http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Indicating / signalling en Wed, 13 May 2026 02:59:50 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=3#post-6110 Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:29:19 +0000 SRD 6110@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Get a <a href="http://myzigo.com/">zigo</a>, which is basically a pram attached (and detachable) from front of bike.</p> <p>UK supplier <a href="http://www.kidsandfamilycycles.co.uk/index.html">here</a> (although Chrome does not seem to like their site much) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=3#post-6109 Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:27:04 +0000 chdot 6109@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"People must've been thinking 'why is that eejit is pushing his pram in the cycle lane?!?!' "</p> <p>Don't think so - no-one seems to realise it's a <em>cycle</em> path!</p> <p>"Needless to say I felt a bit daft."</p> <p>Why - pram has wheels too! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=3#post-6097 Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:19:29 +0000 miggy_magic 6097@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The above post reminds me... A couple of weeks ago I was pushing my two kids in their pram - a big double buggy - right up Middle Meadow Walk and heading towards George IV bridge.</p> <p>As I crossed Teviot Place towards the little Starbucks on Forrest Road, rather than crossing all the way over to the pavement, I instinctively pushed the pram into the painted cycle lane. After about 10 yards I realised I was pushing a pram, not cycling my bike!</p> <p>People must've been thinking 'why is that eejit is pushing his pram in the cycle lane?!?!' Needless to say I felt a bit daft. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=3#post-6096 Fri, 23 Apr 2010 14:21:26 +0000 chdot 6096@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thread mentioned by <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0074hk7">Tom Morton</a></p> <p>A listener apparently 'absentmindedly' signalled and the realised she wasn't on her bike... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=3#post-5757 Sat, 17 Apr 2010 09:21:25 +0000 chdot 5757@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/sprocket-pocket-ipad-turn-signal-for-cyclists" rel="nofollow">http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/sprocket-pocket-ipad-turn-signal-for-cyclists</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=3#post-5743 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 17:05:12 +0000 Kim 5743@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Dave <blockquote>"However, I don't quite follow your point as a whole. The reason people find it dodgy that drivers are advised not to signal is precisely because so many (all?) drivers sometimes (often/always?) fall below the standards we might wish for."</blockquote></p> <p>The point you are missing is that Advanced are taught to <em>look</em> and then decide if a sign is need. Sadly many driver don't understand the need to <em>look</em>! They think it enough to merely signal, this is one of the areas where a law of strict liability would help, as a drivers could no longer get a way with saying they did see the cyclist, as they would still be liable.</p> <p><blockquote>"Here's the nub: I don't want bus drivers to be squinting in their mirrors trying to judge how fast I'm going to decide whether or not to indicate before pulling out."</blockquote></p> <p>The point is if you are there then the driver not pull out, again it is this point about observation.</p> <p><blockquote>"I once asked an advanced driving instructor whether he would support manually-activated brake lights which the driver could switch on "only if it was of benefit to another road user" at which point he changed the subject!"</blockquote></p> <p>When driving in day light, I find switching on the lights has the desired effect.</p> <p><blockquote>"Just because it's taught doesn't make it uncontroversial. Take for example the way that so many people ride around the very edge of roundabouts* - but it's not called the zone of death for nothing."</blockquote></p> <p>The problem here is that most people aren't <em>taught</em> how to cycle on roundabouts. The key here is to ride in a primary position. The advice in the HC of <em>walking your cycle round on the pavement or verge</em> is actually quite dangerous.</p> <p>Maybe when cycle starts to be taken seriously as a means of transport by the politicians, we will see the HC being rewritten in a sensible manor, but I don't see it happening any time soon. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=3#post-5741 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:22:00 +0000 chdot 5741@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Yeah, it's from the RVLR (whichever year) which is the authority behind those bits of "MUST" in the HC."</p> <p>Only at night though(?)</p> <p>Am I making up the bit about age of bike? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5740 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:17:12 +0000 Dave 5740@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yeah, it's from the RVLR (whichever year) which is the authority behind those bits of "MUST" in the HC. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5737 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:00:19 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 5737@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>'ang on, I'll dig it out - yip, tis the law. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5736 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:58:38 +0000 chdot 5736@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"but I could still be done for not having pedal reflectors."</p> <p>But COULD you?</p> <p>Is this the law?</p> <p>Is it one which 'only applies to bikes made after 19??'? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5735 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:43:42 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 5735@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Of course if you ride with clipless pedals (as I do) then it's likely you won't even have pedal reflectors. I always thought it was an odd legal requirement given I've got a VERY bright light on the back, a smaller backup one flashing, and reflective strips all over the back of my jacket (and even a flashing light in that if I really wanted) - but I could still be done for not having pedal reflectors. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5733 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:39:01 +0000 chdot 5733@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"If you ride with panniers your pedal reflectors are not "plainly visible from the rear", being obscured for much of the time and so you could get a ticket."</p> <p>This is back to the difference between the HC and <em>the law</em>. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5732 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:10:57 +0000 Dave 5732@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>It is not controversial, it is the standard teaching on Advanced Driving courses, you have to remember the driver have a Legal duty to drive with due care and attention, and drive reasonable consideration for other road users see HC Rule 144. Just because the law is not being enforced doesn't mean that it is not there.</em></p> <p>Just because it's taught doesn't make it uncontroversial. Take for example the way that so many people ride around the very edge of roundabouts* - but it's not called the zone of death for nothing.</p> <p>However, I don't quite follow your point as a whole. The reason people find it dodgy that drivers are advised not to signal is precisely because so many (all?) drivers sometimes (often/always?) fall below the standards we might wish for.</p> <p>Here's the nub: I don't want bus drivers to be squinting in their mirrors trying to judge how fast I'm going to decide whether or not to indicate before pulling out. I just want them to indicate before doing so (and let me worry about whether they're indicating unnecessarily soon!). </p> <p>I once asked an advanced driving instructor whether he would support manually-activated brake lights which the driver could switch on "only if it was of benefit to another road user" at which point he changed the subject!</p> <p>* this is a bad example because the HC actually warns you <em>against</em> doing so, but seems widely misunderstood.</p> <p><em>As for "taking your hands off the bars while manouvreing" HC Rule 66 keep both hands on the handlebars except when signalling or changing gear. In general the HC is very badly written where it deals directly with cyclist and is badly in need of revision.</em></p> <p>Quite, as we can well imagine a situation where cyclists must choose between signalling and retaining good control of their bike (if you don't think this is common, we can hold a trial on the cobbles next to our office, which are bad enough that I go around three sides of a square to avoid them).</p> <p>The HC is pretty rubbish. If you ride with panniers your pedal reflectors are not "plainly visible from the rear", being obscured for much of the time and so you could get a ticket. Irrespective of how much better your lights might be than the "scrape the barrel" standard. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5728 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:47:36 +0000 chdot 5728@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"In general the HC is very badly written where it deals directly with cyclist and is badly in need of revision."</p> <p>Thought that was done a couple of years ago with a (successful) campaign to stop some of the proposals. </p> <p>(I'm not disagreeing that it could be better!) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5727 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:36:18 +0000 Kim 5727@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Dave "If there is no-one around to see your signal, then there is no need to signal</p> <p>This is the controversial bit, as it seems to imply that the driver should indicate only if they have noticed someone who could benefit (but as we know, the average motorist can barely handle the contents of their own lane, never mind what is all around them). "</p> <p>It is not controversial, it is the standard teaching on Advanced Driving courses, you have to remember the driver have a Legal duty to drive with <em>due care and attention</em>, and <em>drive reasonable consideration for other road users</em> see <a href="http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070309">HC Rule 144</a>. Just because the law is not being enforced doesn't mean that it is not there.</p> <p>As for "taking your hands off the bars while manouvreing" <a href="http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069837">HC Rule 66</a> <em>keep both hands on the handlebars except when signalling or changing gear</em>. In general the HC is very badly written where it deals directly with cyclist and is badly in need of revision. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5726 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:35:22 +0000 chdot 5726@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"So, I guess the answer is that pedestrians do not have right of way, unless they are already in the road"</p> <p>Well yes, but some drivers still think you shouldn't cross if it slows them down!</p> <p>It's certainly not like (some parts) of US (and presumably Canada) where you can just stand on the edge of the pavement and cars stop! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5725 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:30:36 +0000 SRD 5725@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>We've spent 15 years trying to figure out if pedestrians have have right of way or not. </p> <p>Coming from Canada, where pedestrians always have right of way, as long as they are at a junction, this has always seemed a bit odd. </p> <p>But, have now looked at online highway code (thanks for the link Kim) which says "If you have started crossing and traffic wants to turn into the road, you have priority and they should give way" (see also 170). So, I guess the answer is that pedestrians do not have right of way, unless they are already in the road. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5724 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:25:40 +0000 chdot 5724@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Yes, I'd forgotten that"</p> <p>most people do...</p> <p>The trouble is it's not easy to deal with (especially turning right)- having to stop in the road you are turning from. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5723 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:19:09 +0000 Cyclingmollie 5723@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"They have right of way (though most don't realise - or expect traffic to stop), so signalling might suggest that you intend to 'go through them'(?)"<br /> Yes, I'd forgotten that. Oops. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5721 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:16:38 +0000 chdot 5721@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"unless it means putting someone else at greater risk e.g. turning left into a side street with pedestrians trying to cross"</p> <p>They have right of way (though most don't realise - or expect traffic to stop), so signalling might suggest that you intend to 'go through them'(?) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5720 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:11:57 +0000 Cyclingmollie 5720@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>On good roads I would agree but add cobbles, gravel, potholes etc. and I would hesitate to brake, indicate and turn at the same time. I've certainly stopped the traffic coming off while trying to do just that and not at speed either. Like you say Smudge, if there's no-one around why do it. I was asked that by the examiner when I was sitting my mini-bus driving test at CEC so I guess it must be considered good practice somewhere. Personally, I try to signal as much as I can but if something has to give then I'll not signal if it means putting myself at risk unless it means putting someone else at greater risk e.g. turning left into a side street with pedestrians trying to cross. That would be pretty nasty. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5714 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:43:39 +0000 SRD 5714@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>At the risk of generating great venom from the speedsters, I am inclined to say that if you can't do all three, you're probably travelling too fast for your bike/terrain. </p> <p>Personally, I do them in sequence rather than all at the same time! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5710 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:18:37 +0000 Cyclingmollie 5710@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Signal, brake, maneouvre. Choose any two. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5704 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 09:02:21 +0000 Dave 5704@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>If there is no-one around to see your signal, then there is no need to signal</em></p> <p>This is the controversial bit, as it seems to imply that the driver should indicate only if they have noticed someone who could benefit (but as we know, the average motorist can barely handle the contents of their own lane, never mind what is all around them). </p> <p>However in practice I don't disagree as I follow this exactly when I'm driving myself (bit hypocritical otherwise!)</p> <p>We should bear in mind, of course, that motorists can signal without having to hang one arm out of the window. If they signalled as we do, I think a lot of road safety advise would change to signal only when necessary, rather than merely because it is "courteous or polite". </p> <p>It is interesting that the government's own cycle training manual advises not signalling in certain circumstances (but relevantly, signalling left in particular). The HC wouldn't seem to agree - although I can't recall if it says anything about taking your hands off the bars while manouvreing? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5702 Fri, 16 Apr 2010 00:03:26 +0000 Smudge 5702@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I can't speak for the IAM but when I took my training signalling was <em>not</em> optional! </p> <p>If there is no-one around to see your signal, then there is no need to signal, if there are other road users to see the signal then it is courteous and sensible to signal clearly your intentions using standard signals, and it is what is instructed in the highway code.</p> <p>QED, signal, use the standard signals, and you are communicating your intentions to other road users in the most efficient manner. Anything else at best runs the risk of confusing other road users or at worst causing them to mis-interpret your signal in a dangerous way. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5607 Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:52:59 +0000 Dave 5607@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You should have rung your bell? ;-)</p> <p>Sometimes people just end up getting hit. When I was a student I ended up bloody in the road after I hit a child who stepped out in front of me. Naturally I didn't get much sympathy even though I was basically toddling along minding my own business in Patrick's Sq when it happened (not very fast in those days!).</p> <p>The kid jumped up, shouted, "sorry mister" and scarpered, leaving me to nurse a chipped elbow (the most painful thing I've ever experienced!).</p> <p>Probably if it happened now the EEN would enjoy reporting the speeding pavement cyclist who jumped red lights, scythed down children (while screaming "get out of the way, I'm not stopping"). And I didn't have a headcam to prove otherwise back then either ;-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5605 Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:05:44 +0000 SRD 5605@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I try and pre-empt the lights changing"</p> <p>It really is the only thing to do. I try not to go on red, but right after. </p> <p>At the not dissimilar intersection of Tarvit/Home - going across to Gilmour Place, there is really no time lag between the lights going red, and a green to cross. </p> <p>Had someone walk out in front of me on the Tarvit rd side (i had green light) last week, dodged them (just) and then while I was in the intersection it went yellow. Then had 5 or 6 people try to cross on the Gilmour place side (they did not have a green man). I barrelled into the middle of them (shouting, slamming brakes on), and ended up hitting one. Not nice and they claimed it was my fault, even though they were crossing against the light??!! Not sure what else I could have done. If I stopped in the middle of Home St, I would have been hit by cars going North-South, not that there was time to think about that. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5603 Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:48:53 +0000 chdot 5603@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I try and pre-empt the lights changing"</p> <p>Yep my strategy there (and places like turning right Bridges/Chambers St.)</p> <p>Probably illegal, 'gives cyclists a bad name' - seems safer, but maybe means 'I'm in too much of a hurry to be "normal traffic"'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5576 Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:48:08 +0000 Gresham Flyer 5576@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A signal I got wrong on my cycling proficiency test was "What does it mean when a driver at a junction places the palm of the left hand flat against their windscreen?"<br /> I said "Saying hello". I was quite young.</p> <p>Holy Corner is a nightmare, I try and pre-empt the lights changing (more when the green man goes off than when the traffic light changes) and get ahead of the traffic before they lift the clutch (keeping an eye out for vehicles jumping the red light Mornigside-Bruntsfield way of course). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=645&page=2#post-5536 Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:16:03 +0000 cb 5536@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"but the oncoming traffic (turning right down Morningside rd) is always edging forward"</p> <p>This is an unusual junction in that it's fairly easy for the first couple of cars in the queue to turn right before the traffic approaching from the opposite side gets onto the junction.<br /> I tend to think that some drivers get a bit twitchy here if they think that someone in front of them (e.g. a cyclist) might stop them from doing this. However I usually find that the cars don't catch me until almost the Churhhill Theatre. </p>