http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: BBC1 this morning - IAM poll en Sun, 31 May 2026 22:32:41 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70771 Wed, 16 May 2012 19:55:26 +0000 chdot 70771@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Bike Hub (@BikeHub)</p> <p>16/05/2012 15:07</p> <p>Bicycle Association boss slams @IAMgroup for "bogus" red light press release. BikeBiz: <a href="http://bit.ly/JqJdz1" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/JqJdz1</a></p> <p>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70641 Wed, 16 May 2012 11:05:03 +0000 Instography 70641@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@crowriver<br /> But wouldn't they also feel they had to condemn the cyclists? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70603 Wed, 16 May 2012 09:39:17 +0000 crowriver 70603@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>(I'll leave the bemused reader to decipher the acronyms).</em></p> <p>No need. Just substitute CTC, BC and Spokes? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70597 Wed, 16 May 2012 08:54:12 +0000 Instography 70597@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Dave<br /> You could always set up an account on twitter (@alt.spin) and just tweet new headlines for the same stories. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70594 Wed, 16 May 2012 08:40:19 +0000 Dave 70594@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I often wish I was a spin doctor.</p> <p>"In urban areas, which contain schools and hospitals, fewer cyclists have ever jumped a red light than motorists have significantly exceeded the speed limit."</p> <p>Tada.</p> <p>The funny thing is, because of the way spin and media works, if we ever do hit a tipping point we will actually start to see stories like this:</p> <p>"The RCC, CA and IAC have condemned the government's crackdown on otherwise law-abiding cyclists who are caught out by confusing and inconsistent junction layouts" (I'll leave the bemused reader to decipher the acronyms). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70588 Wed, 16 May 2012 07:58:46 +0000 chdot 70588@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>TheCyclingSolicitor (@OliverJeffcott)</p> <p>15/05/2012 16:24</p> <p>I'm not a fan but it's important to consider why cyclists jump red lights (without the usual knee-jerk views) tinyurl.com/cpq4hq8<br /> "<br /> "Cyclists who jump red lights are also breaking the law, but 43 per cent of cyclists who do so said they would be less likely to jump red lights if Advanced Stop Lines were more strongly enforced"</p> <p><a href="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3414065.ece" rel="nofollow">http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3414065.ece</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70574 Wed, 16 May 2012 00:06:07 +0000 crowriver 70574@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>They now call it SMIDGAS, "Sorry Mate I Don't Give A Sh*t", as they seem convinced that drivers often do see them, but decide to pull out anyway, cos they are in a tin box and the rider will always come off 2nd best in any collision :/</em></p> <p>That's definitely what some (many) drivers do to cyclists. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70568 Tue, 15 May 2012 22:39:37 +0000 freewhwheelin 70568@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>MMMhh SMIDSY, well I know some motoryclists who are sick of this too, often it seems to be used as an "excuse". They now call it SMIDGAS, "Sorry Mate I Don't Give A Sh*t", as they seem convinced that drivers often do see them, but decide to pull out anyway, cos they are in a tin box and the rider will always come off 2nd best in any collision :/ </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70563 Tue, 15 May 2012 21:55:07 +0000 DdF 70563@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Seems very likely that 50% or more of cyclists have occasionally crossed a red light. Around 50% of motorists in an RAC 2007 survey admitted to sometimes 'significantly' exceeding speed limits in built-up areas. Not that one justifies the other, but one certainly sounds more dangerous to other people than does the other!! Loads of other interesting motorist attitudes if anyone really wants to trawl through loads of RAC surveys.<br /> <a href="http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/documents/advice/considerate-cycling/"><a href="http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/documents/advice/considerate-cycling/" rel="nofollow">http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/documents/advice/considerate-cycling/</a><br /> </a><br /> <a href="http://www.rac.co.uk/news-advice/car-knowledge/motoring-reports/">http://www.rac.co.uk/news-advice/car-knowledge/motoring-reports/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70538 Tue, 15 May 2012 16:26:49 +0000 lastuphill 70538@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The thing with motorists, is how many of them are aware they have ran a red light. I would imagine that the vast majority of motorists observed by cyclists going through red lights are not even aware that they have done so. </p> <p>Therefore, this poll means nothing, as there are no doubt a lot more cyclists who will admit to running a red light, often on purpose, than there will be motorists who will be conscious of having done so. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70535 Tue, 15 May 2012 15:50:39 +0000 Min 70535@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Anth <em>"Not disputing anything, just that people aren't reading my posts :P"</em></p> <p>I did read them I just didn't understand what you meant. I think you were mentioning amber lights because you were saying that a lot of drivers drive through amber lights but not so many drive through red. We can agree to disagree on that one! </p> <p>Insto <em>They absolutely knew. Neil Greig, their head of policy and research is very aware of what constitutes reliable research.<br /> </em><br /> To be fair, they are only doing what every other group who has ever made a press release or every other media outline who has ever made a headline - they made it sensationalist and very little to do with the content of the article to get people reading it. After all "IAM call for junctions to be redesigned to make them safer for cyclists" would never get on the BBC would it? I am not trying to justify it by the way, the last thing we need is another "debate" over how we are all scum who deserve to die. This is just how "it" is and I have to say, I hate "it". And this goes for all stupid headlines that do a lot to inflame angry types but little to actually tell a story. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70534 Tue, 15 May 2012 15:43:28 +0000 Instography 70534@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@crowriver<br /> They absolutely knew. <a href="http://www.iam.org.uk/about-us/iam-key-personnel/17-about-us/iam-key-personnel/67-meet-neil-greig-our-director-of-research-and-policy">Neil Greig</a>, their head of policy and research is very aware of what constitutes reliable research. He's been involved in too many research projects run by the Scottish Government, academics and Road Safety Scotland. And while they might try that line of it not being 'research', sitting it under a heading of 'Policy and Research' says otherwise.</p> <p>And it's obviously biased in its presentation. Using the active and present "jump" to describe a question asked in the past tense, 'have you ever' is plainly misleading.</p> <p>Having said that, some of their research is very good indeed. They just need to give up on the PR puff generated with Survey Monkey. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70531 Tue, 15 May 2012 15:11:28 +0000 earthowned 70531@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Kaputnik - what a fantastic design - I love it! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70529 Tue, 15 May 2012 14:17:52 +0000 crowriver 70529@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Well, I think that IAM has been naive</em></p> <p>No, I think they knew exactly what they were doing.</p> <p>Only when journalists themselves complained did they think they'd better give the <em>appearance</em> of being even-handed.</p> <p>The survey itself was neutral in the questions asked. The press release deliberately skewed the results to make a criticism of cyclists, and to make a point, which is basically "Hey, don't blame us 'normally law abiding' motorists (except 32% of us), it's the road's fault!" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70527 Tue, 15 May 2012 14:14:09 +0000 kaputnik 70527@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaputniq/7202659742/"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7075/7202659742_7b30a47ef6.jpg"></a><br /> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaputniq/7202659742/">I am an?</a> by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/people/kaputniq/">the Magnificent Octopus</a>, on Flickr </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70526 Tue, 15 May 2012 14:13:24 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 70526@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Still here, but not 'adding' omre cos I'm not explaining myself well.</p> <p>"<em>What I am more concerned about is the press reaction to this type of press release. It will surely do nothing other than alienate the general populace from cycling</em>"</p> <p>Yep, which is what I said hours ago ;)</p> <p>"<em>The IAM are are even-handed organisation, and it's really the headline that annoys me more, simply because, as Bike Biz points out, the red tops will go nuts for this. 57% = 'all'.</em>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70525 Tue, 15 May 2012 14:05:33 +0000 amir 70525@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Anth - if you are still there.</p> <p>Of course both motorists and cyclists run red lights. I don't know the true proportion but my feeling is that it depends on location. Cyclist red light jumping seems more common in the city centre whereas the outskirts and outside I have rarely seen it happening (less lights=less frustration? or less of a certain type of cyclist? or ....). </p> <p>What I am more concerned about is the press reaction to this type of press release. It will surely do nothing other than alienate the general populace from cycling. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70523 Tue, 15 May 2012 13:58:13 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 70523@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Not disputing anything, just that people aren't reading my posts :P</p> <p>I'm giving this one up. I'm not saying no drivers ever run red lights; nor am I saying they all do. Cyclists and drivers both run red lights; they do so in different ways; both are wrong. But I do believe a higher percentage of cyclists run red lights than drivers.</p> <p>That's all. I'm dropping out now. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70522 Tue, 15 May 2012 13:57:36 +0000 amir 70522@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Reply send to IAM:</p> <p>"Well, I think that IAM has been naive thinking that such a news release would be interpreted by all media outlets in a fair and level headed way. Some know that there is money to be made in writing negatively about out-groups such as cyclists.</p> <p>See <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2144698/Memo-cyclists-rules-apply-too.html?ito=feeds-newsxml" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2144698/Memo-cyclists-rules-apply-too.html?ito=feeds-newsxml</a></p> <p>As such I think that the news release may well have the opposite effect from that desired. And in the end it is simply not based on credible evidence and merely supports a commonly held view that cyclists break rules. This will not encourage people to cycle. Your "surveys" and other evidence also points equally to drivers breaking rules. But the consequences are much graver. Isn't this why IAM exists? If only more motorists were members." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70521 Tue, 15 May 2012 13:56:53 +0000 amir 70521@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A quick search found this:</p> <p>Memo to cyclists: the rules apply to you, too</p> <p>Read more if you want your blood pressure to rise: <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2144698/Memo-cyclists-rules-apply-too.html#ixzz1uwSM9Uyc" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2144698/Memo-cyclists-rules-apply-too.html#ixzz1uwSM9Uyc</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70520 Tue, 15 May 2012 13:54:01 +0000 Min 70520@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"Which is what the question should have asked, but if the question is do you ever go through a red light then the answer is legitimately 'no'."</em></p> <p>I don't understand what you are disputing here. The question asked was not about ambers but about reds. You seem to be saying that no driver ever goes through a red light. I say it is extremely common and I often see at least three or four going through the red light at each phase at some junctions. Earthowned's video is a typical example. </p> <p>For this reason I believe the number of drivers given by the IAM poll to be extremely low although that could be because a lot of the respondants are likely to be IAM members are and therefore driving properly to start with. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557&page=2#post-70516 Tue, 15 May 2012 13:29:52 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 70516@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>Yes but speeding up when the light turns red and driving through it is still red light running. I see it all the time.</em>"</p> <p>Indeed, but I said speeding up on <em>amber</em>.</p> <p>"<em>And although speeding up through amber isn't jumping a red light, it is "failure to stop" which is what is being signalled...</em>"</p> <p>Which is what the question should have asked, but if the question is do you ever go through a <em>red</em> light then the answer is legitimately 'no'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557#post-70513 Tue, 15 May 2012 13:18:02 +0000 crowriver 70513@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@earthowned, I cross that junction as a pedestrian or cyclist every day. My son's primary school is on the left of that junction, and it's on my cycle route to work.</p> <p>The traffic lights are a real issue there: pedestrian phase across the second set of lights is designed to maximise traffic flow, with the left hand pedestrian phase much shorter. So we often get stranded on the traffic island while crossing the road. The alternative is to cross in one go at the lights you were stopped at, but then one has to cross the side street (Abbey Street) with no pedestrian signal and a risk of a right or left hook from a car turning into the street.</p> <p>I have written to the council about this junction (twice, once exactly a year ago, once two weeks ago), and the response dismissed my safety concerns, stating that the crossings are designed according to the guidelines. I shall be requesting a copy of those guidelines next! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557#post-70508 Tue, 15 May 2012 12:56:39 +0000 fimm 70508@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm one of the 57% - because I answered "yes" to the option about going through on amber, in the sense of a thought process along the lines of "oh that light is changing, oh do I have time to stop, oops I didn't stop but I think I probably could have..." (lets draw the line under going through on red due to not being awake yet...) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557#post-70507 Tue, 15 May 2012 12:54:46 +0000 PS 70507@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"And the spin put on it by the IAM guy, just to reiterate, was that cyclists ran red light because they didn't feel safe at junctions and so therefore junctions should be redesigned."</em></p> <p>[Devil's advocate] But that's not the only reason. I had the pleasure of a couple of mid-morning cycles through town last week - basically up the Bridges, round Potterow, down George IV Bridge, The Mound and Hanover St.<br /> On both trips I must have seen 5 or 6 cyclists roll through red lights where there wasn't the slightest risk to their safety of waiting on red - no HGVs, buses, queues of taxis.<br /> In fact, I would suggest that they substantially reduced their safety by entering crossroads on a red. Unwillingness to wait or be held up was their key driver.[/Devil's advocate] </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557#post-70505 Tue, 15 May 2012 12:44:32 +0000 Baldcyclist 70505@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>What are the chances of 4 cyclists taking the same day off of the bike, and finding themselves at the same junction at the same time in their cars? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557#post-70499 Tue, 15 May 2012 12:25:17 +0000 Roibeard 70499@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@earthowned - that's a pretty impressive haul. 4 RLJ, including a vehicle with an instructor in charge!</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557#post-70496 Tue, 15 May 2012 12:06:06 +0000 steveo 70496@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>More people should've read slashdot in the day (still should). They always have little pools with a disclaimer on the bottom which should apply to any online survey!.</p> <p><em>This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane.</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557#post-70495 Tue, 15 May 2012 12:00:58 +0000 earthowned 70495@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's ironic that in the last few days I've seen so many blatant examples of red light jumping from cars, for example:</p> <p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehhKtJLjKdo">Red Light Jumping</a></p> <p>Mind you poor junction design and traffic light placement can account for a lot of infringements. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6557#post-70493 Tue, 15 May 2012 11:50:22 +0000 amir 70493@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>TBH I don't think any reputable organisation should ever use online polls to drive a story. As I said to them, there are much better sources of information. </p>