http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Review of sentencing for killing cyclists en Mon, 18 May 2026 15:29:42 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075&page=2#post-79988 Tue, 31 Jul 2012 23:12:48 +0000 Cycle PC 79988@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Hello,</p> <p>As the reply states, Freedom of Information does not apply to information held by the police, which may result in court proceedings.</p> <p>Have a look at: -</p> <p><a href="http://www.itspublicknowledge.info/home/ScottishInformationCommissioner.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.itspublicknowledge.info/home/ScottishInformationCommissioner.asp</a></p> <p>or</p> <p><a href="http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/governmentcitizensandrights/yourrightsandresponsibilities/dg_4003239" rel="nofollow">http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/governmentcitizensandrights/yourrightsandresponsibilities/dg_4003239</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075&page=2#post-79987 Tue, 31 Jul 2012 22:40:51 +0000 Darkerside 79987@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>With no legal training, but with the benefit of a fair bit of time arguing over contracts, I reckon the original request was too broad. There's no chance of getting interview transcripts etc, so including those in the request provides an easy excuse to reject the application in its entirety. Maybe just go for the outcome of the collision investigation r something similar? </p> <p>It does highlight the lack of an investigation body which solely exists to find safety related "lessons learnt" for road incidents. The corresponding bodies for air, road and rail work well, partly because their reports are not admissible in court. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075&page=2#post-79980 Tue, 31 Jul 2012 20:17:40 +0000 lionfish 79980@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>katsdekker - Their messages are very cryptic. There is a police officer who often looks in on the forum (in an official capacity) to provide advice and information. I wonder if they could help. (I'll pm them). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075&page=2#post-79957 Tue, 31 Jul 2012 16:32:08 +0000 katsdekker 79957@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I (on behalf of Newcastle Cycling Campaign) was attempting to obtain the police report for this incident. Minefield!! <a href="http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/police_report_for_cyclists_death_2" rel="nofollow">http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/police_report_for_cyclists_death_2</a> </p> <p>I long since have heard that even for relatives of the deceased it is difficult to get hold of. </p> <p>Gee, help us. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075&page=2#post-66866 Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:32:12 +0000 Roibeard 66866@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yep, I felt the need to confirm this with the ICO and they're indeed exempt from FoI. The equivalent in Scotland would be subject to FoI though.</p> <p>Instead the inquest itself is public, if you choose to attend.</p> <p>I think the coroner himself is under a bit of pressure due to the reporting!</p> <p>Oh, and it turns out that coroner's are a bit like grocer's with regard to apostrophe's - my apologies...</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075&page=2#post-66850 Tue, 24 Apr 2012 12:31:41 +0000 Dave 66850@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Really? How bizarre! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075&page=2#post-66819 Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:48:46 +0000 Roibeard 66819@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Dave, sorry I think we're on a hiding to nothing. Turns out that coroner's aren't covered by FoI, the only thing public is the meeting, the resulting media reports, and the death certificate (if you go to Newcastle).</p> <p>With no official record, we're left with an assertion that the coroner didn't say what the media said he said.</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075&page=2#post-66805 Tue, 24 Apr 2012 10:46:49 +0000 Dave 66805@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Roibeard, care to make life easy for me with an email address? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075&page=2#post-66800 Tue, 24 Apr 2012 10:15:29 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 66800@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>... they could just have been abusing their power to get a guy jailed for something that he would not have been jailed for if he had vandalised normal peoples cars</em>"</p> <p>Although the police have no say or control over any sentencing. Indeed they have no say over whether the charge even gets taken forward, that's all down to the fiscal and then the judge... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075&page=2#post-66797 Tue, 24 Apr 2012 10:12:08 +0000 Roibeard 66797@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've had a terse email from the coroner rejecting any implied criticism as ill-informed and putting it down to the reporting. I've asked for his report so that I might be properly informed...</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075&page=2#post-66708 Mon, 23 Apr 2012 18:10:34 +0000 Min 66708@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yes, they could just have been abusing their power to get a guy jailed for something that he would not have been jailed for if he had vandalised normal peoples cars.</p> <p>Roibeard - <em>Apparently the coroner thinks that overtaking where the road narrows, without giving plenty of room (as much as for a car), as a result causing the death of another road user, is blameless. </em></p> <p>Obviously the PC involved thought the driver was blameless too since the language used makes it looks as if the driver only ran him down very gently. I guess it was the cyclists fault for dying. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075&page=2#post-66702 Mon, 23 Apr 2012 17:22:25 +0000 mgj 66702@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Min, Crowriver, cars parked outside a police station might well belong to police officers or civilian staff, or to a vulnerable witness giving evidence to court remotely. Not as bad as a young lad I once had in front of me who didnt know that one of the 10 cars he had broken into belonged to a CID officer... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075&page=2#post-66658 Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:00:41 +0000 crowriver 66658@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There's also the issue of intent, and the question of proof. Presumably he was apprehended at the scene, 'caught red handed'. There is little doubt he intended the damage, even if he was rendered 'fou' by the drink. He may be a 'well kent face' to the polis/sheriffs round those parts.</p> <p>In contrast, trying to prove that a driver was careless or dangerous without corroborating witness accounts must be tricky. Unless the vicitim survives, the driver's account, plus tyre skid marks, is about all you've got. Hence the excuses: SMIDSY, BBTL*, temporary loss of attention/concentration, 'blackout', etc.</p> <p>* - Blinded By The Light </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075&page=2#post-66656 Mon, 23 Apr 2012 12:16:30 +0000 Roibeard 66656@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Meanwhile in Newcastle:</p> <p><a href="http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-east-news/todays-news/2012/04/21/heaton-vicar-died-after-bike-hit-by-moving-car-61634-30806136/">Cyclist killed by motorist - neither at fault according to coroner</a></p> <p>Apparently the coroner thinks that overtaking where the road narrows, without giving plenty of room (as much as for a car), as a result causing the death of another road user, is blameless. (162, 163, 167 &amp; 212 for those keeping score.) Of course, all allegedly, based on the newspaper report.</p> <p>I must be feeling militant today, as I've emailed the coroner in question, expressing regret that a coroner might think that causing death whilst driving contrary to the Code remains "without fault".</p> <p>&lt;grrrr&gt;</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-66651 Mon, 23 Apr 2012 11:34:55 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 66651@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I would imagine that a background report to go with the sentencing revealed he's got a bit of 'history' of one criminal sort or another. But even so, it does seem wildliy out of proportion if you accept that killing someone with a car only warrants community service and a short ban.</p> <p>The other way of looking at it is that the car damage case has the correct sentence, and killign by driving penalties should be more harsh/stark/proportionate/reflective of the damage these cause. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-66648 Mon, 23 Apr 2012 11:31:28 +0000 crowriver 66648@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"three cars that were parked outside a police station."</p> <p>Ah well, they'll have had him "bang to rights" then. The Sheriff's attitude does seem harsh, mind you. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-66614 Mon, 23 Apr 2012 09:45:41 +0000 Min 66614@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Meanwhile if you cause any damage to any cars (three cars in fact) you can expect to go to jail and be refused bail as the dangerous criminal you are. Note there were no actual people in the cars at the time.</p> <p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-17788830" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-17788830</a></p> <p>It is not made clear how he is supposed to work to pay for the damage from prison. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-65254 Fri, 13 Apr 2012 14:46:07 +0000 Min 65254@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>No deaths or injuries in <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-17695429">this case</a> but still a staggeringly light sentence for someone who is clearly a complete psycho. And who will be back behind the wheel in 18 months. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-65051 Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:23:35 +0000 cb 65051@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> "Non drivers perhaps don't realise how a low sun can sometimes all but obliterate the view out the windscreen. "</p> <p>Surely the problem is that drivers don't realise or don't take appropriate action.<br /> "</p> <p>That certainly is a problem.<br /> Even if drivers do slow down/ take extra care, etc. the situation is still made more dangerous by a low sun and that is something that a cyclist or pedestrian might be unaware of. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-65045 Thu, 12 Apr 2012 12:49:47 +0000 crowriver 65045@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Unbelievable that the same guy has killed again. Needs a lifetime ban and some prison time. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-65042 Thu, 12 Apr 2012 12:28:40 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 65042@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I remember seeing that last year (it's taken a LONG time to charge him!) and thinking it was ridiculous. Once is careless etc etc etc. </p> <p>I think Insto pointed out on another thread - killing someone with a car or truck or whatever appears to be less serious, at the moment, than setting fire to a furniture store (I don't disagree with that sentence mind you). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-65040 Thu, 12 Apr 2012 12:16:02 +0000 custard 65040@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1319839/HGV-driver-bad-eyesight-killed-TV-producer-bicycle-fined-just-200.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1319839/HGV-driver-bad-eyesight-killed-TV-producer-bicycle-fined-just-200.html</a></p> <p>£200 fine</p> <p><a href="http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/lorry_driver_charged_with_97_year_old_marylebone_pensioner_s_death_1_1334175" rel="nofollow">http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/lorry_driver_charged_with_97_year_old_marylebone_pensioner_s_death_1_1334175</a></p> <p>what will he get this time?</p> <p>(saw this on another forum) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-64899 Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:51:19 +0000 Instography 64899@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The solution to it happening suddenly is to stop suddenly, for fear of hitting something while temporarily blinded.</p> <p>There's no questioning what happened or the guilt or innocence. Most of the people admitted what they had done and tried to find mitigation in some feeble excuse. It's well worth reading Martin Porter's blog because he locates the problem precisely - in the decision to charge what is manifestly dangerous as careless and the decision of judges to give the lowest sentence possible. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-64898 Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:49:00 +0000 Smudge 64898@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>What Min said, also, a decent driver, being aware of the low sun, would be extra catious when emerging from shadow, and anyone with any sort of commonsense would moderate their speed and/or clean their windscreen if unable to see what they were driving towards!<br /> That's a drivers observation not a cyclists btw!! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-64887 Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:08:58 +0000 Min 64887@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Without wishing to justify "battering on" when blinded, it can happen suddenly, such as when emerging from the shadow of a building (or a bus?). "</p> <p>Neither of the cases illustrated had any mention of emerging from the shadow of a building or bus. Both drivers clearly knew full well they could not see a thing, but just kept on driving anyway until they ran over and killed people. There is no way to justify that. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-64886 Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:03:35 +0000 chdot 64886@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>All answers are here -</p> <p>(not just cycling...) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-64884 Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:41:10 +0000 crowriver 64884@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Doh! I believe it may have been my dishonourable browser. Switched the spell check off... (blush). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-64883 Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:35:57 +0000 chdot 64883@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"with wee red wiggly pixelly lines underneath"</p> <p>Ah, so that won't be the BBPress spellcheck. </p> <p>"Sure its not your browser settings?"</p> <p>Worth a look... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-64882 Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:30:15 +0000 steveo 64882@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Sure its not your browser settings? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6075#post-64881 Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:26:56 +0000 crowriver 64881@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It flags up "honourable" and "favourite" with wee red wiggly pixelly lines underneath. For example. Let's try....colour, yep; flavour, yep; labour, no; savour; no, interesting. </p>