http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: So last night I was talking to two Dutch people about cycling... en Sat, 16 May 2026 07:31:57 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149&page=2#post-66070 Thu, 19 Apr 2012 10:56:06 +0000 chdot 66070@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> We have undertaken an initial feasibility study for routes between<br /> Loanhead and the Gilmerton area - part funded by Sustrans. We will look<br /> to take this design work further this year with a view to potential<br /> implementation in 2013-14.</p> <p>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149&page=2#post-66023 Thu, 19 Apr 2012 07:27:16 +0000 wee folding bike 66023@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I stay 1/4 of a mile from Route 75. North Lanarkshire just built a new primary school right on the route about a mile away. All the kids on this estate and the next one down the hill go to that school. There is no way for them to get from their house to the route so they have to use a circuitous and hilly route to school.</p> <p>I did tell Sustrans about this but the school is open now so I might tell them again. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149&page=2#post-66022 Thu, 19 Apr 2012 06:58:21 +0000 crowriver 66022@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"You guys are just getting it all wrong." </p> <p>Well, in fact the city council deserve some credit for employing Gehl architects to devise a future vision for the centre of Edinburgh which is actually quite radical. If you want to see a 'Copenhagenized' Edinburgh here's their study from February 2011:</p> <p><a href="http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/207/planning-policies/1096/public_realm/2" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/207/planning-policies/1096/public_realm/2</a></p> <p>The problem, as ever, will be implementation: how much of this vision will survive the timidity of officials, the conservatism of committees, the politicking, the posturing and populism that passes for political debate in this city?</p> <p>Here's the official implementation plan, timescale near the end:<br /> <a href="https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/31488/report-city_centre_and_princes_street_public_realm" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/31488/report-city_centre_and_princes_street_public_realm</a></p> <p>Note that 'Establish a network of cycle routes.' starts this year! However, will they all be as half arsed as the 'Quality Bike Corridor'? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149&page=2#post-66011 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:34:43 +0000 gembo 66011@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@ruggtomcat - true true. The paths are like the tram lines they don't move around, that was one reason given for why the tramlines got ripped up in 1959.</p> <p>I used to work in McDonald Rd and live in Balerno I was majorly spoiled for offroad commuting infrastructure - take the WoL Path hypotenuse or cycle the Trinity /Roseburn dog leg. My work then moved to Chesser but again I can use the WoL Path and bits of canal or the stenhouse cycle path. None of it perfect but for me quite good. I accept not everybody lives in my house or works at my work but I do sometimes detour to use the paths, perhaps I am non-quotidian? I also like to take massive detour when we drive from Edinburgh to Bedford via Glasgow and M74, M6 just to use the Birmingham Toll Road. Bizarrely, this journey takes same time as A1-M1 just uses more petrol. Sort of same as using the paths - you can use them to take you where you want to go [sometimes] it just takes more pedalling? Sometimes on the trinity path, flat, straight, empty with tail wind I could even manage 15mph without getting a nosebleed </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149&page=2#post-65899 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 12:20:13 +0000 ruggtomcat 65899@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>gembo, the network is quite good but its really only any use if you are a leisure cyclist or happen to live by one of the paths with your work at the other, as commuting infrastructure they are a joke. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149&page=2#post-65883 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:36:29 +0000 slowcoach 65883@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"From Sustrans -<br /> We then hope to work with CEC to get a route from there to at least Lasswade Road next year." <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2449#post-26051">posted one year ago</a>, so that should mean now?!<br /> This could be the time when budget details are being finalised, and there's a chance to bid for extra funds from Sustrans (eg Community Links Programme bids by mid-May) so City of Edinburgh might not have to put in much of it's 'own' money or any if they find other sources eg WREN. But in case they are not already working on this, maybe someone could contact CEC and give them some encouragement? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149&page=2#post-65866 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:30:47 +0000 Dave 65866@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yes, the fact that that path stops at the bypass is more or less what stopped us considering a move to Penicuik (we even had the house lined up). I tried riding through Straiton a few times at rush hour but it was a pain.</p> <p>I was going to put "so that's cost Midlothian our custom" (as upright local citizens and in terms of council tax / local spending) but then, that's just the problem - it's Edinburgh council that needs to complete the path and they've *retained* our spending by not doing so... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149&page=2#post-65865 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:27:33 +0000 chdot 65865@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Balerno, Penicuik, Dalkeith"</p> <p>Has to be admitted that these involve hills which <em>are</em> a deterent to a lot of people - not least because it would 'on the way home after a day's work'.</p> <p>ALSO CEC has a long standing policy of cross-border routes being low priority for spending 'cycle money' as 'not many people would use' - relative to spending on paths within the city. </p> <p>In the old days of Lothian Region this would have been less of an issue. </p> <p>Such things should now be of interest to SEStrans and Sustrans, but it's all about money/priorities and the old chicken and egg of 'well no-one cycles there' plus the 'conflict' between 'leisure' and 'transport'. </p> <p>Would be nice to get a decent leisure route to Midlothian. </p> <p><a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2449#post-26051">Midlothian has tarmacced to its border!</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149&page=2#post-65863 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:05:30 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 65863@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>What Dave said (and it's not often we'll agree... ;) ) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65862 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:46:06 +0000 Dave 65862@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"In the Netherlands, 35% of all journeys under 7.5 km are already by bicycle. Also, 15% of journeys between 7.5 km and 15 km take place by bike. For all distances over 15 km, the numbers drop to just 3% of journeys. "</p> <p>So, mostly shorter journeys. I wonder what the percentages are like in Scotland or even Edinburgh? I doubt anyone has any reliable figures, but I'd imagine none of the distances gets into double figure percentages at all... </em></p> <p>I don't really understand why we're convinced that the Dutch don't cycle long distances. Is the "problem" that there's such a huge amount of errand running by bike that /comparatively/ most Dutch bike journeys are short?</p> <p>15km is just under 10 miles, or 20 miles a day. That figure quoted above is saying that one in six people living in South Queensferry, Balerno, Penicuik, Dalkeith, Prestonpans or anywhere closer would be biking into central Edinburgh every day. </p> <p>That's a crushing amount of long distance riding compared with the tiny amount we do in the UK. We're distance amateurs! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65861 Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:35:54 +0000 cc 65861@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>and given the cycling rate there is 99.1% (or something of that order)</em></p> <p>ISTR the percentage of journeys made by bicycle varies from 65% (the highest in the world) in Groningen to something in the 20% range in some other not so lucky places. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65848 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 23:55:45 +0000 Instography 65848@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@crowriver. I should have data for Scotland on that. If I have time tomorrow ... I'll dig it out. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65847 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:59:38 +0000 chdot 65847@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"My reading of the situation in Amsterdam and Copenhagen is that there was support from the politicians which contributed to the necessary legislative and infrastructural contexts which makes these cities cycle friendly."</p> <p>In addition there were also pro-active officials who did things without direct encouragement from politicians and did more when no-one complained or politicians discovered that people liked the new infrastructure/approach. (20-30 years ago).</p> <p>In Edinburgh there have 'always' been fairly willing middle rank officials and (often) less enthusiastic senior officials dealing with bold or nervous or indifferent politicians.</p> <p>Certainly a lot depends on what happens at and after the election.</p> <p>I think it's safe to say that there will no longer be a LibDem/SNP coalition. I think an SNP /LibDem one is also unlikely.</p> <p>I'm confident that either Labour or SNP will get the most seats (it'll be close), but think it unlikely that <em>any</em> two parties (able to work together) would have an overall majority.</p> <p>We'll see!! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65846 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:40:11 +0000 gembo 65846@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>My reading of the situation in Amsterdam and Copenhagen is that there was support from the politicians which contributed to the necessary legislative and infrastructural contexts which makes these cities cycle friendly. We have a situation in Edinburgh prior to a local election where there is some money for change but it is unclear what the incoming administration will do. Preventing cars from entering the centre of the city currently seen as a vote loser. There is also a feint suggestion of an anti-cycling ethos. anth could maybe ask the Dutch drummers if such anti-cycling attitudes are prevalent in amsterdam. I imagine not.</p> <p>My view is that we will never have a similar scenario to Amsterdam or Copenhagen but that we can work with what we have e.g. Chance of more funding, the Lothian bus cycle friendly approach to build a stronger consensus / pro-cycling lobby. </p> <p>did the mostly Dutch man drive around Edinburgh conducting his study? Maybe they should get on to the north Edinburgh network of paths on bikes, these paths are quite good. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65844 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:25:26 +0000 Baldcyclist 65844@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> <em>What makes you say that? I don't think that can be true. For instance it's directly contradicted by David Hembrow when he points out how far rural children cycle to school.</em><br /> "</p> <p>Well...it is a little bit of a leap of faith, but the 'average' Dutch person cycles 2.5km per day (<a href="http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/734/cycling/cycling-rates-by-country/">http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/734/cycling/cycling-rates-by-country/</a>), and given the cycling rate there is 99.1% (or something of that order). Then it is reasonable to assume that lots of people are cycling short distances every day, that is not to say of course that 'some' people are cycling longer distances. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65843 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:20:05 +0000 crowriver 65843@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@cc, from the article you posted:</p> <p>"In the Netherlands, 35% of all journeys under 7.5 km are already by bicycle. Also, 15% of journeys between 7.5 km and 15 km take place by bike. For all distances over 15 km, the numbers drop to just 3% of journeys. "</p> <p>So, mostly shorter journeys. I wonder what the percentages are like in Scotland or even Edinburgh? I doubt anyone has any reliable figures, but I'd imagine none of the distances gets into double figure percentages at all... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65838 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:07:57 +0000 cc 65838@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>fine for pub talk, but sounds like just the sort of euro-put down that pushes everyone's buttons and raises everyone's hackles (to mix a few metaphors). Just as bad as the anti-cyclists from here who say 'we can never be like Amsterdam...' etc. </em></p> <p>To me it sounded like a well-argued and rational critique of Edinburgh cycling facilities, law and policies. What they say is absolutely right. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65837 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:02:10 +0000 cc 65837@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>One comment I would have is that although journey numbers are a lot, they seem to only cycle very short distances.</em></p> <p>What makes you say that? I don't think that can be true. For instance it's directly contradicted by David Hembrow when he points out <a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2009/09/school-cycling-route-from-village-into.html">how far rural children cycle to school</a>.</p> <p>And the Netherlands has many excellent <a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2010/12/sixteen-new-long-distance-cycle-routes.html">long distance cycle highways</a>. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65731 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 13:15:58 +0000 Uberuce 65731@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Chdot I missed this till today, but the shared-use sign by the strip you pictured has the lanes the wrong way round, which is the right way round for rumbles, but hey ho.</p> <p>For the college, would the the least car-ish be the Union, get off just before the back path into Hermiston Gait, then Cutlins Road, Bankhead Terrace, Bankhead Crossway, Stevenson? It's about a mile's detour, but other than that... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65730 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 13:15:37 +0000 SRD 65730@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"annoyed by a female cyclist cycling through the ASL and stopping across the pedestrian crossing" </p> <p>I always find it is blokes doing this to me. EXTREMELY annoying, especially as I almost always overtake them later (despite not being a very fast cyclist). Vaguely reassuring to hear that female cyclists do it too... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65729 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 13:15:32 +0000 steveo 65729@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yup, my policy on "off-road" cycle lanes is that if can't easily access it with the racer I don't use it. </p> <p>Generally that means riding past the mess at Broomhouse every morning because getting to it from my junction means turning left after the junction, do a U turn or going up on the pavement for a few meters and getting back off it at the end of guided bus lane means dropping down a kerb or riding on the pavement for a good few meters. I don't even use it if I'm going all the way to the Gyle. Total waste of space. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65728 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 13:14:16 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 65728@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>fine for pub talk, but sounds like just the sort of euro-put down that pushes everyone's buttons and raises everyone's hackles (to mix a few metaphors). Just as bad as the anti-cyclists from here who say 'we can never be like Amsterdam...' etc.</em>"</p> <p>It fitted with the context of the rest of the discussion, trust me. Wasn't a 'euro-put down in the Copenhagenise sense... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65727 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 13:10:08 +0000 twinspark 65727@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm a returning cyclist having previously used the North Edinburgh paths, path to Roseburn and the general roads 10 years or so ago.</p> <p>Twice now in the last few weeks I've had occasion to go along the Stenhouse path and both times I've thought "this can't be right". I get the impression that lip service is paid to providing cycling facilities across the city. Things are just not fully thought through. </p> <p>When designing the facilities (although I doubt they are designed!) I don't think anybody considers how a cyclist accesses and exits the facilities. I mean seriously do they expect somebody to dismount on the cycling side, to walk over the pedestrian side and then lower their bike onto the road and continue pedalling from there? Seriously!? Mind you as both a pedestrian and a motorist I think there is an awful lot of lack of thinking as to "where do we go from here" whilst navigating the various transport networks.</p> <p>The Dutch system is interesting but not utopian - although a lot better than here. I found it diconcerting driving in the Netherlands to have bikes shoot out of side exits, meander across onto the wrong side of the road (as carrying too much speed for the corner) before returning to the right side of the road.</p> <p>Oh yes almost got left hooked this morning by a car pulling alongside on the run up to a junction and then indicating left whilst still alongside me - unbelievable! In that respect the Dutch system is much much better.</p> <p>To redress the balance, having stopped in the ASL at the next junction I was annoyed by a female cyclist cycling through the ASL and stopping across the pedestrian crossing (at least they did stop for the red light!). Grrr! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65722 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 12:59:21 +0000 SRD 65722@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"You guys are just getting it all wrong."</p> <p>fine for pub talk, but sounds like just the sort of euro-put down that pushes everyone's buttons and raises everyone's hackles (to mix a few metaphors). Just as bad as the anti-cyclists from here who say 'we can never be like Amsterdam...' etc. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65718 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 12:51:55 +0000 Min 65718@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"ASLs<br /> Why would you want to put yourself directly in front of motorised traffic that is then going to go faster than you?"</em></p> <p>Because it is not the motorists passing you that are the problem, it is the ones turning left or right. If you are at the front then you stand a slightly greater chance of being able to get through the junction before someone drives over you.</p> <p>I also agree with others about the bus lanes - IMO they are the only thing that make cycling in Edinburgh bearable although of course when you get close to a junction drivers just swerve into you from the car lane. At least you don't constantly have them shaving past a few mm away up until that point.</p> <p><em>"In general they were incredibly scathing of Edinburgh Council's attempts to promote cycling (they knew about the 2020 target and so on) with the perfectly succinct line of "You guys are just getting it all wrong.""</em></p> <p>Yes, have to agree totally with that one! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65704 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:49:54 +0000 chdot 65704@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"contrary to common assumption (including mine several years ago), the canal is not a good route for a first cycle in Edinburgh!"</p> <p>Not as good as the other path networks which are wider and don't have narrow bridges. </p> <p>There are also more and more people using them these days. </p> <p>Not <em>too</em> bad mid-week/non commuting times... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65702 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:38:40 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 65702@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>I'd rather be in a bus lane (one that's in operation, that is) than mixing it with cement mixer lorries, skip lorries, and artics in the free-for-all lane</em>"</p> <p>Yeah, I mentioned that last night - the bus lanes are at least respected by motorists much more than the bike lanes! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65701 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:37:45 +0000 steveo 65701@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Mandatory enforced lanes would (have) to be respected. The question is where do you put them? Many roads with bus lanes are already too narrow and I'd argue (in Edinburgh) bus lanes are more important than cycle lanes, more people travel by bus than any other transport method even "we" get the bus on occasion. </p> <p>If the lane is to mandatory I'd also argue it must be wider than most of the existing infrastructure. Roads like the older part of Gorgie Road are so narrow at points there isn't the space for the current lanes to be effective never mind something of a comfortable width. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65700 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:34:18 +0000 chdot 65700@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Fail 2: The rumblestrips, talked about elsewhere, encourage cyclists onto the ped side and pram/wheelchair users vice versa.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/chdot/6938278528/"><img src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5341/6938278528_0429edf350.jpg"></a><br /> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/chdot/6938278528/">Wrong way round?</a></p> <p>Incidentally I was there because I was trying to find a 'good' route for a teenager to cycle to Stevenson College. </p> <p>Interesting day... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65699 Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:34:08 +0000 SRD 65699@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>'but were horrified by bikes and pedestrians having to mix,'</p> <p>contrary to common assumption (including mine several years ago), the canal is not a good route for a first cycle in Edinburgh! </p>