CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: On wanting to have your cake and eat it

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: On wanting to have your cake and eat it http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: On wanting to have your cake and eat it en Sun, 17 May 2026 06:16:54 +0000 SRD on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343&page=2#post-216712 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:27:59 +0000 SRD 216712@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ aye. very sporty & very helmety. my first thought though was about all the kids (two very prominent on first pages) who needed their saddles raised! Greenroofer on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343&page=2#post-216710 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:00:33 +0000 Greenroofer 216710@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Funny, I've just had mine too. I did note that at least some of the people in there didn't have magic hats on, and there was my usual gripe that the children shown wearing them were often wearing them wrong. That's discussion for the H****t thread. However the thing that I was saddest about was that the vast majority of the thing was about cycling as recreation (i.e. cycling=golf). Most of the pictures seemed to be people in 'bike gear' rather than cycling as a means of getting about. There also seemed to be an undercurrent of cycling actually being quite dangerous so you probably wouldn't want to do it on the roads. I hope that this is a deliberate choice by Cycling Scotland, and is part of a strategy of acknowledging concerns so they get people cycling somewhere, so that they then graduate to doing it everywhere, but I think they missed an opportunity to present cycling as transport. +1 for Suzanne's article, which was sound sense. Murun Buchstansangur on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343&page=2#post-216707 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:30:14 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur 216707@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Maybe it's roman numerals. Arellcat on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343&page=2#post-216705 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 20:58:38 +0000 Arellcat 216705@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I've just received issue 11* of SPIN magazine. I'm actually a little bit cross that of 57 people pictured riding their bike or being carried on one, only 5 of them are shown not using magic hats. Admittedly, many of them are shown doing PfS, and another one happens to be the man MacAskill, but others are clearly bimbling along trails and canal paths. Another 6 people are pictured with a bike but not riding. Nice wee article from Suzanne, though. * Other issues are available, I expect, but I'm not entirely sure where my copies of nos. 2 to 10 went. fimm on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343&page=2#post-83781 Fri, 07 Sep 2012 08:51:21 +0000 fimm 83781@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I was mostly annoyed that they had started sending me stuff when I had not asked for it! Instography on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343&page=2#post-83741 Thu, 06 Sep 2012 20:20:44 +0000 Instography 83741@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I got a copy of SPIN today and thought it not too bad. I got the impression that Cycling Scotland might be feeling under a bit of pressure to do a bit more advocacy on top of its pleading with motorists and being a mouthpiece for the Government. Like all of these things we can complain about how inadequate it all is or contribute and maybe keep pushing them along the right road. gembo on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343&page=2#post-83732 Thu, 06 Sep 2012 20:05:18 +0000 gembo 83732@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It did have two good routes. I sometimes think we can be a bit hard on this forum fimm on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343&page=2#post-83710 Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:46:15 +0000 fimm 83710@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Yes, I saw that. WRT photos of great Scottish cycle infrastructure - I thought a completely blank response would be quite good... (if unnecessarily negative...) Arellcat on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343&page=2#post-83705 Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:11:09 +0000 Arellcat 83705@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ fimm's comment on the ILoveMyBike/IHateMyBike thread, "And more unrequested mail from Cycling Scotland. Something called "Spin"... which is redemed by having a large picture of Pedal On Parliament on the front." dovetails neatly here. Spin magazine has a small shoutout on the back page: "Send us your infrastructure pictures! Infrastructure is a key part of boosting cycling levels, and to help us highlight best practice, Cycling Scotland is putting out a call for photos of great Scottish cycle infrastructure. Facebook us (ugh - Ed) or e-mail william at cyclingscotland.org with your pic and a location postcode, plus 50 words on how the infrastructure is changing behaviour. We'll compile the photos to display at our November conference." Maybe our crowdsourced green map pins would be a start: <a href="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=209737842711828293504.0004b23ebd5637d894842&msa=0&ll=55.937153,-3.235543&spn=0.002238,0.004812">Googlemap of poor (and good) infrastructure in Edinburgh</a> chdot on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343&page=2#post-83611 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 22:47:10 +0000 chdot 83611@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Think this pic has a certain validity on this thread - <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/chdot/7939622366/"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8314/7939622366_3b43b74c07.jpg"></a> From <a href="http://imtakingtwo.tiagogoncalves.com/post/29855367564/enrique-penalosa-on-urbanized-2011-gary-hustwit" rel="nofollow">http://imtakingtwo.tiagogoncalves.com/post/29855367564/enrique-penalosa-on-urbanized-2011-gary-hustwit</a> Seen at <a href="http://angelasbikeblog.tumblr.com/post/30399100769/imtakingtwo-enrique-penalosa-on-urbanized" rel="nofollow">http://angelasbikeblog.tumblr.com/post/30399100769/imtakingtwo-enrique-penalosa-on-urbanized</a> crowriver on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343&page=2#post-83589 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 21:06:02 +0000 crowriver 83589@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Insto: I'm deeply sceptical of Social Return on Investment Whereas everyone believes the government when they say building a bypass or three will create x jobs, give an economic return many times greater than the investment, etc. Ao we need to phrase it in economic terms, the FM is an economist after all. @fimm Maybe we sould provide motorists with a road that becomes a motorway, then a single track road with passing places, then a normal road. See how they like it? This is how campaigners (and the government to an extent) portray parts of the roads network: <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8353">the A9 springs to mind</a>, in fact. Naturally motorists (and the government to an extent) are outraged and want it dualled yesterday... Instography on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343&page=2#post-83580 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 20:15:14 +0000 Instography 83580@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I don't know. I'm deeply sceptical of Social Return on Investment because while it's relatively easy to come up with the costs side, it relies on too many cooked up numbers on the intangible social benefits side. I just looked at where all the benefits come from in the Edinburgh Leisure report and it's from a valuation of the health benefits from their activities. They might accurate but I doubt it and when the consultants are distancing themselves from the data behind their own report, you have to wonder. If you're looking for cost / benefit analysis of cycling infrastructure there will probably be better estimates of the benefits in other places. I'll have a root around. Instography on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83579 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 20:10:35 +0000 Instography 83579@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Actually, it's OK. In the summary, the consultants provide their own salt. Data and assumptions provided by staff at EL have been relied upon in our analysis; Baker Tilly have acted to facilitate EL’s understanding of the methodologies used to evaluate the impact but Baker Tilly are not responsible for the assumptions used in the evaluations shown in this report. chdot on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83578 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 20:09:08 +0000 chdot 83578@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "You might want a salt cellar handy" Thanks. Not a good model then?? Anything better? Instography on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83577 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 20:06:38 +0000 Instography 83577@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I think this is the model they might be referring to. <a href="http://www.edinburghleisure.co.uk/detail-456" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghleisure.co.uk/detail-456</a> You might want a salt cellar handy. chdot on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83574 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 19:48:03 +0000 chdot 83574@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Earlier I wrote - " Somehow they manage to make local infrastructure spending easier if it has (money saving) health benefits. " This isn't about cycling but the fact that the sums can be done and someone is doing them is interesting! " He said the group had carried out an analysis of the social benefit of the pool, based on a model used by Edinburgh Leisure, and calculated that Waterworld produced a return to the public purse of around £242,000, through savings to the NHS and savings to employers from reduced absences from work. " <a href="http://www.scotsman.com/news/campaign-tests-the-water-in-effort-to-save-pool-1-2499314" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotsman.com/news/campaign-tests-the-water-in-effort-to-save-pool-1-2499314</a> Any health economists on here? chdot on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83563 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 18:08:58 +0000 chdot 83563@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " "pushing at an open door" as the SNP administration would have it... " Been thinking about that - Perhaps people have - And discovered the door was at the edge of a cliff. Not suggesting that any government would have such low regard for the safety of its citizens... minus six on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83562 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 17:48:16 +0000 minus six 83562@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ ... but far be it for me to put anyone off fighting the good fight. "pushing at an open door" as the SNP administration would have it... minus six on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83559 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 17:23:06 +0000 minus six 83559@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Wanting your cake and eating it" is what the status quo of high speed motoring culture demands. They don't want cycling on the main roads, you're just in their way, and the off road shared paths are where they walk their untethered dogs, so you'll get short shrift there also. Its a farcical backwards provincial country that we live in, and nothing is going to change, bar the occasional cosmetic QBC here and there. wee folding bike on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83554 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 17:06:27 +0000 wee folding bike 83554@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The Highway Code was nearly worded so that we would have to use segregated facilities. <a href="http://beta.ctc.org.uk/campaign/new-highway-code" rel="nofollow">http://beta.ctc.org.uk/campaign/new-highway-code</a> cc on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83551 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 16:56:25 +0000 cc 83551@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Roibeard *laugh* why thank you :-) @chdot I'm reading that with great interest, thank you. Roibeard on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83550 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 16:46:07 +0000 Roibeard 83550@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @cc - I could hear the inspiring music and I could see the "magic hour" lighting as the camera panned to match the voice-over... Ah, the vision to make one's heart proud - maybe one day! If PoP ever needs a promo video director, I think you may have the job! Robert chdot on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83542 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 15:39:19 +0000 chdot 83542@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " This is what I want for Edinburgh. It's perfectly possible, because it's been done in other places. It's not unreasonable, because the benefits would be so massive, for everybody. " Think people might find this interesting - <a href="http://www.cancer.dk/NR/rdonlyres/3361A240-0235-47A9-A2A7-4067767AE8DB/0/Healthyandbicyclefriendlyschoolroads.pdf ">Healthy and Bicycle-Friendly School Roads - Guide with ideas for healthy and active transport</a> It's from Denmark. It's by a cancer charity that is determined to get children more active - especially by cycling. Of course the political and legislative climate is different. Somehow they manage to make local infrastructure spending easier if it has (money saving) health benefits. " It is important that the municipalities work across departments, so that the municipality’s ongoing work on infrastructures is seen in connection with the municipality’s multifaceted interests in safe routes to and from school for children who are healthy and ready to learn. By compiling the many interests, the biggest benefit is achieved for the citizens. Healthy and active children are an investment that extends into the future because the children grow up and become adults and parents themselves. The physical improvements are permanent, and good traffic habits are often inherited. " <a href="http://www.cancer.dk/fagfolk/forebyggelse/fysisk+aktivitet/cykling+og+sundhed/Healthy+and+bicycle-friendly+school+roads">More info</a> In the UK/Scotland I think there is a growing public 'demand' for this sort of joined-up-action - and a need for politicians to demonstrate better leadership. Instography on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83541 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 15:35:57 +0000 Instography 83541@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It's not even cake. Driving is cake. This is wholemeal. Dave on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83540 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 15:30:56 +0000 Dave 83540@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ As a matter of pride I ride over that railway bridge (even with the trailer) - provides a bit of spice for life. Useless as a general principle though! cc on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83538 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 15:12:35 +0000 cc 83538@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Imagine that your bidirectional cycle path is gorgeously smooth and is 4 metres wide - 2 metres in each direction. Imagine that it has a separate pavement or footpath nearby for pedestrians. Imagine that it has priority over all minor roads - so you just keep cycling - and that it avoids major roads (goes over or under them). Imagine that it's the only short, direct route from one part of the town to the other - cars have to go round the long way. Imagine that it's always kept clear of obstructions such as snow, ice, wet leaves, burnt out motorbikes, cars, vans and lorries. Imagine that there's either one of these, or a speed-limited street which is a dead end for cars, close enough to take you conveniently from anywhere to anywhere. This is what I want for Edinburgh. It's perfectly possible, because it's been done in other places. It's not unreasonable, because the benefits would be so massive, for everybody. chdot on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83530 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 14:45:32 +0000 chdot 83530@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " We'd spent several minutes puzzling about where we were meant to go as it was, before admitting defeat. " Obviously no 'alternative flat route' signs. Basically it's along the road by the railway, over the bridge and there happens to be a path on the other side. fimm on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83527 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 14:33:24 +0000 fimm 83527@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "There is a (longer) alternative -.but you are right about that route." We'd spent several minutes puzzling about where we were meant to go as it was, before admitting defeat. chdot on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83526 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 14:30:33 +0000 chdot 83526@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "And then we had to carry the bikes over a railway bridge at Brunstane station" There is a (longer) alternative -.but you are right about that route. The tarmac bit is the 'planning gain' from the nearby houses. No chance of any such money for the next bit. Of course in Council terms this route will be seen as 'cross boundary' (East Lothian) so lower priority than others in Edinburgh... fimm on "On wanting to have your cake and eat it" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8343#post-83523 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 14:21:35 +0000 fimm 83523@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Oh yes, and the other thing about off-road cycle paths - you just don't know what you are going to get. Let me tell you a story... My friend G decided to come and meet me in Gullane and we cycled back to Edinburgh together. Just as we were approaching the place where the main road (A199) bears left away from following the coast, G noticed a blue sign for a shared use path (you can see it on Streetview but I can't read what it says). "Let's go that way," says G, "It should bring us out on the Innocent Path." Sp we did. It was a nice tarmac path. Then it became a rather rougher path. Then it became a muddy path up a bit of a slope. G was on a broad-tyred touring bike and could just spin up. I was on my thin-tyred road bike with not-very-low gears and couldn't. So I had to get off and walk. And then we had to carry the bikes over a railway bridge at Brunstane station. Fun for a friendly cycle. Not what I would want to do for my regular commute! Maybe we sould provide motorists with a road that becomes a motorway, then a single track road with passing places, then a normal road. See how they like it?