http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Cycling is risky en Fri, 15 May 2026 10:05:58 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063&page=2#post-74622 Fri, 15 Jun 2012 08:41:11 +0000 alibali 74622@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Stiltskin, if you really want to know, visit <a href="http://understandinguncertainty.org/micromorts">Understanding Uncertainty</a>.</p> <p>Your homework is estimate Instography's age if Instography's risk of staying in bed is higher than travelling 100mi in a car.</p> <p>You'll also notice that the risk of travelling 100mi on a bike is lower than walking that far but 10x the risk in a car.</p> <p>Caveat: These are the risks associated with a given activity and do not take account of other factors such as health-through-fitness etc. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063&page=2#post-74619 Fri, 15 Jun 2012 06:04:29 +0000 Dave 74619@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I took out a "returner" last weekend on her bike...you do not realise, if you are a regular cyclist, just how hard it is, having a certain level of fitness.</em></p> <p>Although "Ride like your Gran" day sounds tongue-in-cheek, of course it has quite a genuine and powerful message. Everyone should try riding with a speed cap of 10mph to help understand why normal people struggle to ride in town and get put off so easily.</p> <p>There are places I wouldn't ride if I wasn't a thrusting young thing, cycling city or not. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063&page=2#post-74609 Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:26:40 +0000 Instography 74609@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Stay in bed? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063&page=2#post-74606 Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:14:24 +0000 stiltskin 74606@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>But what do you usually do during the day which carries a greater risk? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063&page=2#post-74576 Thu, 14 Jun 2012 16:30:20 +0000 Instography 74576@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>In Scotland the rate of drivers being killed or seriously injured, in 2010, was 0.03 per million vehicle kilometres. One death or serious injury every 33.4 million kilometres. That tells you about the risk to drivers, which I accept isn't the same as "it rarely poses a real threat to others" but it's very low. Even if I included all the cyclists and pedestrians killed or seriously injured into the calculation, assuming them to have been involved with a car, the total risk would be 0.05 per million vehicle kilometres. One death or serious injury every 20 million kilometres. </p> <p>Of course, even though an event is rare among participants, if the participation rate is high and the accumulated exposure is high there might still be a large absolute number of events.</p> <p>I'm not saying that the risk is low enough and I don't forget that each death and serious injury statistic is a real person but still, low risk. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063&page=2#post-74568 Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:45:07 +0000 Claggy Cog 74568@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I took out a "returner" last weekend on her bike...you do not realise, if you are a regular cyclist, just how hard it is, having a certain level of fitness. She struggled and had to get off on the first incline (uphill), as well as being a bit frightened going downhill and on the brakes constantly, let alone taking hands off handlebars to indicate. This was without taking her out on the road to get to cyclepaths. She was also inclined to hang onto the handlebars like grim death and was complaining of sore wrists after only a short time out on the bike. Plus the bike was from a large automotive/bike supplier, whose staff are not reknown for knowing how to set up a bike properly, and I would suggest that the bike was also rather heavy it being a hybrid with suspension, all making cycling rather harder than absolutely necessary...She was also inclined to hug the pavement/gutter and this was probably the hardest thing for her to stop doing, simply because she was afraid of traffic/cars, and was worried about the drivers getting annoyed. One particular car driver we encountered was a classic believer in cyclists belong in the gutter, tooting at us, and waving for us to move over, indicating we were taking up too much of the road, riding two abreast, in her opinion, we were turning left and she went right...she would not have done the same to a learner driver I don't think...perhaps returners/beginner cyclists should wear L-plates and a P-plate when they have done some cycle training!! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063&page=2#post-74565 Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:35:24 +0000 Claggy Cog 74565@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Cycling is risky, being a pedestrian is risky, being a motorist is risky, all for the fact that you are mixing media of transport, who go at different speeds, and have different levels of vulnerability. Peds and cyclists are more at risk from large objects, weighing tons possibly, which are going fast(er) and should they hit you being one of the former you are likely to come off the worse(t). However @chdot as you so rightly state your environment is in a state of flux and constantly shifting and changing as a cyclist at a faster pace than a pedestrian, and you can have a catastrophic mechanical failure just to add to that equation. Things you can do to ensure that you are safer is to regularly check you bike (the "M" check done very regularly), fix things that need fixing or replace worn components/parts that may fail (all identifiable if you do your regular bike check)and don't leave it if there is a problem. Be alert and looking ahead in traffic and try to second-guess what someone might do, i.e. pedestrian step off/fall off kerb, doors opening by looking to see if people are in parked vehicles etc. All things @chdot suggested. Try to avoid really awful roads if you know they are bad and that the surfaces are absolutely lethal (like outside EBC and Gillespie's - has this been reported do you think because I rate this as possibly one of THE worst stretches of road in Edinburgh) on Whitehouse Loan. Be happy to impart your knowledge of such things to others if they are receptive, we can all learn from one another. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063&page=2#post-74542 Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:03:50 +0000 chdot 74542@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"SINCE - I stopped trying to race everyone all the time"</p> <p>I think this is particularly true (for some people) at commute time. </p> <p>I have always considered that I am racing the traffic - keeping up with it, if possible, as it's generally safer - but more in the sense of being quicker point to point. </p> <p>This notion was easier before there were quite so many bikes on the streets of Edinburgh!</p> <p>No doubt I'll be accused of ageist genderist stereotyping, but I think all this applies (more) to young(ish) males... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063&page=2#post-74537 Thu, 14 Jun 2012 13:50:10 +0000 ARobComp 74537@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I in general find that the cycling I do every day is the most relaxing part of my day - SINCE - I stopped trying to race everyone all the time. That is part of my journey through the various stages of Cycling maturity. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063&page=2#post-74320 Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:27:59 +0000 Baldcyclist 74320@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"How many people have to be killed and maimed before it is classified as "dangerous"?"</p> <p>By that reckoning cycling must be risky? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063&page=2#post-74315 Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:10:24 +0000 Smudge 74315@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>Driving is not dangerous, in that it rarely poses a real (as opposed to psychological/territorial) threat to others...</em>"<br /> "<em>If you look at any of the data, it's true.<br /> </em>"</p> <p>So if it's not dangerous, how come apparently according to numbers quoted previously on this forum between 1998 and 2008, 425 people were killed on the roads in Lothian and Borders (sorry can't remember the source).<br /> How many people have to be killed and maimed before it is classified as "dangerous"? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063&page=2#post-74286 Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:23:30 +0000 Instography 74286@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I would. If you look at any of the data, it's true. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063&page=2#post-74277 Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:57:52 +0000 mgj 74277@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Hmm, changing a couple of words above gives; </p> <p>"Driving is not dangerous, in that it rarely poses a real (as opposed to psychological/territorial) threat to others (though many non-drivers percieve 'fast' drivers to be a danger to others, close passes, etc.). "</p> <p>Would we agree with that? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063&page=2#post-74222 Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:50:02 +0000 wee folding bike 74222@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Cycling is one of the most relaxed things I do during my day. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74157 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:47:13 +0000 Greenroofer 74157@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>When I first came to Edinburgh after 10 years of city cycling in Oxford, I thought nothing of entering the city centre bearpit, and used to enjoy a rush-hour trip down Lothian Road and Queen Street.</p> <p>Then I stopped cycling regularly, and rapidly got (a) unfit and (b) frightened.</p> <p>It's taken me several years to get my confidence and fitness back.</p> <p>To wingpig's point, it's easy for regular cyclists to forget just how hard work it is and how frightening and risky it feels for the inexperienced. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74149 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:18:25 +0000 wingpig 74149@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote><em>"I think it's also clear that the risk(s) can/should reduce with experience - and probably training as some people have suggested."</em></blockquote></p> <p>Every time I set off from some lights it occurs to me that whilst I can happily lift my foot from the ground and push away, glancing about and frowning in whichever direction requires it there will be people who have to push away along the ground with their feet and/or look down to the pedal to get their foot in place and/or really have to strain to get rolling and/or can't push hard on the pedals without accidentally pulling the handlebars from side to side and/or are sitting way too far to the left so that by the time they're rolling smoothly they then have to slow down again in order to wait for a gap to get past the car parked in their lane across the junction which they didn't anticipate. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74139 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:47:32 +0000 alanr 74139@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I have a thirty-minute daily urban run and it certainly requires high concentration to avoid trouble. Course, it really takes your mind off work. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74138 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:47:10 +0000 chdot 74138@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"And perception of risk is what may stop people from trying cycling. What does everyone think?"</p> <p>I think that's very much the case which is why I started this thread to move on from the 'cycling is dangerous' argument (a public rather than CCE one).</p> <p>I think it's also clear that the risk(s) can/should reduce with experience - and probably training as some people have suggested. </p> <p>But, clearly, there are real risks that are completely outwith our control!</p> <p>I think it's also the case for (some) novices that there are extra issues relating to fitness and stamina - and perhaps the 'right' bike - or at least one set-up properly. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74136 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:43:26 +0000 minus six 74136@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Road cycling appears risky because it requires a high level of awareness and assertiveness in an intensely intimidatory environment, and many people are uncomfortable maintaining that, day in day out.</p> <p>I get weary of the adrenaline production on a one hour commute, and while the level of motorist risk taking is probably much the same as its ever been, the ongoing antagonism certainly takes its toll. </p> <p>If my commute was a twenty minute urban traverse, i'd probably find it easier to remain a bit more zen about the whole risk thing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74132 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:37:39 +0000 alanr 74132@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If I may, I'd like to suggest that cycling is not a *very* high risk sport, but as almost all my cycling gets done in the "central rush hour bearpit" (well described, I feel) that it does - at times - feel like a risk sport. It certainly feels more risky than car-driving in the same environment, probably because I feel protected by my one-ton metal shield, and because I experience less harassment in my car - I could certainly have done with one of those last night (see "today's rubbish driving" if you don't know). I feel that it's about risk-perception, rather than real risk. And perception of risk is what may stop people from trying cycling. What does everyone think? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74130 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:36:37 +0000 chdot 74130@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"So do I, but it is useless. learner drivers clearly no longer told to 'straighten wheel' after parking."</p> <p>Actually I was meaning the stationary queue not the parked ones, but I see what you're meaning! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74129 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:34:16 +0000 chdot 74129@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> David Brennan (@magnatom)</p> <p>12/06/2012 21:08</p> <p>Another Inconvenient (Cycling) Truth http://www.magnatom.net/2012/06/further-inconvinient-cycling-truth.html Cycling isn't dangerous at all...is it?</p> <p>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74128 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:29:18 +0000 chdot 74128@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@gembo - I think you'll find that the planet he comes from genders are reversed... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74126 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:19:13 +0000 gembo 74126@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>*like a bearded lady? What odds would you give me über uncle (iPad auto typing I felt inclined to leave) if I wanted to bet you that you were male? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74125 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:10:19 +0000 Uberuce 74125@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's a bafflement, of such magnitude that I wonder if I'm secretly an alien observer whose memory has been blanked to help him/her* interact with the natives more naturally for data gathering purposes, to me that the consensus seems to be that driving is something that happens to you, as opposed to being a freely made choice that creates a hazard.</p> <p>The resulting transfer of responsibility, from the creator of the hazard to those put at risk by it, is crackers mad. </p> <p>But it's the way things currently are here(maybe strict liability would be a major help?) so we cyclists are expected to manage the hazard other people inflict on us. </p> <p>It can be done to the point that the risk it presents becomes vanishingly small, thankyouInsto, but that's a skill that took me weeks or months to master.</p> <p>Good infrastructure and responsible driver attitude make the level of competence you require much more accessible. </p> <p>If you cast your minds back to POP28, we temporarily made awesomesauce infrastructure by dint of making the road a carpet of cyclists, and the cops dripping off every junction meant the skill required was "I'm three and can ride my balance bike". </p> <p>On PAE29, Pedal Around Edinburgh 29th et al, you had to have your ninja back on. </p> <p>I wouldn't recommend to a novice that they try the central rush hour bearpit.</p> <p>*since I've not to the best of my knowledge reproduced, I can't exclude the possibility I'm female. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74123 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:04:08 +0000 gembo 74123@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>tom I could phone you at your desk and try to wind you up? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74119 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:52:28 +0000 Tom 74119@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>gembo: "Tom perhaps you are in a necessarily heightened state of arousal when cycling compared to when you are at your desk"</p> <p>Yep, that must be it because I'd never be in a heightened state of arousal at my desk. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74114 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:33:20 +0000 SRD 74114@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I look at which way front wheels are pointing when I'm passing alongside a line of traffic."</p> <p>So do I, but it is useless. learner drivers clearly no longer told to 'straighten wheel' after parking. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74110 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:58:42 +0000 gembo 74110@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Tom perhaps you are in a necessarily heightened state of arousal when cycling compared to when you are at your desk? Being aware of the risks involved in using roads used by cars etc is a good thing. </p> <p>there is a mini helmet debate that happens on here occasionally about headphones. I cannot use them as I become lost in music, I am caught in a trap, no turning back</p> <p>I also like disentangling the risk debate from the helmet debates.</p> <p>I think headphones are part of the risk debate but then I can't use them </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7063#post-74087 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 15:52:24 +0000 Baldcyclist 74087@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The very occasional twinges I get from my once cracked ribs, and the feint scars on my left arm and leg remind me how risky cycling is, for me at least. </p>