http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: #POP28 - so what do 'we' think? en Fri, 17 Apr 2026 08:23:05 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=4#post-72638 Tue, 29 May 2012 16:40:46 +0000 cb 72638@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>With reference to crowriver's posts <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&amp;page=2#post-67629">here</a> and <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&amp;page=2#post-67632">here</a> concerning various local cycling groups/campaigns I also noticed:</p> <p><a href="http://dunbarcycling.org.uk/about/">Dunbar Cycling Group</a></p> <p>(I had a feeling that someone [chdot?] had collated a list on a new thread, but I didn't seem to be able to find it) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=4#post-68072 Tue, 01 May 2012 09:42:26 +0000 Morningsider 68072@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Anth/SRD/Sally/Kaps etc - while I know nothing about website design, graphic design, social media and all the other stuff that made PoP a success, I think I can help with political strategy/public affairs type stuff. Let me know if you want to chat about this. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=4#post-68039 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:18:09 +0000 Colin 68039@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks to everyone involved in organising the event. It was great to be part of it. It certainly felt as though a big change was happening - I hope so.</p> <p>Cheers<br /> Colin </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=4#post-67986 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 19:16:47 +0000 sallyhinch 67986@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>OK, this is really just a placeholder while we figure out what we want to do - <a href="http://pedalonparliament.org/now-what/">http://pedalonparliament.org/now-what/</a></p> <p>much discussion going on at POP Towers, not that there is such a thing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=4#post-67977 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:28:06 +0000 chdot 67977@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Well that's a well considered and thoughtful piece.</p> <p>Evidence from the last couple of days on here is that people who normally think (and write) about 'cycling' are thinking/writing more - in more depth too!</p> <p>If some of the 3,000 who didn't think much about cycling until very recently start... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=4#post-67973 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:43:13 +0000 wingpig 67973@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>As a mass mobilisation, it worked. Hopefully lots of people were out on bikes who would otherwise not have been. Hopefully they'll use their bikes more often. Hopefully some of the people who turned up who usually use bikes but weren't into activism will be inspired to be more activistic. Hopefully some people who had hardly cycled before will go straight to the activism stage as they'll have a valuable insight into what was stopping them from cycling, if there was something stopping them from cycling other than just getting-round-to-it. Not-getting-round-to-it applies as much to writing-to-people-with-influence as it does to getting-out-on-the-bike, but POP's pepping-effect also applies to both. It was an unignorable event - even if relatively few councillors and members turned up their acknowledgement and participation will be extremely valuable when seeking to gain further acknowledgement and greater participation in the future. If it does happen in the future, hopefully some people will turn up to it on the grounds that they were annoyed at themselves for not turning up to it this time.</p> <p>I never got round to finishing a placardy-thing to wave around outside Holyrood but it was originally going to be the outline of a head, with the brain in cycling-permitted-sign blue, with a white bicycle-sign-style-bicycle in the middle. Had I had the time, it would have been accompanied by a box beneath (in a font as close to that used on road-signs as I could find) saying something along the lines of "some consideration, please" in the hope that 'consideration' would be considered in all its senses: we want drivers to consider us when driving, cyclists to cycle considerately, politicians to consider us when budgeting and (for some, most of all) planners to consider us when designing things for drivers (and pedestrians, and cyclists) to use with the budgets administered by the politicians. We want to be kept in mind, not hastily after-thunk or dismissively waved away towards a path which, whilst segregated from motor traffic, is not segregated from hazards and danger, or which simply concentrates all the mixing-with-traffic-related-risk previously stretched all the way along a busy road into the single point where the cyclist is abandoned when the facility ends without a though of how cyclists might safely re-join the road off which they were ushered/lured.</p> <p>We're lucky to have the parliament in Edinburgh and that #POP28 happened so close to our local council elections, but it was a countrywide thing, initiated by a resident of Glasgow, and anything happening in the future beneath the POP auspice deserves some Scotland-wide-ness. Whatever happens next under the banner is for the core group to decide, but in the meantime the attention attracted needs to be held and the enthusiasm harnessed needs to be directed wherever the owner of the enthusiasm feels most enthusiastic about directing it. I might have a closer look at what Spokes are up to, shall write to my local MSPs on the back of the event to ensure that they did notice it and shall be writing to whoever gets councillated on Thursday to check that active travel is on their agenda. I've been trying to devote as much runtime as possible to looking properly at the facilities we have versus the facilities we lack, as one thought I return to fairly frequently is how much stuff gets built seemingly without recourse to anyone who actually uses the roads, sometimes even in terms of motor vehicles as well as by cycle. Infrastructure-planning seems to be unaware of crowdsourcing; by the time consultations appear it's often too late to change the basic premise of a plan. Tweaks or polish can help a bit, but when you find yourself riding along the result and finding something mis-aligned by the odd metre or degree it suggests that more thought at the planning stage was required. When dealing with cycles and pedestrians a few decimetres here and there <em>matter</em> as humans operate at human scale.</p> <p>The human-scale thing (even though cycles easily enable almost anyone to effortlessly triple their speed) seems to be what's missing from a lot of things these days. Human speeds, human distances, human timescales (also encompassing the (often-forgetten?) idea that physically getting from one place to another place takes time) and even human budgets, at least at some levels of government. I don't doubt that some people with influence/money/road-planning skillz don't walk around enough or have otherwise recalibrated their brains to consider a forty-minute drive along a motorway to Glasgow or a fifty-minute flight to London more 'normal' than a five-minute walk to a shop, a half-hour walk into work or a two-hour saunter round some hills. Morningsider said something on one of the post-POP threads about getting councillors/politicians out and about on bikes or feet. +1. There's nothing like getting someone to experience something first-hand than getting them to experience something first-hand. Concerted action can be a powerful thing, but in the first few days post-PoP even just the concerted use of buzz and enthusiasm is not to be sniffed at. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=4#post-67972 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:41:51 +0000 minus six 67972@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Its the avoidance of the negative message, to concentrate on the health benefits of cycling, for fear of putting people off taking it up.</p> <p>The idea that we shouldn't discourage people from cycling by saying it's a hazardous activity in a dangerous environment.</p> <p>There's a place for a strictly pro-cycling message after the infrastructure is actually dealt with properly.</p> <p>Meantime, I don't care about avoidance of reinforcing the image of cycling as being hazardous. I don't care about all the people who already don't cycle for that reason.</p> <p>Its a nightmare out there. Let's shout loudly for the people who cycle in fear today, the people who have lost their lives already, and worry about not further upsetting others who don't yet cycle, later. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=4#post-67971 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:39:07 +0000 David Martin 67971@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Actually cycling isn't that dangerous. It has the perception of danger though, which is very intimidating for many. </p> <p>I'm quite thick skinned having learned my trade on the streets of Kingston in the 1980's, but many of my colleagues find the roads very intimidating, and the behaviour of a minority of 'lycra louts' and 'brakeless BMXers' does us no help in the general public perception. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=4#post-67970 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:35:41 +0000 ExcitableBoy 67970@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"EB - what did they say? would be very helpful to know!"</p> <p>Those that I asked it seemed to have been word of mouth, flyers and posters mainly, somebody mentioned facebook. A couple of people had heard at the last minute from Maureen Child's email that she sends to her constituents. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67969 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:31:15 +0000 Claggy Cog 67969@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@bax - the CTC is not a political organisation, and never was, therefore, of course, is going to take an apolitical stance. </p> <p>I am unclear what you mean by this part <em>we'd end up with being forced to avoid negative messages as typified by CTC's apolitical stance. </em>, what negative message does the CTC give out? </p> <p>I think if you're going to criticise the organisation then perhaps it would be more in line with it not getting involved enough. However, that said it is a "touring" club, or was at it's inception. Also it is dependent on membership participation and as such like other voluntary organisations is dependent on a few active/very active members doing a whole lot for those who prefer to pay the membership and not do a great deal else. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67966 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:25:09 +0000 crowriver 67966@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@bax, if you come out with "cycling is dangerous" you just play into the hands of the "cyclists shouldn't be on the road" brigade.</p> <p>Cycling does not generally represent a danger to other road users. Driving often does.<br /> Driving is dangerous to others; cycling can be hazardous when mixing with dangerous driving.</p> <p>For you, this may be splitting hairs. For me, it is turning the argument around and getting away from blaming the victims of other people's dangerous behaviours. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67964 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:12:31 +0000 minus six 67964@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You're splitting hairs, crowriver. </p> <p>We all know that the main danger is motorist behaviour. </p> <p>But that is specifically what makes cycling dangerous, for me. </p> <p>I don't cycle on pavements, and rarely use shared use paths.</p> <p>Its often dangerous on the road, and it shouldn't be. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67959 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:00:29 +0000 crowriver 67959@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Cycling *IS* dangerous in Scotland</em></p> <p>No. It can sometimes be hazardous, depending on the conditions and the behaviour of other road users. The main danger is represented by motor vehicles. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67958 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:00:09 +0000 fimm 67958@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm very sorry I missed it. The photos on Facebook/Flickr/here are very impressive. Hopefully I can come "next time", whatever "next time" might be. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67955 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:54:27 +0000 minus six 67955@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The idea of an annual event troubles me because it just becomes a "celebration of cycling in Scotland" which is all well and good but would be swiftly co-opted by the quangos etc and we'd end up with being forced to avoid negative messages as typified by CTC's apolitical stance. </p> <p>Cycling *IS* dangerous in Scotland (despite Mark Beamount regrettably quoted in the pre-PoP press apparently saying the opposite).</p> <p>Quarterly demo would be more like it, in my opinion. Keep the message to the forefront. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67954 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:53:41 +0000 crowriver 67954@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I wonder how many people listened to the speeches? My perception is, not very many. Most folk seemed to be happy to just sit in the sunshine.</p> <p>Is it a problem that not many people were listening?</em></p> <p>It was impossible to hear them unless you were very close. Impossible to get close due to big crowd around speakers. I had a kid to look out for, as did many others. </p> <p>Ultimately more important that folk were there. However a more powerful PA if there's a 'next time' may be an idea? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67953 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:50:01 +0000 Claggy Cog 67953@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@spyt - not even worth of dignifying that particular remark with a response IMO. You're dead, must have been your fault, not that you were killed or anything whilst out minding your own business. I wonder if this is what they think about murder/manslaughter victims? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67951 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:48:08 +0000 steveo 67951@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Must admit, I wasn't really listening by the time the politicians started I was trying to work out where the nearest bathroom was. For the record the Hollyrood tea shop has clean enough toilets just look foreign and you'll be fine not buying tea. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67950 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:45:11 +0000 cb 67950@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I wonder how many people listened to the speeches? My perception is, not very many. Most folk seemed to be happy to just sit in the sunshine.</p> <p>Is it a problem that not many people were listening?</p> <p>Or is it more important that they turned up? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67948 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:39:44 +0000 SRD 67948@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>EB - what did they say? would be very helpful to know! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67946 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:32:05 +0000 ExcitableBoy 67946@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>One thought I had about POP28 was, that of all the people I asked "how did you hear about POP" nobody said CCE forum. It feels like they are missing out, should we be doing more to encourage people to take a look and hopefully engage? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67855 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:35:12 +0000 spytfyre 67855@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>like: "Yes more needs to be done to improve cycling safety, but I'd start with the cyclists themselves. 3 Recent cycling fatalities. 2 Of which understand to have been the cyclists own fault." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67826 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:08:09 +0000 steveo 67826@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Can't wait for the comments from the muppets :D </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67822 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:03:50 +0000 RJ 67822@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Confirmation that the official figure was 2500:</p> <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/pedal-power-on-display-at-holyrood-1-2265376">http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/pedal-power-on-display-at-holyrood-1-2265376</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67814 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:55:57 +0000 kaputnik 67814@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Effectively POP was this month's Critical Mass </em></p> <p>Except CM don't seem to really have any objective/purpose beyond riding around and getting in the way a bit. PoP definitely had/has a purpose of mobilising cyclists to make a big statement / deliver a manifesto to change directly to elected representatives.</p> <p>I think that's what's missing from CM for a lot of people. We could ride around till we're blue in the face, but ultimately it's "boring" stuff like writing letters, lobbying and pressurising politicians that will make real chance. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67813 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:54:27 +0000 crowriver 67813@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Other viewpoints on Critical Mass are available:</p> <p><a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5377" rel="nofollow">http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5377</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67809 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:47:05 +0000 Dave 67809@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>CM has a bad image - I've never been, although I had a flatmate who used to go. Reports of trouble with the police, etc.</p> <p>How many kids are there at CM on an average month? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67807 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:39:58 +0000 crowriver 67807@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I don't see why we don't all just join in with the CM folks every month.</em></p> <p>Not alway possible. Effectively POP <u>was</u> this month's Critical Mass (officially the evening before, but it was raining, etc.). I don't often get the opportunity to go as I am usually working on a Friday, but May <em>should</em> be different. See you at the foot of the Mound at 5.30pm on 25 May then? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67803 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:27:09 +0000 Tom 67803@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>chdot: <em>"Before then, start a list - and a new thread..."</em></p> <p><a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6334">Done</a>.</p> <p>(chdot, you'll have to add your own ideas yourself! I'm not going to be the scribe) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6316&page=3#post-67788 Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:42:16 +0000 Claggy Cog 67788@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Tom, not so much joined up politics but more joined up utilities would be good. Often the newly resurfaced road is dug up a matter of weeks if not days after being laid for repairs of one kind or another. The companies are also not very good at leaving the road in an acceptable state thereafter. I did hear something about the utility companies do the best part of the job and leave the finishing off to the council, if this is the case, you would think with the years of practice they have they could get it right! </p>