http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "City fathers have to choose. Cars or bicycles" Jeremy Clarkson en Sun, 31 May 2026 21:02:15 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049&page=2#post-64743 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:35:52 +0000 chdot 64743@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Some 'print' -</p> <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/news/road-users-face-fines-in-city-s-safety-bid-1-2214170" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotsman.com/news/road-users-face-fines-in-city-s-safety-bid-1-2214170</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2012/04/03/city-safer-cycling-campaign-launched" rel="nofollow">http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2012/04/03/city-safer-cycling-campaign-launched</a></p> <p>"<br /> The Highway Code requires that motorists stay out of the box when signals are red (or risk a £60 fine and three penalty points)<br /> "</p> <p><a href="http://www.edinburghguide.com/blog/edg/roadsafetycampaignaimssquarelyatbikeboxes-10244" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghguide.com/blog/edg/roadsafetycampaignaimssquarelyatbikeboxes-10244</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049&page=2#post-64741 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:23:21 +0000 alibali 64741@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Im not sure how drivers are supposed to know about the enforement of ASLs aside from the bus adverts though. If I wasn't reading this forum, I doubt I'd have noticed.</p> <p>Anybody heard any "heads up" announcements on BBC Scotland/ Forth FM or the like? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049&page=2#post-64688 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:38:00 +0000 crowriver 64688@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There was a brief 'halo' effect immediately after the ASLs were re-painted in Abbeyhill, with motorists staying out of them. Lasted about a week, then they were all straight back to ignoring them.</p> <p>I expect the enforcement actions may have a deterrent effect for a while, and maybe permanently for those who get a fine. I reckon it won't take long for most drivers to 'forget' all about it though once it's over. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64686 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:09:01 +0000 Arellcat 64686@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I think there has already been better 'behaviour' since CEC did some painting. </em></p> <p>Interestingly, based on my observations over the Easter weekend I would have said the opposite! In some instances it almost looked as though drivers were actively trying to prevent cyclists using the ASLs. But then it may have simply been the routes I was using. Some areas seem particularly prone: Braidburn Terr; West Savile Terr; George IV Br; Gilmore Pl; Tarvit St...</p> <p>I'll have another round of observations on my way home tonight.</p> <p>Incidentally, those red chippings CEC has used in place of red coating are quite hard to see. There's a long stretch on the resurfaced western end of Dalry Road, but I'll take good tarmac over red laning any day. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64684 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:58:10 +0000 crowriver 64684@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Spain generally seems to be even worse for cyclists than the UK. At least there is good public transport.</p> <p><a href="http://moving-to-madrid.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/safe-cycling-in-madrid.html" rel="nofollow">http://moving-to-madrid.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/safe-cycling-in-madrid.html</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64682 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:34:07 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 64682@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yeah, did some reading at lunchtime and it sounds like a bit of a nightmare to ride around. Pah, was hoping to have a morning to hire a bike and ride out to the Bernabeu. Might metro it instead. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64680 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:18:05 +0000 crowriver 64680@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Visited Madrid a few times. It has never struck me a cycling city. Fast roads radiate out from the centre. Good public transport. More a walking/metro/bus city. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64672 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:10:30 +0000 Baldcyclist 64672@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I was in Madrid about a month ago for a few days, didn't see many cyclists on the road except a few older guys on road bikes.</p> <p>Most of the cycling on show seemed to be younger males on fixie type bikes, weaving through people on the pavements. No one seemed to take any notice of this, including the Police who were on every street corner, so it must be fairly normal and accepted there.</p> <p>Mind you, the roads didn't look particularly cycle friendly to me, so the pavement thing is probably understandable.</p> <p>On roads though, I was fairly impressed with the underground motorway infrastructure, which takes you right into the city centre from a fair distance out. There were also a lot of underground car parks available, so cars weren't littering the streets and double parking etc, mind you with the amount of Police about it would be unwise to park illegally for any length of time... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64666 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:39:52 +0000 Tom 64666@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>anth: <em>"I'm hoping to try out cycling in Madrid in June"</em></p> <p>Nicky saw these in Madrid though she didn't try them:</p> <p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/44681630@N02/6863248320/"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7242/6863248320_08fa546818.jpg"></a><br /> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/44681630@N02/6863248320/">Bike hire scheme in Madrid</a> by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/people/44681630@N02/">Cycling Mollie</a>, on Flickr</p> <p>...and she didn't try these either:</p> <p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/44681630@N02/6863254276/"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7121/6863254276_1ffd872d9b.jpg"></a><br /> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/44681630@N02/6863254276/">360 degree bicycle track in Madrid</a> by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/people/44681630@N02/">Cycling Mollie</a>, on Flickr</p> <p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/44681630@N02/7009365469/"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7220/7009365469_90f844b9a6.jpg"></a><br /> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/44681630@N02/7009365469/">Wooden bicycle</a> by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/people/44681630@N02/">Cycling Mollie</a>, on Flickr </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64654 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 10:34:14 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 64654@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Oh that rolling forward thing is annoying. Even more so when you're directly in front of them. I've never understood it, just how much time does starting 3 yards further forward actually save? And the majority of the time the roller seems to be oblivious when the light actually turns green and so loses the time advantage anyway.</p> <p>Saw a BMW 6 Series yesterday easily going 40 in the 20 zone near my house. "He's going a bit quick," I thought, then watched as he hauled on the brakes to stop at the red light ahead, not only not managing to stop before the ASL, but going over the second stop line as well. Glad there was no-one stopped in it. But remember, it's not speed that kills... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64651 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 10:25:14 +0000 SRD 64651@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Over more than a week, I had not seen a single car in an ASL, then last night on the way home, not only was there a BMW well into the ASL at Gilmore Place and Viewforth, but he kept rolling forward towards me. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64648 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 10:06:02 +0000 Nelly 64648@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I think there has already been better 'behaviour' since CEC did some painting."</p> <p>Wife and I did some anecdotal testing on this yesterday (not just edinburgh) while out in the car - every (and I mean every) set of lights we stopped at had some numpty in the ASL, sometimes the same person at a series of lights - which indicates a behavioural or education issue. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64642 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:47:22 +0000 amir 64642@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Mandatory cycle lanes would have to be built well - i.e. with good surfaces and wide enough. They would also need to be swept.</p> <p>Cycle lanes in the main in and around Edinburgh tend to be on the narrow side - this is a real problem when the road surface is tricky and/or you are going downhill at speed and I often cycle outside the lane. In one of the photos above, it might be a bit frustrating to be behind a heavy trike travelling say at 10 mph. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64638 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:42:54 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 64638@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm pretty certain you do get fined for parking in the cycle lanes in Copenhagen. But it's more than that, it genuinely is a total mindset. I've used the example plenty of times, but more than once when riding in Copenhagen I'd have a car go past then indicate right for a turn ahead. Even if far enough ahead that they could make the turn without me having to slow as they crossed my path they would stop. Check it was clear, wait for me, <em>then</em> go.</p> <p>It happened all the time, noticed it while walking as well and watching the cyclists. And they did it whether there was a kerb creating true segregation, or paint giving the pseudo-separation.</p> <p>I don't think there's any one cause of this. Strict liability will play a part; as will the fact that most of the drivers will also cycle; sheer numbers of cyclists means it's prudent to look as well as more often than not there will eb a bike about; education plays its part with pro-cycling government and councils reinforcing the message.</p> <p>I think when segregationists extol the virtues of segregation they do genuinely mean a separate infrastructure for bikes; but there is also a realisation that true separation like that can't be achieved on every single street, and here the segregation is in the minds of the people using the facilities.</p> <p>It's difficult, without going there and actually riding on the facilities and using the streets, to get over just how 'unremarkable' it feels to cycle in Copenhagen. I wrote about it once describing Copenhagen as a ballet; Amsterdam as a rave, and I think that still holds. There's a flow to cycling in Copenhagen that makes you forget all about it. Not once, not for a fraction of a second, did I feel even uncomfortable on a bike in Copenhagen, let alone threatened. Cycling in Amsterdam, Paris and London were somewhat different (though strangely I really enjoyed riding in London).</p> <p>I'm hoping to try out cycling in Madrid in June - gradually working through the European capitals... :P </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64632 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:36:04 +0000 chdot 64632@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Sorry to be cynical,"</p> <p>Probably a natural state when it comes to 'transport'.</p> <p>"but I think they aren't "beginning", they're just going to do it for a couple of weeks, and then move on to something "more important"."</p> <p>Probably, but the education and even 2 weeks enforcement <em>will</em> make a difference. </p> <p>I think there has already been better 'behaviour' since CEC did some painting. </p> <p>Such maintenance is obviously important. </p> <p>If the police have done the enforcement once, it's easier to expect a repeat 'as required'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64625 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:17:00 +0000 Morningsider 64625@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Paint can be effective - there, I've said it. The thing is, it has to be "right" paint. Mandatory cycle lanes, those indicated by an unbroken white line, cannot be entered by motor vehicles in normal circumstances (they can't extend over junctions). The creation of such lanes along with decent enforcement could work. Helping to create a Danish style regard for such infrastructure. (Do Danes get fined for driving/parking on painted cycle lanes? I'd be intrigued to know).</p> <p>Mandatory cycle lanes are a nuisance for council's to create, so they generally don't bother. At present, any change to the system for creating such lanes would require action by the UK Government (stop yawning at the back). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64624 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:14:57 +0000 gembo 64624@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I read the David hembrow link in here where he describes nederlands segregation in detail. Many streets dead end for cars eg around school routes so kids cycle on car free but not exactly segregated roads. I think (admittedly from a position of St Kildan style shunning?) that JC means segregated from the point of cars having roads to themselves and cyclists finding some other road that he isn't bothered about so long as he can have his car road? The majority on here would presumably be reading segregation as equal share of road use possibly as a means to encourage cycling. I have long advocated princes st fro trams and buses, queen st for other forms of motorised vehicles and George st for bikes, perhaps I am agreeing with JC in a moment of shame? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64621 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:57:58 +0000 Roibeard 64621@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@chdot - <em>Things are changing - there is a big new 20mph zone (however imperfect), the police are beginning to enforce ASLs.</em></p> <p>Sorry to be cynical, but I think they aren't "beginning", they're just going to do it for a couple of weeks, and then move on to something "more important". They used to do the same thing with bus lanes, policing them for a few days a year, and leaving anarchy for the rest of the year.</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64619 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:48:55 +0000 chdot 64619@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Maybe with a few kerbs here and there you can train drivers to treat paint like kerbs."</p> <p>Not sure how far your tongue was in your cheek there. </p> <p><em>But</em> that surely is the key. </p> <p>Complete segregatation is clearly impossible. In urban areas there shouldn't be too many places where vehicles are allowed/expected to do 30mph. </p> <p>Things are changing - there is a big new 20mph zone (however imperfect), the police are beginning to enforce ASLs. </p> <p>The later is quite important. There is currently an education programme in place (back of buses etc.) pointing out the law, <em>also</em> the police are now willing to enforce something that was (presumably) previously regarded as trivial. </p> <p>In future 'the council' is going to have to do (more) things that some people will not like - whether that is banning parking in some places (for instance outside people's houses) or closing streets to through traffic. </p> <p>To do this it will have to take the side of the silent (perhaps) majority <em>or</em> show some 'leadership'. </p> <p>I think with all the recent 'action' - Times campaign, PoP28 etc. - politicians may find this easier. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64611 Tue, 10 Apr 2012 06:55:43 +0000 wingpig 64611@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So when the segregationists go on about segregated facilities they're still meaning "paint" in some cases, though in their experience paint which is obeyed?</p> <p>Maybe with a few kerbs here and there you can train drivers to treat paint like kerbs. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64596 Mon, 09 Apr 2012 22:31:44 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 64596@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Loads of this (there's a small kerb separating)</p> <p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/3396609014/" title="Day 1: Dog Cargo by blackpuddinonnabike, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3622/3396609014_3e91db1ba0.jpg" alt="Day 1: Dog Cargo" /></a></p> <p>But I guess there's also a fair amount of this - the problem is we look at these with UK eyes. Drivers stay out of those lanes, and check before crossing them - the mindset means that the white line is effectively segregation.</p> <p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/3395978631/" title="Day 2: Cruising by blackpuddinonnabike, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3556/3395978631_ce81897dcb.jpg" alt="Day 2: Cruising" /></a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64595 Mon, 09 Apr 2012 22:28:56 +0000 SRD 64595@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>mainly fairly central - everytime I tried to cross a road, bikes cam flying around the corner. even in the very residential areas, my recollection is just nice wide streets with lots of bikes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64594 Mon, 09 Apr 2012 22:26:12 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 64594@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Whereabouts in Copenhagen were you SRD? We cycled all over loads of it a couple of years back and virtually everywhere was segregated. It really was a glorious place to ride. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64592 Mon, 09 Apr 2012 21:44:03 +0000 Min 64592@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So long as they choose bicycles. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64591 Mon, 09 Apr 2012 21:40:22 +0000 wingpig 64591@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've been catching up on Forbrydelsen recently. Lots of establishing shots feature streets busy with cars.</p> <p>"Praises cycling" is a little misrepresentative. "Advocates leching and keeping cycles off car-roads" sounds closer. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64590 Mon, 09 Apr 2012 21:36:08 +0000 SRD 64590@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The thing is, the bits of Copenhagen that I saw last year, there was very little segregation at all. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64589 Mon, 09 Apr 2012 21:29:02 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 64589@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>The upshot is a city that works. It’s pleasing to look at. It’s astonishingly quiet. It’s safe. And no one wastes half their life looking for a parking space. I’d live there in a heartbeat</em>"</p> <p>Presumably he'd actually be in support, therefore, of removing cars to be replaced with bikes in the UK's cities? (article being put in citycycling as we 'speak') </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64587 Mon, 09 Apr 2012 21:25:18 +0000 steveo 64587@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Like it or not, his opinion in this piece is similar to the segregated cycling and cycle chic crowd. Whilst he is the probably not the ambassador one might choose his message is fundamentally the same, cars and cyclists don't mesh, if you want to boost cycling you need to get them <strike> out the way</strike> on separate infrastructure and you can cycle in "normal" clothes providing you look good, sorry cycle slowly.... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64586 Mon, 09 Apr 2012 21:11:22 +0000 SRD 64586@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>with enemies like that, who needs friends? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6049#post-64584 Mon, 09 Apr 2012 20:56:23 +0000 Instography 64584@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Jings. With friends like that, who needs enemies? </p>