CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: One of the 57%

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: One of the 57% http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: One of the 57% en Wed, 24 Jun 2026 04:32:45 +0000 chdot on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=3#post-71638 Wed, 23 May 2012 09:19:28 +0000 chdot 71638@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " Isn't the Times owned by a Mr R Murdoch (deemed unfit to hold office?)? " Interesting philosophical question. Perhaps he is the current questionable custodian of a battered British institution that used to be 'the paper of record' and, more recently, because of a butterfly wing type occurance (knocking down of one of its journalists) has instigated an important campaign/debate on cycling. Rabid Hamster on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=3#post-71633 Wed, 23 May 2012 09:06:52 +0000 Rabid Hamster 71633@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Gembo: know what you mean! Butterflies through windows and that. So what you are saying that RLJ'ing is actually a component of Chaos Theory? Seem to remember Norman Wisdom and Benny Hill filming this sort of thing 40yrs ago (showing my age now!). I believe the Exxon Valdez Alaska oil spill was originally caused by an errant student RLJ'ng at Broughton Street in 1928... @chdot: Isn't the Times owned by a Mr R Murdoch (deemed unfit to hold office?)? gembo on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71571 Tue, 22 May 2012 20:17:52 +0000 gembo 71571@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Broke my mudguard today as I was avoiding a woman on a horse using a mobile phone whilst the horse did what it liked - it was eating the grass by the path side but was not behaving itself. I went up the other path to avoid this scenario and at the top a stick wedged into the mudguard. I went to cheery bill the ironmonger in Balerno and bought the wrong sized cable ties to fix it wee folding bike on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71568 Tue, 22 May 2012 19:38:09 +0000 wee folding bike 71568@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Saw a driving instructor using his mobile phone to text or email this afternoon. I thought the qualified driver was in charge of the car so I wonder if he should have been doing that. Dave on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71564 Tue, 22 May 2012 18:31:55 +0000 Dave 71564@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ What's more, 93% of cyclists agree with me*. * sample size, systemic bias and many other caveats apply! :D Dave on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71563 Tue, 22 May 2012 18:30:20 +0000 Dave 71563@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "How can you moan about a black cabbie for doing a rapid U-turn in front of you on a trunk road, if you've just bust a red light or 'hopped' the junction via the green man? 'nuff said!" I know that this is a stereotypical driver being "quoted" there and not necessarily anyone's actual point of view. So I have no compunction about saying: "How can you moan about being raped, if you've just illegally copied a CD to your MP3 player? It's almost like you think people don't have justification to commit any crime if you have ever committed one yourself!" If that seems like nonsense, that's because it is. All of it. gembo on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71548 Tue, 22 May 2012 16:32:46 +0000 gembo 71548@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @rabid hamster RLJING risky and annoying. Hopping the green man naughty and annoying. What I do everyday on Gorgie road is dismount at a pedestrian crossing and push my bike over to avoid horrendous right turn up fords road. I understand from Cyclecraft that this is acceptable? If so why do so many drivers get annoyed about that? Min on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71411 Tue, 22 May 2012 09:40:08 +0000 Min 71411@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "How can you moan about a black cabbie for doing a rapid U-turn in front of you on a trunk road, if you've just bust a red light or 'hopped' the junction via the green man? 'nuff said!" Yeah, but if you haven't then you can. chdot on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71404 Tue, 22 May 2012 09:01:22 +0000 chdot 71404@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " Only 2 per cent of cyclists regularly jump lights. 31 per cent of drivers admit to stopping illegally over cycle-only advanced stop boxes at traffic lights. Drivers face a £60 fine and three points on their licence for doing so. Of pedestrians injured by red-light jumping, 4 per cent are hurt by cyclists, 71 per cent by cars. In 2009, no pedestrians were killed by cyclists, while 426 were killed by motor vehicles. 55 per cent of drivers acknowledge that the biggest improvement to safety would come from an improvement in driving near cyclists, rather than a change in the behaviour of cyclists. " <a href="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3414912.ece" rel="nofollow">http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3414912.ece</a> Rabid Hamster on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71400 Tue, 22 May 2012 08:37:36 +0000 Rabid Hamster 71400@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ ps as the income comes in from the fines, more cameras and better admin will come in, as the GLCS is supposed to be self-financing, but you've got to start somewhere! Sorry, going off topic! We do need better designed infrastructure to improve our behaviour, and we do need to earn respect from the public and drivers! I'm off to 'tailgate' a passing university student on the Pleasance now as they can get through any colour of light from what I've seen! Rabid Hamster on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71399 Tue, 22 May 2012 08:30:47 +0000 Rabid Hamster 71399@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Currently 5 cameras rotating round 10 sites! See up thread as Morningsider says... the best (possibly only) thing we can do is lead by example. Stop at red, indicate etc. The more cyclists that do this, the more likely it is seen as the norm . As I'm 'low' down the cycling food chain, I see a lot of the incursions and misdemeanours cyclists do, and some are amazingly living on the edge of extinction! Darwin's Theory comes to mind now. Many drivers see this and do use the mantra that defines cyclists as a self-deleting species! How can you moan about a black cabbie for doing a rapid U-turn in front of you on a trunk road, if you've just bust a red light or 'hopped' the junction via the green man? 'nuff said! Roibeard on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71397 Tue, 22 May 2012 08:16:43 +0000 Roibeard 71397@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I think there are fewer cameras than sites, and these are rotated round as necessary - cf other safety cameras. Robert Dave on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71393 Tue, 22 May 2012 07:14:35 +0000 Dave 71393@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ A lot of people yesterday were driving past the camera in the bus lane on Leith St. There was no camera though - just the mast. Same at Cameron Toll. Have they pulled them after all the outcry from drivers who're used to using the bus lanes? chdot on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71390 Mon, 21 May 2012 22:26:20 +0000 chdot 71390@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Have the polis started fining people for RLJING yet?" Probably (well I think they are supposed to be by now. "Has worked for the bus lanes" That's not actually the police. gembo on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71389 Mon, 21 May 2012 22:21:20 +0000 gembo 71389@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Have the polis started fining people for RLJING yet? Has worked for the bus lanes Dave on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71385 Mon, 21 May 2012 22:10:45 +0000 Dave 71385@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I personally think that the 'get your own house in order first' argument does pander to this strange belief amongst drivers that they can drive dangerously around me because other cyclists flout the rules of the road. \o/ Morningsider on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71353 Mon, 21 May 2012 16:43:54 +0000 Morningsider 71353@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I'm convinced the best (possibly only) thing we can do is lead by example. Stop at red, indicate etc. The more cyclists that do this, the more likely it is seen as the norm and then taken up by even more cyclists. Honestly, if someone is already cycling through a red light - something they know is anti-social, illegal and could (technically) land them a fine - then a mild talking to by a fellow cyclist is unlikely to act as a deterant. I can't see the link bewteen cyclist behaviour and the provision of cycle facilities myself. chdot on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71346 Mon, 21 May 2012 16:36:30 +0000 chdot 71346@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Some of that may make sense" Yeah, and I've forgotten what we are not agreeing about. Wilmington's Cow on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71340 Mon, 21 May 2012 16:21:24 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 71340@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Or you can get involved, and try in your limited capacity as an individual or group to try and modify the bad behaviour, and in the process hopefully increase the odds (even slightly) of getting what you want in the first place" As chdot pointed out upthread, sometimes what you want in the first place is what will then stop the bad behaviour, so it's difficult to stop it happening before having the proper facilities in place. Nowt in black and white in this (and the goalposts have moved on the definition of responsibility). Is this responsibility only limited to cycling? Or to every campaigning group? By your rationale above (which isn't a bad analogy) the youth club can only get built when you've stopped the youths drinking (so they only get the thing that might stop them drinking after you've got them to stop drinking without it; cyclists can only get the things that might stop them indulging in bad behaviour after they've stopped indulging in bad behaviour without it). And we are, here, pandering to a generally perceived view of how cyclists act (yes, it does happen, but we know Joe Public's perception is even greater). Do gay rights protesters only get equal rights to marriage and so on when they've stamped out the abuse of young boys? Is this last analogy really any different? Some cyclists/gay men indulge in bad activities; a vocal minority of Joe Public think it's a majority; Cyclists/gay men wants changes that make their lives easier/safer. We're not just kicking here at the bad behaviour, but way beyond that into public perception. I can guarantee if we stopped every single cyclist running a red light it would take years for the 'all cyclists run red lights' shout to become a murmur, but instead they'd just complain about pavement riding or not wearing helmets (how on earth do we address that one???) or not paying road tax (ditto). So many of the things that cyclists do wrong in the public eyes are not actually illegal, but would still go towards a 'get your house in order' mentality before 'we' can get 'our' cycle lanes. I'm rambling. Some of that may make sense. chdot on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71339 Mon, 21 May 2012 16:19:10 +0000 chdot 71339@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " Or you can get involved, and try in your limited capacity as an individual or group to try and modify the bad behaviour, and in the process hopefully increase the odds (even slightly) of getting what you want in the first place. " That's different from 'washing our hands' or 'condoning'. There are people on here who have ridden through red lights (that only change when they detect a car) in the middle of the night - I'm not going to tut tut at them for that. If I'm walking on a pavement (happens occasionally) and someone cycles towards me (has happened), I'm not going to do a citizen's arrest but I'm not going to meekly move aside either. I think 'we' on CCE - in small, individual, jointly, severally, ways - do some of the things in the first paragraph. As do many more who have never heard of CCE. Min on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71338 Mon, 21 May 2012 16:04:11 +0000 Min 71338@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ You (they?) could try wondering why they aren't using it? In the case of cycle so-called facilities it is because they are almost universally crap and put us in even more danger than before. At best they are merely inconvenient. Most of us here are already "getting involved" through the medium of campaigning for decent facilities that are actually useful and not just a bit of the pavement painted off to get us out of drivers way peppered with lots of "cyclists dismount" signs. Baldcyclist on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71335 Mon, 21 May 2012 15:56:44 +0000 Baldcyclist 71335@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Take responsibility = provide education, try to amend behaviour. Why should we build a 'youf' club when no-one uses it, and they are more interested in drinking in the park outside? or Why should we build 'separate cycling facilities' when none of them will use it, and they are more interested in weaving through traffic and jumping red lights? You can argue in either case that the poor behaviour is nothing to do with me, and it's up to the Government/Police/anyone else but me to sort it, I wan't my club/path! Or you can get involved, and try in your limited capacity as an individual or group to try and modify the bad behaviour, and in the process hopefully increase the odds (even slightly) of getting what you want in the first place. chdot on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71333 Mon, 21 May 2012 15:49:57 +0000 chdot 71333@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Surely if we are going to lobby, campaign, and demand as a group, then we should be prepared to take responsibility for our actions, as a group too?" It's not that simple. Lobbying/campaigning/demanding as individuals, groups or ad-hoc groupings doesn't depend on a pre-agreed set of rules/bargaining points - 'you do this for us and we'll agree not to do x'. Far less to attempt any sort of 'agreement in advance'. As CCE shows, there is a broad - but not universal - agreement that 'we' (as individuals) should abide by laws. That's not the same as taking responsibility for those who don't - apologetically or 'agreeing' to try to change their behaviour. And that's not just because there is no expectation that 'motorists' will try to address the behaviour of fellow 'transgressors'. One real problem that people on bikes have is that some drivers are unwilling to concede that, in many cases, bike riders are being legal, following the highway code etc. and have the right to do much of what they are doing - cycling on the left of traffic, dodging potholes etc. If some people choose to ignore any of this, or (in their minds) 'overcompensate' by stopping/starting over the white line etc. that's not my problem. I'm happy to campaign for things to be 'better' (undefined) so that fewer people feel less 'forced' to do things they may or may not think are 'wrong'. If people get fined equally (as law breakers, not numerically) for ASL/Z offences I won't complain. I don't mind if people get fined for riding on pavements where legally, and reasonably, pedestrians have the right to a bit of 'peace'. I DO mind when people suggest that cyclists all/always cycle on the pavement. I'm NOT even blaming the minority who do for that. There is a strange culture of blaming a minority and ignoring the (often worse) actions of a large number - speeding, motorised mobile using, overtaking and hooking etc. Instography on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71332 Mon, 21 May 2012 15:29:20 +0000 Instography 71332@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ What does it mean to 'take responsibility'? How could we take responsibility? There's no reason why cyclists, or groups of cyclists, can't have a reasonable expectation (which is what it is, not a demand) that cycling should be safe without also becoming the roving policemen of other cyclists. It's not an argument I've ever seen directed at the AA or the motoring lobby. Wilmington's Cow on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71331 Mon, 21 May 2012 15:28:50 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 71331@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "... we should be prepared to take responsibility for our actions, as a group too..." ... is different from... "That doesn't however mean that I feel I need to take responsibility for others actions, but I do take some responsibility in trying to change the actions of others" Which actually means we're in agreement (the second statement). As my article on red lights makes clear, I do take on some of the latter responsibility, while not feeling the need to take the first responsibility. Baldcyclist on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71330 Mon, 21 May 2012 15:22:46 +0000 Baldcyclist 71330@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Surely if we are going to lobby, campaign, and demand as a group, then we should be prepared to take responsibility for our actions, as a group too? Instography on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71329 Mon, 21 May 2012 15:22:27 +0000 Instography 71329@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I'll watch the video later but assuming that it shows lots of cyclists going through a red light, I'll just say that that has nothing to do with my argument about IAM. I wasn't making an argument that cyclists never go through red lights or that it's OK for cyclists to go through red lights. My argument was that IAM had distorted their data and misrepresented the prevalence of cyclists going through red lights. Min on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71323 Mon, 21 May 2012 14:51:12 +0000 Min 71323@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It is ridiculous, except that the hypocrite in me would love to see the "get our own house in order" rule applied to motorists. No new roads, bridges, roundabouts, motorways, dual carriageways or car parks until every single last one of you obeys the speed limit, gets out of operational bus lanes, stops using your mobile phone while driving, stops jumping red lights, stops drink driving. The list is endless. Oh and no complaining about pedestrians or cyclists who are free to do what they want until you all behave because you have to "get your own house in order first". It would be brilliant! Wilmington's Cow on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71318 Mon, 21 May 2012 14:16:25 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 71318@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Just in case there's any dubiety on where I stand here, I do think that cycling has a problem with people doing the wrong thing; and I do think that these actions should be stopped (such as has been written, by me, on <a href="http://www.citycycling.co.uk/Issue7/Red.html">red light jumping</a>); but I don't think that precludes me from complaining about the actions of other road users when that puts me, or others, at risk. Wilmington's Cow on "One of the 57%" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6556&page=2#post-71317 Mon, 21 May 2012 14:13:45 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 71317@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ But does it mean you're not allowed to complain about the actions of (some etc etc etc.) drivers?