http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Cycling accident and discussion en Mon, 01 Jun 2026 01:27:17 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86104 Sat, 29 Sep 2012 13:16:58 +0000 LaidBack 86104@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Just because someone percieves you as weak does not excuse them from exercising aggression. Interestingly this came up with someone looking at a low down trike.<br /> "Looks a bit like a wheelchair" (ie despite paralympics some people still have same views)<br /> I said that this should be a good thing as drivers would exercise restraint.<br /> Then we got into the whole "are bikes with seats confusing drivers to be nice to people who don't have a disabity thread? Are some of their users cheats looking for sympathy etc".<br /> I have a whole CityCycling article in there somewhere... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86091 Sat, 29 Sep 2012 11:57:07 +0000 Smudge 86091@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Dave, yes it was an ill considered and possibly stupid comment/wording, however what I was trying to suggest is that a cyclist could be negligent in getting into the situation, and yes I would say something very similar to a bus driver who ploughed through an obvious area of risk at excessive speed (regardless of whether they were under the posted speed limit).<br /> "Vulnerability" is a red herring here, it could just as easily been a crossing pedestrian hit as a car. The issue is riding(or driving) at a speed where the rider appears unable to react to predictable hazards.</p> <p>I believe rights and responsibilities apply to us the same way, whether in a car or on a bike (or other vehicle). If a car behaved in the manner described I'd call it reckless and dangerous, no different on a bicycle. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86085 Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:08:59 +0000 Dave 86085@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I didn't see anyone saying that anyone was responsible for being knocked off for not riding defensively enough."</p> <p>Was referring to "I would say you are at least 50% to blame and certainly have little cause for complaint."</p> <p>Nobody would ever say that to a bus driver involved in a collision with a driver who took a chance on the bus lane being empty just because the 'traffic lane' was moving slowly enough to let them through. Cycle lane (or cyclist in a bus lane?) seems to be fair game though.</p> <p>While I agree that being more vulnerable than a bus driver is a good incentive to be more careful than one, I can't see why being more vulnerable either transfers more blame onto you or bizarrely removes your right to complain when someone takes advantage. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86076 Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:14:30 +0000 chdot 86076@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Vulnerable on the Open Road: Five pro cyclists reflect on bike safety</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://youtu.be/zFZSW_aTzVc" rel="nofollow">http://youtu.be/zFZSW_aTzVc</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86049 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 18:51:56 +0000 gembo 86049@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@kirst I work next door to Chesser hous and know the turn into fords road you are talking about. I took it the other day when traffic was quiet. But more usually now I trundle on a few yards to the pedestrian crossing, press the button and dismount and then push my bike over then proceed along fords road. Cuts out much of the risk. Also let's people put of fords road. Does sometimes seem to annoy drivers a little </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86041 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 15:43:24 +0000 sallyhinch 86041@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Since doing Pedal on Parliament I've heard from loads of people how the fear does put them off - even people who've been cycling quite regularly or who cycle off road on on Sky rides. When I cycled in London there were times when I didn't want to get on a bike because it was too scary. You change your route, you get off and push, or sometimes you just hang up the bike shed keys and give up. You don't have to get hit, you just have to have had a nasty near miss, or know someone who got hit, or witness an accident. And the ripples spread out - someone who's been scared off their own bike won't want their kids, partner or family to ride. The end result is very few actual cyclists, not just as a proportion of journeys but as a percentage of the population.</p> <p>As it happens, I'm a terrible driver (and terrified I'll hit someone) so I feel more in control when I'm cycling especially now I live somewhere where traffic is light and there's not much in the way of an alternative. So I cycle, but there are places I don't go and routes I don't take because they just feel like they're too scary to be worth it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86025 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:17:20 +0000 chdot 86025@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> I'm a newbie to this forum, so haven't read all the posts yet so might be repeating stuff already done to death ;-)</p> <p>"Yet"!!!???</p> <p>Even <em>I</em> haven't read <em>all</em> the posts on here. </p> <p>I have read <em>most</em> posts - on the day they were posted. </p> <p>It's actually remarkable how <em>in</em>frequently topics are "repeated". </p> <p>There are always common themes - state of the roads, drivers etc. etc. Usually there is a 'new angle' which justifies a new thread. </p> <p>Very occasionally there are genuinely 'we've discussed that before' threads - but then someone links to previous thread (in a helpful way).</p> <p>The great thing about CCE is that it has collected a remarkable bunch of people who like cycling and genuinely want to encourage others to want to/enjoy too. </p> <p>Some are 'just' commuters others take part in a range of leisure/sport activities - usually as well rather than instead of. </p> <p>Some people post almost every day - which is great to have that sort of 'loyalty' - but I really think the fact that quite a few people have joined CCE to post something of particular concern to them and then post nothing for another six months is a sign of how useful/useable it is. </p> <p>So don't worry about 'I'd better not post because it's so obvious it must have been mentioned before'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86023 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:02:46 +0000 Instography 86023@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I didn't see anyone saying that anyone was responsible for being knocked off for not riding defensively enough. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86021 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:49:28 +0000 SRD 86021@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This is worrying - I agree totally with everything Dave said in the above post.... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86019 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:46:39 +0000 Dave 86019@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>For me, the main problem with arguing that people are responsible for being knocked off because they didn't ride defensively enough is that it's heavily elitist. </p> <p>I think it's fair enough to say that, for those of us who know the score, taking a chance that others will obey the law may be unwise, but if we ever want to have a situation where Joe Public's Granny can get on her shopper and pedal off down the bingo, we can't expect her to acquire ninja hazard perception as a prerequisite. </p> <p>In true CCE vaguely-applicable analogy style: if you get a green man but are hit crossing the road, few people would argue that you were half responsible because you failed to cross defensively enough (although it's quite possible that a veteran road crosser would have avoided being run down by taking greater care over the whole green man situation) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86014 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:34:07 +0000 paolobr 86014@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Lots of good comments, find myself agreeing with much...</p> <p>I've taken the attitude over the years that I just have to make myself as noticeable to traffic as possible without putting myself in harms way (if that's at all possible), and just try to be aware of everything that could be a possible hazard (if that's also at all possible). Lots of checking over shoulder, obvious signalling, keeping distance from rows of parked cars etc (the usual?). Sometimes I just have to admit defeat and hang back, take the safest option, even if it's inconvenient. Hard-won experience over the years, I guess.</p> <p>Should I have to do it? It would be nice not to.</p> <p>Would new cyclists be put off by such effort? I hope not, though we are sharing the road with lots of potential hazards and we have to be aware of them. </p> <p>How to make it easier/safer for new cyclists (or indeed older hands)? All the discussions on this forum and elsewhere that lead to campaigns, awareness etc. </p> <p>I'm a newbie to this forum, so haven't read all the posts yet so might be repeating stuff already done to death ;-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86012 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:22:16 +0000 Smudge 86012@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I have to confess I don't feel afraid getting on the bike to cycle in town/traffic, (although individual incidents/people certainly do frighten me!) strangely I actually enjoy riding in heavy traffic, the heavier the better.<br /> Hats off to those who ride scared though :-/</p> <p>OT, if any lurkers who are unhappy/inexperienced in traffic would like to, I'd be more than happy to do a demo ride to a coffee shop/pub then bore the pants off you about why I ride where/how I ride, primary&amp; secondary position etc etc :-) as I'm sure would some other city riders on here. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86011 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:19:42 +0000 Kirst 86011@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>When I worked at Chesser House I would have to turn right across Gorgie Road to get into the carpark/bike stands. The traffic along there is usually busy and sometimes I would be sitting in the right hand lane with my right arm out waiting for a gap for quite a while. Sometimes a vehicle in the right hand lane of the opposite carriageway would flash me across. I would never proceed unless I was sure the left hand lane was clear too. On several occasions the driver who flashed me would flash me two or three times and gesture to me to move, and I would point at the left hand lane, they would check their mirrors and realise why I wasn't moving. Every now and again I would see a driver check the left mirror and then flash me across which was always nice - nice to know some people think more broadly about people's safety.</p> <p>But, I would never start the turn until I was sure both lanes were safe. The motorist in this situation should have done the same. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86008 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:57:49 +0000 Nelly 86008@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>'I get a sick feeling in my stomach before I set off on my bike every time'</p> <p>In that case you (and RB) get kudos for riding every day!</p> <p>I may be in a minority, but I dont even think about it until/unless an incident occurs.</p> <p>I definitely get more stressed opening the car door, perhaps its because I know I will be in a traffic jam watching bikes sail past ! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86006 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:37:31 +0000 wingpig 86006@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote><em>"...once people do it for a few months/years it becomes so automatic that you don't even think about it..&gt;"</em></blockquote></p> <p>...after which you find something else to adopt, practise and ingrain. It's only in the past few years that I've re-started properly checking behind me every time I need to stop in freely-moving traffic in case there's something behind me which might not be able to stop as quickly as me (or which might not have been planning to bother to stop, when the reason to stop is a junction or set of lights rather than a stationary heavy object). I've now built it into my repertoire of things-I-try-to-always-do. Before that the most recent thing I started deliberately improving was increasing the obviousness of my shoulder-checking, most recently partly due to making sure that the hat-cam caught a glance of what was behind me (and hopefully to allow things behind me to notice me noticing them) but also due to the perceived usefulness of directing the beam of my head-mounted light towards anyone whom I would like to have noticed my presence at junctions at night. Before that it was doing the eye-contact-with-things-behind-you-at-junctions thing, mostly so that I had a better idea of what might be steaming past me as soon as it got into gear after the lights changed. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86005 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:37:21 +0000 Min 86005@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>*applauds*</p> <p><em>I drop the kids off at school and feel my heart rate rise before I set off as an unprotected commuter </em></p> <p>I get a sick feeling in my stomach before I set off on my bike every time. The intensity rises and falls according to how many near misses I have had recently but it is always there.</p> <p>I reckon the day when that does not happen is the day we have become a cycle friendly nation. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86003 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:31:08 +0000 Roibeard 86003@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Min <em>I would definitely cycle a lot more if I wasn't scared and I AM scared. I just do it anyway.</em></p> <p>You may be giving permission to express vulnerability on this point!</p> <p>Yes, I admit it, I'm also scared - I drop the kids off at school and feel my heart rate rise <em>before</em> I set off as an unprotected commuter (the kids create a bit of a protective bubble).</p> <p>We've had others admit to being scared by an everyday, ordinary manoeuvre, <a href="http://helpmychaincameoff.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/when-right-turn-becomes-wrong-turn.html">turning right</a>...</p> <p>I'm Robert and cycling scares me (sometimes).</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532&page=2#post-86002 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:12:24 +0000 Smudge 86002@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Min &amp; Roibeard, agreed :-( </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532#post-86001 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:10:48 +0000 Smudge 86001@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Sallyhinch, if I change your first line slightly to<br /> "<em>road users</em> have to be alert in order to keep <em>everyone</em> safe" and "On the road, on<em>/in a vehicle</em>, you have to be in overdrive looking out for hazards. That car turning right might not have noticed me. That car at the side road waiting to pull out might misjudge my speed. That parked car might suddenly sprout a door. Are my lights bright enough"</p> <p>Then yes, it's the level of attention I would hope for/expect from truck drivers, car drivers, motorcyclists, and indeed cyclists. That doesn't preclude a nice chat alongside someone on the quieter roads, and it's why imho in town the speed limits should be 20mph across the board, but it's the level we expect from other users so why not from ourselves?</p> <p>Of course if all other road users drove/rode to that standard then we could relax a little, but until then we need to teach/preach/practice defensive riding and once people do it for a few months/years it becomes so automatic that you don't even think about it. It's just like balancing or changing gears.<br /> (Not said as a rant, just in a sad, resigned voice :-/ ) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532#post-86000 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:05:50 +0000 Min 86000@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Agree with Sally, Morningsider and Roibeard. I think it is sad that we (as a society) can only shake our heads at people who didn't know that someone would drive over them while they were in the bike lane or who don't have the nerve to ride right out in traffic rather than hugging parked cars.</p> <p>I have become an "experienced" cyclist by loving cycling and by being bloody minded and refusing to be bullied off the road. I would definitely cycle a lot more if I wasn't scared and I AM scared. I just do it anyway. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532#post-85999 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 11:53:18 +0000 Roibeard 85999@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Morningsider <em>I know this raises the question of how we currently have "experienced cyclists" - I'm assuming such people are something of a special breed who are willing to take more risks (whether percieved or real) than the average person, as they gain experience.</em></p> <p>I think rather that experienced cyclists didn't recognise the risks they were taking, had a shock/near miss, then kept cycling but moderated their approach to accommodate that new awareness of risk - e.g. my choice often not to use cycle lanes!</p> <p>The difference isn't then between those prepared to take risks and those more risk adverse, but rather between the innocent-of-risk, the now-aware-of-risk-but-still-cycling and the scared-off-my-bike.</p> <p>@Sally - don't forget the "what if you've loaded up with 75kg of washingmachine".</p> <p>I'm getting round to the idea of not just getting councillors to cycle but getting them to cycle with my youngest, or a heavy cargo. Often the everyday cyclist underestimates the hazardous nature of the road because they are hyper-alert and can accelerate like Franklin/Forrester - give them a 6 year old or 75 kg and see how the infrastructure looks like when travelling at 10mph rather than 18mph+...</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532#post-85997 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 11:42:04 +0000 sallyhinch 85997@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think this illustrates the point that - while cyclists who cycle NOW obviously have to be hyper alert in order to keep themselves safe - there's something deeply wrong here. On the road, on a bike, you have to be in overdrive looking out for hazards. That car turning right might not have noticed me. That car at the side road waiting to pull out might misjudge my speed. That parked car might suddenly sprout a door. Are my lights bright enough, is my jacket yellow enough, better not listen to music, better not ride alongside someone else having a nice chat, better not even think about anything other than the road ahead in case I get wiped out...</p> <p>It's no way to travel, is it? I mean, there's a certain thrill to be had from surviving a close encounter with a driver whose mind was elsewhere but constant levels of adrenaline get you down after a while. And that's for an adult, alert, sober, rational, experienced cyclist. What if you're 15, what if you're deaf, what if you can no longer look over your shoulder, what if the old legs don't accelerate to 20mph in seconds any more, what if you're just a bit zonked that morning after a hard night? What if you're just back on the bike after not riding for 15 years? How on earth do we expect anyone but the absolutely committed to cycle at all?</p> <p>/ end rant</p> <p>(edited to add: that wasn't aimed at any of the above posters btw, it's just something that bubbles up periodically in my brain and has to be said...) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532#post-85996 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 11:15:49 +0000 Smudge 85996@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@SRD, I'd blame myself for riding in the door zone.</p> <p>Undertaking is probably an unfortunately pejorative term, however as described many people do not anticipate vehicles passing on their left so we ought to be exercising extra caution when passing vehicles on our right, <em>especially</em> if it is a solitary vehicle and doubly so where there are other hazards (as with the junction described above).<br /> It's one of the reasons why I will always pass on the right if it is at all possible, even though it may be legal to go up the left.</p> <p>Agreed, the bike/car/whatever crossing a carriageway has ultimate responsibility to ensure it is safe to complete the maneouvre, however as someone pointed out above, that's little consolation in an ambulance and regardless of the outcome it's surely commonsense and good manners to do everything in our power to avoid forseeable collisions. Even the most careful people WILL make mistakes.</p> <p>As many will know, I don't hang around in traffic, but passing a vehicle on the left at a junction is a very clear danger point and anyone who has had good training should be pretty much <em>expecting</em> a crossing vehicle. Add that to watching the front wheels/bonnet for the first movement, moderating your speed and position to allow for the risk, making eye contact with the driver etc etc, fundamentally, regardless of legal liability, it's a 90% avoidable collision. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532#post-85995 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 11:15:24 +0000 cb 85995@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>When you're the driver who is being flashed across into a side road it helps if you are also a cyclist sometimes - I am always really cautious before making that right hand turn in the car and have an "expect a bike" mindset.</p> <p>When on the bike if I see a car has been flashed across then I pretty much always stop too and wave the car across with my hand.</p> <p>I don't think it paints a great picture when cyclists go barrelling down the inside of traffic. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532#post-85994 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 11:05:03 +0000 Morningsider 85994@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Very interesting thread, with good comments all round. I see this as a clash between the "cycle sense" that experienced cyclists develop - i.e. a knowledge of traffic movement and how to protect yourself from bad/unexpected manouvers, and the actual law and highway code. </p> <p>My view tends to fall on the side that an experienced cyclist should have been able to anticipate this happening, although clearly the drivers involved did not comply with the law/highway code.</p> <p>This is really the sort of thing that puts people off cycling. If the cycle lane was segregated and continued across the junction then this sort of thing would be very unlikely to happen. The existence of such junctions would also make drivers more aware of possible cyclists at junctions which did not have such features.</p> <p>Until the roads are safe for everyone and not just expereinced cyclists exercising a kind of sixth sense then I doubt we will see any real groth in the number of people cycling.</p> <p>I know this raises the question of how we currently have "experienced cyclists" - I'm assuming such people are something of a special breed who are willing to take more risks (whether percieved or real) than the average person, as they gain experience. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532#post-85992 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:49:45 +0000 Instography 85992@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm not sure there's anything different. In pretty much any situation (and not just cycling) the question to ask is "was there anything in my behaviour that had it been different might have changed the outcome?" It's a question to ask after the fact as way of learning. If you only ascribe blame to someone else then you don't learn about yourself. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532#post-85990 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:34:53 +0000 Roibeard 85990@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Probably my worst "off" was in exactly this situation.</p> <p>I'm now more likely to join the queue, or to overtake on the right, rather than use a cycle lane on the left.</p> <p>Of course the driver was at fault, but I'm not going to give another driver the opportunity to make the same mistake.</p> <p>Drivers see a gap in stationary traffic and ignore the fact that there's another lane of potentially moving traffic. Mind you, they also don't recognise that they're crossing a lane of traffic when changing lanes across the cycle lane either.</p> <p>I think we need to draw on the wisdom of my French teacher and declare all unsegregated (advisory?) cycle lanes to be <em>faux amis</em>.</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532#post-85988 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:32:42 +0000 SRD 85988@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So, what's the difference between what you described and you tootling down the road, with row of parked cars to your left, when you get doored? Yes, you should have been looking for that, and you probably were, but that time you got hit. Do you blame yourself for going too fast to stop/swerve? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532#post-85987 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:24:53 +0000 Instography 85987@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>My reading of the linked thread is that the cyclist went into the side of the turning car, although he changes between him hitting the car and the car hitting him in the first sentence, it becomes clearer down the thread that he seems to have run into the car. I read that as the turning car being well into its maneouvre by the time the cyclist comes down the inside. He was going too fast to stop. </p> <p>I read the whole scenario as a car stopping and indicating to the car waiting to turn that he is going to wait while he turns. I don't think it's necessarily true that the car ought not to have been there. Cars are allowed to turn across queues of stationary traffic but they have a responsibility to do so when it is safe. We know that the cyclist was going too fast to stop because he says so.</p> <p>The turning car has all the responsibility but the cyclist could maybe have avoided that collision by observing what the cars were doing, being more alert to the possibilities and slowing down until he knew it was safe to carry on, if only for the sake of avoiding getting hurt. It doesn't make him at fault but I'm not convinced of the value of having right of way. I'd rather cede right of way and not get hurt than to hang onto it with the reassurance of being right. </p> <p>But I don't really know enough about this scenario so I'll illustrate the distinction I see with an example I know all about because I was the cyclist. Riding along Portobello High Street between a queue of slow-moving traffic and the parked cars that were nose in to the kerb, a car in the queue spotted a parking space and quickly turned into it. In doing so, he scooped me up with his left front wing. He stopped immediately but I still fell to the ground and was partly pushed, partly slid under one of the parked cars. I wasn't badly hurt. A bit bruised. Technically, the driver was all to blame but I reckon I could have avoided most of the hurt and maybe avoided the collision if I had been going up the queue more slowly. I wasn't rattling along but the GPS trace from my Garmin is showing my speed between 10mph and 15mph just before I stopped. I wasn't to "blame" because the driver should have been checking his mirrors and he would have seen me but if I had been going more slowly when I saw the guy's partner point to the space (which I did) I might have been able to slow down enough to not get hit. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8532#post-85986 Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:20:40 +0000 cb 85986@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Anyway, undertaking is legal in queuing traffic. </p> <p>I'm not sure at what point "queuing" becomes "not-queuing" though. It's probably got more to do with traffic volumes than traffic speeds. </p>