of marooned communities following major cutbacks by rival First Bus.</p> <p>The council-owned bus company has agreed a three-year contract to step into the public transport vacuum left behind by First Scotland East’s decision to withdraw services from several rural villages in Midlothian and East Lothian from June 10." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-64328 Fri, 06 Apr 2012 08:27:57 +0000 Tulyar 64328@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The poor fit of a bus operation that is run from Camelon yet has huge urban centres in Livingston, Stirling, Galashiels and the capital city Edinburgh plus rural threads out to Carlisle, Dunbar and Callander (if not Killin), with services running via M8 and Aberfoyle/Drymen in to Glasgow clearly has a major management problem because of the geographic spread and variety of service profiles.</p> <p>For West Lothian I'd be looking at EM Horsborough who have quietly grown a network with a better fit to local travel patterns, and the express coach services to Glasgow (which have carried bikes) might tempt Bruce of Salsburgh, or Hendersons/McIndless to fill in from the West Side. Ian Craig's brother already has a strong position to sweep up any of the frankly useless vestigal services to Aberfoyle and Drymen, which finish too early for many commuters (last bus to Aberfoyle was befoe 17.00 last I checked. West Coast Motors runs a separate Glasgow operation but of course it provides overnight stabling and bunkering for the WCM coaches operating the shared Citylink routes from Argyll. Stirling might see one of a couple of strong independents (names escape me at present - one based in Alloa) growing</p> <p>To the South East I'd reckon that Munros in the Borders will take up the slack and Eve's looks the stronger in E Lothian.</p> <p>To be sensible Lothian should keep a focus on the services in the city itself although having a share in say an enhanced but separate operation based in jedburgh/Galashiels or Dunbar/Haddington, much in the reverse of what West Coast has done between Argyll and Glasgow might make sense, as the rural operation would get some overnight stabling for their vehicles that stay in Edinburgh and Lothian might have a reciprocal deal for the other limits of their routes (or do a route switch for places like Penicuik) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-64263 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 12:11:03 +0000 chdot 64263@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Presumably ELC still own 3% of LB(?)</p> <p>I think LB might have to rethink its flat fare policy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-64262 Thu, 05 Apr 2012 12:03:41 +0000 amir 64262@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Is council plan a fare deal?"</p> <p><a href="http://www.eastlothiancourier.com/news/roundup/articles/2012/04/05/426692-is-council-plan-a-fare-deal/" rel="nofollow">http://www.eastlothiancourier.com/news/roundup/articles/2012/04/05/426692-is-council-plan-a-fare-deal/</a></p> <p>"More Lothian Buses services could be one solution, but East Lothian Council will need to act to ensure communities do not become only the preserve of people with cars." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-64133 Wed, 04 Apr 2012 16:44:56 +0000 steveo 64133@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><strong>Council plans 'arms-length' bus firm for East Lothian</strong><br /> <em>East Lothian Council is considering setting up an 'arms-length' bus company following the announcement First Scotland East is withdrawing services.</em><br /> <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-17615646" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-17615646</a></p> <p>First withdrawing could actually be good news for all involved, though why they don't just put what ever money would be needed to set up their own bus company into LRT i'm not sure. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-64097 Wed, 04 Apr 2012 14:17:36 +0000 TonyJ 64097@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Some of us who live in Rural West Edinburgh don't have a choice about FirstBus as Lothian won't run services here as "it isn't profitable"...... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-64080 Wed, 04 Apr 2012 13:22:59 +0000 chdot 64080@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/edinburgh/ed-bowsher-travel-woe-ahead-but-buses-aren-t-the-only-commute-1-2214437" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/edinburgh/ed-bowsher-travel-woe-ahead-but-buses-aren-t-the-only-commute-1-2214437</a></p> <p>Doesn't mention bicycles! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-64079 Wed, 04 Apr 2012 13:19:26 +0000 chdot 64079@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/edinburgh/council-chiefs-to-rescue-with-state-run-bus-plan-1-2214145" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/edinburgh/council-chiefs-to-rescue-with-state-run-bus-plan-1-2214145</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63979 Wed, 04 Apr 2012 00:11:13 +0000 Tulyar 63979@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>First has not really worked out how to do well with rural-outer urban routes. In Cornwall the First WN MD's had a habit of resigning and starting up a locally based competing service. At Callander the old SMT operation had a 3-bus garage and local drivers so that the morning commuter trips did not run 'dead' miles, but First went to centralise (Larbert) for economies of scale.</p> <p>I suspect that Eve's and Munro will move to fill some gaps, and MacEwans might even try to get back the X95 (shudder). We may well need to work out a new model here and one that is being tried on the Isle of Wight. A big bus operation has the top quality facilities to maintain buses, and bulk buying power to run a big fleet. They provide the bus that operates from the village to a 'local' or community bus operation, who offer the local base and locally 'employed' staff. The costly issue of having to keep a spare bus to run the service when a main bus is in for its weekly service whether you run 1 or 6 buses, is also sorted. </p> <p>I found the Cornish operation - managed at the top level from BRISTOL had managers stretched over a huge geographical area, and no surprise recently to hear that Stagecoach had bought the Barnstaple Depot and taken over the main routes. Stagecoach incidently have some interesting tread lightly arrangements - in Penrith they rent space in a haulage yard instead of running their own bus garage and swap-over buses to get them serviced on the Carlisle-Penrith services. Some of First's thinking is perhaps too 'conventional' for the services they have found themselves operating?</p> <p>That said Arriva have now sold-up in Scotland, and their Former MD is now MD with McGills, who have become a significant Glasgow and Clyde Coast operator, whilst Ian Craig's brother (West Coast Motors) has made significant inroads on First's monopoly of Glasgow in North West (having just taken over John Morrow) and Henderson's is the strong player in SE quadrant/N Lanarkshire. </p> <p>Hendersons are generally OK with bikes on board outside peak times - vary handy when heading out to Strathaven from Hamilton, and West Coast officially carries bikes on some of their routes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63961 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 21:25:57 +0000 druidh 63961@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Living in Balerno, the FB and LRT 44's compete against each other. I try to get the FB as that gets in to town much quicker - <em>because most folk will let it pass in order to get an LRT bus</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63949 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 20:31:58 +0000 Claggy Cog 63949@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Living in south Edinburgh there are a number of First Bus routes, which will be withdrawn and I will miss them, not that I take buses often, but they invariably turn up well before a LB and are usually quicker getting from A to B. In London if you buy an Oyster card you can get a child's day ticket for a quid, schoolchildren travel free on London buses, which probably sets up a precedent in their minds, i.e. using buses or public transport is good and they will continue to do so. Many pensioners when they get their bus pass ditch the car...college/university students, who do get bus passes cheaper, perhaps would not consider getting a car if they got free travel on buses. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63928 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 18:24:10 +0000 Marianne 63928@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"why would anyone want to take a First Bus within town when there is the option of taking a LB? "</p> <p>Why would I wait an extra 10 minutes in the cold for a Lothian Bus when a First one going to the same place arrives first? Plus on the route to my parent's house the First Bus gives (or used to give) change. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63881 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 15:17:55 +0000 amir 63881@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"why would anyone want to take a First Bus within town when there is the option of taking a LB? "</p> <p>We often use the First 95 service to get into town in preference to the LRT 3 service. The bus is actually nicer, it doesn't stop as much (it is an X service) and it has fewer disruptive passengers. It is also currently cheaper. When First ran the 81 service through Eskbank, the buses were often in much worse condition though. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63879 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 15:11:47 +0000 kaputnik 63879@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I have some sympathy with First having to compete against a company whose main aim isn't profit</em></p> <p>In "defence" of Lothian Buses, it's still a private company that has to return a dividend to its shareholders. The setup is a bit weird, it gives the shareholders (majority Edinburgh council, token shareholdings from East / Mid / West Lothian) a fixed amount based on revenue, regardless of whether it is in profit or loss for the year. This arrangement works in LB's favour most years when it is in the black as it can re-invest in its business.</p> <p>I also wouldn't say that competition with LB is the issue here - many of the routes affected have no crossover with LB. And where there is competition - why would anyone want to take a First Bus within town when there is the option of taking a LB? They long ago gave up trying to compete with LB after the "bus wars" when they tried to muscle out LB and were counter-muscled. And now they offer a rubbish service in crap old buses. It's a pretty simple choice.</p> <p>I don't feel too much pity for First as a company. If they can't turn a profit on a largely monopoly service after years and years of minimal investment in their service then perhaps there's something wrong with their business model. And any company that thought introducing bendy busses en masse to the wide, expansive streets of Edinburgh with their sweeping corners needs its head examined </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63876 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 15:01:01 +0000 steveo 63876@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Free bus passes with your "Road Tax"? Bump up VED mahoosively and issue every one with a "free" bus pass, it then becomes a cost vs convenience issue. If you <em>need</em> to use the car you're going to pay for it otherwise you can get the bus any where for free. Might reduce over crowding on the trains too. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63873 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 14:57:13 +0000 lionfish 63873@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From a practical point of view, rather than give buses tax-free fuel (maybe complicated to organise/implement), just give them funding, which we already do. If you want more help, give them more money (maybe extra should be provided as fuel prices go up).</p> <p>We took the bus from Perth to Scone at the weekend, the bus was ~hourly and had ~8 people on. In 2 minutes 5x that number would have driven the same route. I'm not sure how to get people back into public transport. Once the investment's been made in a car, using a bus doesn't make much sense.</p> <p>I think in Germany and other European countries there are annual free-travel passes. This might be a good compromise: Once you've spent the initial up-front cost of this pass, the choice between fuel/hassle/parking of a car vs 'free' public transport seems much more favourable... if that makes sense.</p> <p>Anyway, we had a fantastic weekend camping near Scone, and didn't need a car to get out in the countryside! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63871 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 14:52:39 +0000 crowriver 63871@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>'Ian Craig, managing director of Lothian Buses, said: "We are aware of the unfortunate developing situation at First Scotland East. We will be reviewing the impact of these planned changes to our own network and in the coming days will assess if there are potential opportunities to enhance our network in areas where services may otherwise be lost." '</p> <p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-17583509" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-17583509</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63867 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 14:42:25 +0000 steveo 63867@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm not sure how much of a difference would be seen at the ticket price. It would really depend on the ratio of fuel litres to individual passengers. I doubt it would help in Edinburgh since the amount of fuel in the ticket price (i don't think) is that high given the ticket prices have not really tracked to the oil price. It might help rural operators but the cynic in me thinks it will just go to the staff party and not to the passenger. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63866 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 14:35:33 +0000 amir 63866@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Exactly - this should help to reduce ticket prices thus making buses more attractive compared to private transport. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63862 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 14:20:48 +0000 steveo 63862@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Don't think so, don't see why they should. Their customers are using it just the same as any other driver simply pass this cost on. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63859 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 14:14:53 +0000 amir 63859@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Should (do) bus companies pay less tax on fuel? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63858 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 14:13:33 +0000 recombodna 63858@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Makes the roads slightly safer for all of us. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63857 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 14:11:00 +0000 steveo 63857@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I have some sympathy with First having to compete against a company whose main aim isn't profit, it distorts the market forces (race to the bottom). However They don't help themselves they invariably run dirty old buses and their drivers... If you can't compete on price you have to compete some other way or get out of the game, Fist seem unwilling to offer a better standard than they provide even equalling the standard of Lothian Buses would put them in a better position when both turn up at once. So Bye bye. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5971#post-63856 Tue, 03 Apr 2012 14:03:49 +0000 chdot 63856@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/Government-comment-on-First-Group-statement" rel="nofollow">http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/Government-comment-on-First-Group-statement</a> </p>