CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: What should I do?

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: What should I do? http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: What should I do? en Wed, 03 Jun 2026 14:31:22 +0000 Instography on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357&page=2#post-68689 Thu, 03 May 2012 18:29:02 +0000 Instography 68689@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Ah, so the problem's with Cyclescheme. Presumably Evans is big enough to also do its own admin. It sounds like Cyclescheme has built a little money spinner on top of the basic C2W 'scam' with its extension fee and creaming 10% off the retailer. Personally, I don't need to pay anything more. My contract is to hire the bike for 5 years so after a year I'll have paid all I'm ever going to pay (and £600 for £1145 of stuff works out at a half price bike - OK, 52.4%). Sure, it's technically someone else's but it's in my garage and if my company goes bust they can come and get it. If that happens I'll have a lot more to worry about than my bike. Dave on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357&page=2#post-68589 Thu, 03 May 2012 12:31:18 +0000 Dave 68589@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @baldcyclist - the cost of extending the hire for SWMBO was still significant (it would be £50 even if you extended the hire right out to half a decade). But yeah, it obviously can be worked around if you don't mind riding a bike owned by someone else all that time, for a small saving. @insto - put yourself in the shopkeeper's shoes... whatever they sell you, they're only getting 90% of the label price. If I came into your shop and offered you either a voucher worth (1,145*0.9)=£1030 or said "here's £1030 cash", would you refuse the cash? (at this point, someone from the Bike Chain might be able to comment) Of course that doesn't apply to all C2W by any means, for instance Edinburgh Bike Co-op do their own in-house, so they don't lose anything to a middleman. Interestingly though, I believe they do support Cyclescheme vouchers, so anyone who fancies saving 10% off the cost of a bike should bear that in mind. crowriver on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357&page=2#post-68582 Thu, 03 May 2012 12:15:18 +0000 crowriver 68582@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ So you've actually paid £930 for a £900 bike (although that means you've had an interest-free loan for a £30 arrangement fee, good luck finding that on the high street) Not really. Simply apply for a new credit card: quite a few are offering interest free balance transfers for up to 18 months (plus transaction fee, usually 3 to 3.5%). Buy a new bike, accessories, etc. worth £900 on your old credit card. Simply transfer the balance to the new card, and a fee of £27-£31.50 will be added to your repayment balance. Repay the balance by standing order at £51.50 per month. Okay, no tax break. But the bike is yours, and you can do whatever the heck you want with it. Uberuce on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357&page=2#post-68564 Thu, 03 May 2012 10:42:13 +0000 Uberuce 68564@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ If I was the Illuminati I'd use my ebon influence to instigate a rental scheme where the tax deduction paid for monthly use of a commuter bike. I reckon the flaw with C2W is that it preaches to the converted. My sample size here is very small: a few colleagues, family members and the fella who runs the shop across the road from my flat, but all of them choked as I mentioned the minimum cost of a commuter worth riding is around £400 and geared bikes that are fun to ride don't start to come off the peg until twice that. I can't see any of them commiting to that cost, even delayed and at a discount, when they're worried that the'll last a week then find out that cycling isn't for them. Getting a month's riding in exchange the effort of filling out a form for your work's accountant looks like a much smaller hurdle to clear. Baldcyclist on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357&page=2#post-68563 Thu, 03 May 2012 10:38:30 +0000 Baldcyclist 68563@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " However, you also need to cough up at the end for the "fair market value" of the bike. There's a table for this - paying down a £1000 voucher over a year leaves you with a £250 liability at the end (2) " Not necessarily, you can 'hire' the bike for anything up to 3 years, so after a year when they ask you if you would like to take possession of the bike. You say "No thank you, I would like to 'hire' the bike from you for another 2 years please". Pay the minimal sum to extend the hire period, and after 3 years when the bike is worth nothing, you either pay that or give it back to them. wingpig on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357&page=2#post-68553 Thu, 03 May 2012 10:18:25 +0000 wingpig 68553@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ What's the wording on Cyclescheme regarding maintenance of THEIR bike, particularly the replacement of consumables like chains and cables and cassettes? Do you have to keep the original bits in case the bike has to be surrendered? Instography on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357&page=2#post-68549 Thu, 03 May 2012 10:14:04 +0000 Instography 68549@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It was late last year, admittedly, but I walked into Evans with a £1000 voucher and came out with a £1050 bike and a Tubus logo rack. I'll pay £600 for the voucher (if they ever take any money off me but that's another story) so £1,145 of stuff for £600. Maybe the schemes work differently and my employer is paying the Cyclescheme cut (or Evans are calculating that the volume of sales will more than make up for it). The residual value after a year only matters if you want to do another one. Otherwise, let it run for 3-4 years and the value is negligible. wingpig on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357&page=2#post-68543 Thu, 03 May 2012 09:43:15 +0000 wingpig 68543@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <blockquote>"...it would have been easier for the government to underwrite interest-free loans on commuter bikes or something."</blockquote> I don't know if it was government-subsidised or not but interest-free bicycle-cost loans is exactly what my current employer used to offer before C2W barged in. It simply consisted of an interest-free loan for that bike to be repaid through payroll deduction over the course of the year but had the advantage of being able to be applied to any bicycle shop prepared to issue a paper quote. Dave on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357&page=2#post-68540 Thu, 03 May 2012 09:28:37 +0000 Dave 68540@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @insto - it's been steadily eroded from that high ideal unfortunately. For instance, as of Jan this year, you have to add VAT at 20% to your salary sacrifice 'payments'. The face cost of the £1000 voucher is therefore £680 <a href="http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/employers/employer-updates/cyclescheme-hmrc-vat-update-faqs#faq2">(1)</a> However, you also need to cough up at the end for the "fair market value" of the bike. There's a table for this - paying down a £1000 voucher over a year leaves you with a £250 liability at the end <a href="http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/eim21667a.htm">(2)</a> So, we're up to £930 for a £1000 bike already. But wait - because CycleScheme take a 10% cut, any LBS which is not certifiably insane would be happy to give you the bike for £900 cash instead of £900 in fiddly paperwork. So you've actually paid £930 for a £900 bike (although that means you've had an interest-free loan for a £30 arrangement fee, good luck finding that on the high street) There are various dodges like extending the loan period until the bike has no intrinsic value, but that does mean technically the bike is someone else's property for half a decade (if they go bust, your bike becomes an asset of the administrators, and you probably won't be able to move jobs without settling up). I'm not down on C2W by any means, but there's no way that it gives "half price bikes" in a million years - even for higher rate payers. (There are issues with longer repayment periods in that if you leave half-way through, you then have to pay the balance on the bike after tax, but it still isn't yours and you'll have to find the 25% voucher cost to take possession, so it will be much more expensive than just buying the bike!) The whole thing is a bit daft. Given what it's become, it would have been easier for the government to underwrite interest-free loans on commuter bikes or something. Instography on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357&page=2#post-68539 Thu, 03 May 2012 09:26:28 +0000 Instography 68539@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Sure. I'm not saying it's the least fair thing in the world or a cause of widespread misery but it's an obvious, easily anticipated element of unfairness that stares straight out of the scheme as something that could have been avoided. The whole system of salary sacrifices accrues significant sums of money to higher rate tax payers, subsidised by basic rate taxpayers. The C2W subsidy is miniscule in the scheme of things but even so for a £1000 bike, the company director pays £600 and the office administrator pays £750. But the C2W scheme is small beer even in terms of salary sacrifices. Child care vouchers are much worse - a 40% discount on £243 of child care every month but only 25% if you're a basic rate tax payer. So, for the same childcare place a company director pays nearly £500 a year less than a school cleaner. chdot on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68532 Thu, 03 May 2012 08:53:52 +0000 chdot 68532@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "the highest subsidy goes to people who need it least" That is certainly true in terms of 'fairness', but there are many ways in which the tax system isn't fair. Most people don't think it's fair to reduce the top rate of tax - even if the Government turns out to be right about more money being raised from 'the rich' through other new taxes. It's perhaps not 'fair' that you can only take part if your employer is willing to do some paperwork - or are forced to buy a bike in a particular month for the convenience of the accounts department. It would be nice if the Government sent everyone a £100 bicycle voucher on their birthday - but that would be open to abuse. chdot on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68531 Thu, 03 May 2012 08:39:45 +0000 chdot 68531@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "It is a scam if you buy a MTB and then never use it to commute" Think we're in the realms of semantics here. That could be seen as abuse. It would be a scam if HMRC set the thing up knowing that would happen. Not sure scam is the right word, but in 'changing the way people travel' sense the subsidy for electric cars is worse. "good for putting many people on "decent" bikes and in that shown untold thousands the advantages of a reasonable quality bike" I think that is undoubtedly true. Maybe even people on here. It could be argued that subsidising people's £1,000 hobbies is 'unfair', but I think that this scheme has brought 'new' people into cycling - especially commuting. Some no longer drive to work (at least as often) and are very likely to be car owners/drivers and be part of the growing number not willing to tolerate the bully mentality of those drivers who still believe cyclists shouldn't be on the bit of road in front of them because they haven't paid anything towards it. Instography on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68530 Thu, 03 May 2012 08:34:18 +0000 Instography 68530@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Ah, no, it was gembo not smudge. Sorry both. OK, it's not a scam (in the sense that it perfectly legitimate under existing tax rules (as is Amazon's non-payment of corporation tax)) but even having availed myself of it to buy my fifth bike I still think it is a bit ridiculous that since the subsidy comes from your marginal tax rate, the highest subsidy goes to people who need it least. SRD on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68529 Thu, 03 May 2012 08:14:54 +0000 SRD 68529@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It is a scam if you buy a MTB and then walk to work, as a colleague of mine does. cc on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68528 Thu, 03 May 2012 08:01:50 +0000 cc 68528@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Not a scam, more a state subsidy for your bike. Which is a thoroughly good idea. gembo on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68525 Thu, 03 May 2012 06:49:14 +0000 gembo 68525@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I think the intention was to get people from car to bike. Largely used to buy bikes and must have increased bike use in some instances from zero to at least once? The principal use of the bike [dependent on interpretation] was to get you to work. What transpired was more of a perk. Not a scam, that is too hard. HMRC sniff out perks and adjust as they see fit. I hope the shady ex-colleague at Tom's work rejoined the union after she paid off her bike? Shady lady. Smudge on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68524 Thu, 03 May 2012 06:45:22 +0000 Smudge 68524@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Smudge is right, it was a scam. And now is only a scam, a tax dodge, over a longer period." What's really scary is that I don't remember saying that... old age doesn't come alone! :-o Scam is perhaps a little strong, it was a tax dodge, the sort of thing those set above us have long enjoyed, so I see no reason for anyone to feel guilt for using it. HRMC knew exactly what they were doing when they made the rules imho. Now it's less attractive but has nonetheless been extremely good for putting many people on "decent" bikes and in that shown untold thousands the advantages of a reasonable quality bike. chdot on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68514 Wed, 02 May 2012 23:38:20 +0000 chdot 68514@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Scam? All things are relative... When it all first began it was widely touted as 'half price bikes'. This was only the case if you were a high rate taxpayer. There was always the slightly worrying bit about your employer selling you the bike for its 'fair market value'. For some reason that was 'accepted' as 5%. This was so good that it was almost inevitable that HMRC would restrict it in some way. crowriver on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68513 Wed, 02 May 2012 23:35:11 +0000 crowriver 68513@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Smudge is right, it was a scam. And now is only a scam, a tax dodge, over a longer period. When I put it that way I'm ashamed of myself. Don't beat yourself up. C2W is a drop in the ocean compared to what company car drivers (used to?) get away with. wee folding bike on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68511 Wed, 02 May 2012 23:28:54 +0000 wee folding bike 68511@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Brompton. I used to cycle most places but the Brompton makes it even easier. You don't need to worry about leaving it outside the pictures or restaurant, you can stick it in the car if you need to, I can put two in the roof box. They're easy to take on holiday when you might not otherwise have a bike with you. As you may have seen on Saturday they are perfectly capable of hauling a couple of kids. The older CarryFreedom hitch even let the back wheel fold but I don't have that kind. They are also nice wee bikes to ride. I choose to use a Brompton even when I don't have to. Instography on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68508 Wed, 02 May 2012 23:17:28 +0000 Instography 68508@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Dave Was it not set up as a salary sacrifice? Mine is so I'm getting, in effect, a 40% discount because my gross earnings are reduced so I don't pay tax on that (George pays that bit of the bike). I'm paying 60% of the value of the bike over 12 months (interest free). Smudge is right, it was a scam. And now is only a scam, a tax dodge, over a longer period. When I put it that way I'm ashamed of myself. Tom on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68507 Wed, 02 May 2012 23:10:14 +0000 Tom 68507@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ gembo: "C2W was being exploited by shady n+1 types to acquire more and more bikes rather than getting drivers to switch to cycling" Ha! My colleague at my previous employer was featured in the C2W year 2 brochure; smily photo and caption. She found the money for the scheme by quitting the union and only ever used it to cycle to work once. recombodna: +1 for Specialized tyres, the Turbo Pro's are the most gripless tyres I've ever used in the wet. recombodna on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68506 Wed, 02 May 2012 23:08:09 +0000 recombodna 68506@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I've found specialized tyres to be mince in general. Have had 3 pairs crack and spilt in under a year. crowriver on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68505 Wed, 02 May 2012 22:52:05 +0000 crowriver 68505@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Has had various bits added*, but haven't had to replace anything except the chain** so far. Actually that's not true, had to replace the stock Specialized Nimbus tyres after just a year, as they suddenly kept getting p*******s shortly after doing Edinburgh-St Andrews. Schwalbe Marathon Pluses since then, still going strong, loads of tread left, same inner tubes for 2 years! Cannot recommend these tyres highly enough. Also replaced the standard bar grips with some fancier dual density locking ones. Just an upgrade really, the old ones were okay. kaputnik on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68496 Wed, 02 May 2012 22:22:09 +0000 kaputnik 68496@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I'm often only reminded that I have my dynamo and light on around town when I get a Warden Hodges-like "PUT THAT LIGHT OUT!" yell from someone. gembo on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68491 Wed, 02 May 2012 22:00:09 +0000 gembo 68491@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The council C2W scheme is better model, followed by some other employers. you get the same deal as before on the before tax saving. At the end of the 18 months when you have paid off the money you then stay in the scheme for a further five years. No payment but no further C2W deals. at the end of this period the bike is deemed to have no market value and you get it for nominal payment. Seems C2W was being exploited by shady n+1 types to acquire more and more bikes rather than getting drivers to switch to cycling. Well that is certainly how I used it. Darkerside on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68334 Wed, 02 May 2012 10:10:16 +0000 Darkerside 68334@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I'm also underwhelmed by how much I saved with Cyclescheme, but it did enable me to get a grands worth of bike at a time when I couldn't afford the lump sum, so it served its purpose. Another vote for just keep changing bits until bike nirvana is reached. Re drag on hub dynamos, road.cc reviewed the supernova one where you can turn the electric gubbins on and off, and suggested the drag was effectively unnoticable unless you're averaging out over a very long ride. Dave on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68325 Wed, 02 May 2012 09:50:01 +0000 Dave 68325@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The wife is currently finishing up C2W and, taking the fair market value repayment into account, she's pretty much paid the shop's cash price. I think there might be a small balance in her favour (on a £1000 voucher) but not enough that I personally would bother with the paperwork. Used to be that you paid gross + £5 against the exc. VAT price of the bike and that was it. Happy memories! Cyclescheme might not be representative of all C2W of course. cc on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68322 Wed, 02 May 2012 09:41:30 +0000 cc 68322@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ My Specialized was maybe 15 years old when one day the front forks snapped off while it was having tyre surgery. But I did weigh about 18 stone at the time. Uberuce on "What should I do?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6357#post-68315 Wed, 02 May 2012 09:26:12 +0000 Uberuce 68315@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I've ridden an SA drum brake bike a few times and was very impressed by them, and although I'm not so hugely fond of the treacle-bath effect of the 1976 bottle dynamo on my old iron horse, I do love the fact I can't forget them or run out of batteries. Dave managed to ride the Paper Bike around town for hours unaware that he had the hub dynamo on, so I guess they're a teeeny bit more efficient than my shiny old bottle. I'd say go for the dynamo/drum and if you've need of mixed-mode then bag the Brom on C2W.