http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Herald: Worrying rise in cycling injuries en Wed, 13 May 2026 04:20:33 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90739 Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:40:11 +0000 crowriver 90739@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>It's about Chicago and how they've committed to building "150 miles of green lanes (110 miles protected and 40 miles buffered) by 2015" and are trying to finish 30 miles by the end of this year. But that NY is still ahead of them.</em></p> <p>That's great. So in about 25 years' time UK cities will have caught up... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90730 Mon, 12 Nov 2012 11:31:59 +0000 SRD 90730@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@wc - Well put- when I read that 'fail to see' line and thought it was rather poorly phrased.</p> <p>But this whole discussion also goes back to the <a href="http://deceasedcanine.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/we-need-to-be-clear-about-what-we-want.html">blog post I linked to about the Telegraph article</a>. We need to be really clear about what we are asking for, otherwise the solutions are likely to prove worse than the present situation. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90729 Mon, 12 Nov 2012 11:25:30 +0000 chdot 90729@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Cycling Scotland chief Ian Aitken said he would welcome more safety measures on the roads, even though casualty numbers are falling.</p> <p>He said: “There were 150 cyclists seriously injured on Scotland’s roads last year but that has halved from the 1994 rate of more than 300.”</p> <p>"<br /> <a href="http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/mark-beaumont-bradley-wiggins-and-other-athletes-1426582" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/mark-beaumont-bradley-wiggins-and-other-athletes-1426582</a> </p> <p>Ah statistics... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90727 Mon, 12 Nov 2012 11:20:31 +0000 chdot 90727@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Cycling Scotland chief Ian Aitken said he would welcome more safety measures on the roads, even though casualty numbers are falling.</p> <p>He said: “There were 150 cyclists seriously injured on Scotland’s roads last year but that has halved from the 1994 rate of more than 300.”</p> <p>"<br /> <a href="http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/mark-beaumont-bradley-wiggins-and-other-athletes-1426582" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/mark-beaumont-bradley-wiggins-and-other-athletes-1426582</a> </p> <p>Ah statistics... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90721 Mon, 12 Nov 2012 11:02:31 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 90721@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I have some sympathy with WFB's view of the Herald piece (though I'm not mystified by cyclists having bother on commutes - it might not be every day, but I can see there's a lot of aggression/impatience out there and some of it directed at me).</p> <p>The article is perfectly well intentioned, and the writer is correct that it wants to put pressure on politicians to 'do something about it'. But it's a double-edged sword because people will often read into these things what they <em>want</em>. So I think there <em>is</em> scope for some politicians to react to this by thinking "helmets/hi-viz" because there's a sort of conditioning in that direction, and, perhaps most importantly, that's easy and costless compared to a re-allocation of roads budget to new infrastructure.</p> <p>Another example of how to read thigns comes in lines such as, "<em>... evidence suggests drivers are more often to blame for accidents because they frequently fail to see cyclists</em>"</p> <p>You and I will read that as 'drivers need to take more care to look properly'. The anti-cyclist brigade will say 'we don't see cyclists because they appear from nowhere, don't wear hi-viz, and don't use lights at night, so how can that be our fault?'.</p> <p>To be honest I think the balance between saying that the roads are dangerous (people being killed, no matter how few it might be, backs this up as reality), and trying to encourage people to get out on bikes, is an almost impossible line to walk. It becomes a convoluted message of, "The roads are safe, but sometimes they're dangerous, but people should be able to cycle ont he roads, although we want quality infrastructure like Denmark, and let's not even go anywhere near 'safety' equipment".</p> <p>I don't know the blogger's road in Glasgow, so can't comment - though if WFB's suggested alternative works then surely that has to be worth passing on (and is a huge echo of comments on here on another thread about a cyclist riding up the middle of Lothian Road when the 'correct' route suggested by a few was to go up Castle Terrace and onto the Bread Street contraflow). Interesting that in that case alternatives were suggested, then in the Glasgow case it's used as a 'she should be able to ride there' without alternatives being suggested. I presume it's just based on relative knowledge of the routes involved.</p> <p>In short, the article makes some good points; reinforces some stereotypes; is unlikely to put off regular cyclists; is unlikely to encourage new cyclists; is pretty much definitely not going to inspire political change; but is at least a national media outlet looking like it takes things seriously and doesn't land the blame at cyclists. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90716 Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:42:09 +0000 SRD 90716@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Crowriver - did you read the article? It's about Chicago and how they've committed to building "150 miles of green lanes (110 miles protected and 40 miles buffered) by 2015" and are trying to finish 30 miles by the end of this year. But that NY is still ahead of them. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90709 Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:25:12 +0000 fimm 90709@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/herald-view/an-uphill-struggle-to-make-our-streets-safer-for-cyclists.19382029" rel="nofollow">http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/herald-view/an-uphill-struggle-to-make-our-streets-safer-for-cyclists.19382029</a></p> <p>With only one comment which starts "<em>The law should be changed to ban cyclists from pavements...</em>"<br /> I can't be bothered to register just to point out that this is already the law... &lt;sigh&gt;. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90703 Mon, 12 Nov 2012 00:50:37 +0000 crowriver 90703@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>As many folk will tell you, New York is not America. </p> <p>In any case the UK does not copy <em>everything</em> from the US. Just the crap stuff like multi-lane highways in the middle of cities, replacing rail and trams with buses, etc. Then we graft it on to largely unchanged Victorian (or older) infrastructure and wonder why it's not working. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90695 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:53:47 +0000 chdot 90695@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From SRD's link -</p> <p>"</p> <p>buffered bike lane, and we’ve even gone beyond that and have kind of become a national leader in putting in green lanes. So it’s really exciting to see how quickly we’re making progress here. The pace of change is exciting and that it’s making people safer and getting people out biking.</p> <p>Do we have the most miles of protected bike lanes at this point?</p> <p>I believe New York is still ahead of us but we are rapidly catching up.</p> <p>Mike Amsden said CDOT wants to get to thirty miles of green lanes this year. Do you think that’s going to happen?</p> <p>Yes, I think we’ll get past thirty miles this year.</p> <p>"</p> <p>So who is Embra gonna emulate/compete with??? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90687 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:39:29 +0000 Cyclingmollie 90687@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@wfb <em>"So good they invented the darn things there"</em></p> <p>and immediately put to use to get to Glasgow faster iirc. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90686 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:39:20 +0000 sallyhinch 90686@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Oh there are *plenty* of potholes in D&amp;G, believe me... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90685 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:22:31 +0000 Claggy Cog 90685@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Tom I concur, lovely county, very picturesque, and the roads do not have those little holes that cause you to bounce gently along your way or give you the benefit of a shower supplied by the passing car causing the splashing of water as it passes you by, on your daily commmute. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90684 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:21:47 +0000 wee folding bike 90684@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So good they invented the darn things there. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90681 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:14:39 +0000 Cyclingmollie 90681@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>CC: <em>"D@G a little too quiet and rural for his tastes"</em></p> <p>Shame, it's great cycling country. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90678 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:07:46 +0000 Claggy Cog 90678@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@chdot - yes to your last post, but that was one hell of a long time ago!! Three hunner years!!.<br /> @wfb Burns may not have been born in Embra but he spent most of his life here, D@G a little too quiet and rural for his tastes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90677 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:06:16 +0000 SRD 90677@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The US - or at least Chicago - seems to be doing something right: <a href="http://greenlaneproject.org/blog/view/chicago-active-trans-takes-an-active-role-in-promoting-green-lanes" rel="nofollow">http://greenlaneproject.org/blog/view/chicago-active-trans-takes-an-active-role-in-promoting-green-lanes</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90674 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 22:36:38 +0000 wee folding bike 90674@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I don't think Burns was really from Edinburgh… </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90671 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 22:13:04 +0000 chdot 90671@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Until America decides to 'go Dutch' there's little hope the UK will"</p> <p>But that's the thing - it needn't be about 'copy the average'</p> <p>In US there are plenty of places to emulate (and why not try to be better than!!) - Portland, recent/current New York etc. </p> <p>There was a time when <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Enlightenment">Edinburgh was ahead of most places</a>... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90668 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:48:52 +0000 SRD 90668@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@morningsider, did wonder if that comment would stir up critique. I do think, however, that it is fair to not just blame big lobbyists - eg the car lobby, oil companies - and the politicians. there have been severall egregious cases of revolving door syndrome down south in the past few weeks. I'll dig out the references if you missed it. </p> <p>But I think it's important to realise that these decisions are not made straightforwardly - eg some big donor hands over a bag of cash to corrupt politician. It is much more complex than this. And in certain areas, civil servants do have a lot of influence. Wether that is true of our transport dept or not, I have no idea. I'd like to think not, the people I have met who work there seem very good and committed. But the point was more general - if what people thought equated to votes and thus to politicians supporting that cause, the world would be a very different place. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90666 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:45:46 +0000 wee folding bike 90666@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There are plenty of people who want other drivers to slow down but that might not be the same number as want to slow down themselves. A bit like the number of above average drivers.</p> <p>Have roads in Edinburgh changed much in 60 years? Obviously Glasgow has, to a quite high degree. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90665 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:45:29 +0000 crowriver 90665@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>WHY the UK in general - and Edinburgh in particular - isn't willing to learn from elsewhere is something of a mystery.</em></p> <p>Oh but we have. The problem is, the place the UK (Scotland included) continues to learn from the most is the USA. Which is pretty ridiculous as our population densities, urban architecture, etc. are much closer to the European norm. However due to our shared language, our culture is pretty much in thrall to that of the US. Until America decides to 'go Dutch' there's little hope the UK will. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90664 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:41:59 +0000 gembo 90664@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Car lobby has influence still ? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90663 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:41:59 +0000 gembo 90663@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Car lobby has influence still ? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888&page=2#post-90662 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:32:12 +0000 chdot 90662@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"police and driver attitudes (shaped by the road layouts)"</p> <p>I think that has a lot to do with it.</p> <p>WHY the UK in general - and Edinburgh in particular - isn't willing to learn from elsewhere is<em> something</em> of a mystery.</p> <p>At many times over the past 60 years or so, people against 'roads' have been categorised as NIMBYs or 'anti-progress'. This is still much the case in terms of 'important infrastructure projects'.</p> <p>But in towns and cities it <em>should </em>be easier now. There must be many people wanting lower speeds, easier roads to walk across or take their children to school on (etc.) - and there <em>ought</em> to be (more) politicians who have noticed AND are will to take up the idea <em>and especially</em> confront the 'reality' that <em>some</em> of the same people want to be able to drive/park where they imagine they have the right to! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888#post-90659 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:56:33 +0000 cc 90659@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Compare Edinburgh with cities where most people routinely cycle. The difference is not that people in those cities don't say anything nasty about cycling in case it puts people off. The main difference is that for a long time they have been so vocal about the problems (and opportunities) of cycling that their governments have dedicated themselves to massively improving infrastructure, law enforcement, and everything else that here in Edinburgh puts most people off cycling in the city. And those improvements have made cycling simply the easiest, quickest and most attractive way of getting about.</p> <p>For some people it feels that way in Scotland already. For most people it's not, and with our existing roads and police and driver attitudes (shaped by the road layouts) that's not going to change much. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888#post-90658 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:25:49 +0000 wee folding bike 90658@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks. I knew I had missed something.</p> <p>I seem to have conflated a couple of manys too but that's because I'm annoyed at what the Herald has become. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888#post-90657 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:18:40 +0000 crowriver 90657@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>We told people that cycling is dangerous. People use this as <strike>a reason</strike> an excuse to not cycle, obviously it's <strike>not</strike> just because they can't be bothered to get out of their car.</em></p> <p>FTFY ;-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888#post-90653 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 19:52:01 +0000 wee folding bike 90653@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I don't think I follow the distinction. </p> <p>We told people that cycling is dangerous. People use this as a reason to not cycle, obviously it's not just because they can't be bothered to get out of their car. </p> <p>We just confirmed the suspicions of many people who do not cycle. True it wasn't many people as Sunday Hersld circulation has dropped so low they changed it to a local paper to dodge the audit… allegedly. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888#post-90649 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 19:29:19 +0000 chdot 90649@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I think an article in the Herald which makes cycling look dangerous is an own goal"</p> <p>Only if you think there were people just about to start cycling who have changed their minds. </p> <p>There are plenty of people with no intention of cycling (on roads - at least), but plenty who would like things improved so that they can. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8888#post-90647 Sun, 11 Nov 2012 19:20:06 +0000 wee folding bike 90647@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>No Min, I think an article in the Herald which makes cycling look dangerous is an own goal. </p> <p>Of course not many people read the Herald anymore. Even I usually just read the two Ians, Bell And McWhirter. </p>