http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Police Hypocrisy over 20mph limits? en Fri, 22 May 2026 00:27:31 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095&page=2#post-94823 Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:01:47 +0000 PS 94823@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I noticed from the car last week that the diversion route along Albany/Abercromby/Heriot Row is all 20mph.</p> <p>I'm not sure how long it has been, but I've certainly never noticed cars going particularly slowly along there. Whether that is because cars in town rarely get up above 20mph so there is no discerable difference from a ped's POV or because the 20mph limit is rarely observed is up for debate. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095&page=2#post-94813 Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:24:39 +0000 splitshift 94813@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>perhaps its an age thing but myself and several of my age related friends take great pleasure in enforcing 20mph zones, in our cars as well as lorries.Was once told by a police officer(traffic)of a tale when he took great objection to someone(not him ) getting a ticket for travelling at 35 in a 30. His comments were that it was so easy to end up travelling at that speed very quickly , dependant on road conditions etc.My argument was that they were breaking the law and had been caught and had to pay the fine, but he was perhaps more "forgiving ?" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095&page=2#post-94810 Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:36:34 +0000 Snowy 94810@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@chdot Gillespie's. Junction of Spottiswoode Street and Road. The activity seems quite random. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095&page=2#post-94804 Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:01:42 +0000 cb 94804@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Looks like CEC is making 20mph more 'visible'."</p> <p>That is good news. I was thinking the other day about how the 20 zone really isn't that obvious, with very few repeater signs etc. Of course road users should always be aware of the speed limit, but in practice...</p> <p>The big 20s on the road are best as you'd need to be pretty inept to not notice them. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095&page=2#post-94796 Wed, 19 Dec 2012 10:55:18 +0000 chdot 94796@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"100 yards from a school main gate"</p> <p>St. Peter's?</p> <p>Noticed some line removal work nearby - didn't understand what/why. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095&page=2#post-94795 Wed, 19 Dec 2012 10:43:17 +0000 Snowy 94795@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The 'white lining' gang have been doing a lot of work round Marchmont in the last week, although for the life of me I cannot figure out their rationale for what they do and what they ignore. They spent about an hour moving the white lines of a disabled space literally 6 inches southwards, re-did about three dashes of the other parking bays, but completely ignored the all-but-invisible centre lines and give way lines a few yards away. (The invisible give way lines which now cause cars to fail to stop at a junction which is 100 yards from a school main gate) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095&page=2#post-94792 Wed, 19 Dec 2012 10:26:10 +0000 chdot 94792@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Looks like CEC is making 20mph more 'visible'. </p> <p>This was yesterday on Whitehouse Loan -</p> <p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/chdot/8284277265/"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8070/8284277265_ef7334938e.jpg"></a></p> <p>Presume they were going round doing a big batch. </p> <p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/chdot/8283974879/"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8072/8283974879_fa5300afcf.jpg"></a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095&page=2#post-94220 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:00:14 +0000 Nelly 94220@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"On balance I still think a &gt;=5mph reduction in 50% of vehicles at the cost of a little signage is quite a win"</p> <p>Thats what I was getting at yesterday - its (far from) perfect, but it is an improvement on before - not just IMO, but I know 2 cycling families who live <strong>on</strong> West Saville, and they say exactly the same as Dave.</p> <p>Big Q's - </p> <p>Would we (in 20 mph zones) rather have it back to 30? Answer from me - no.</p> <p>Do we think it can be even better? Answer from me - yes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94199 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:42:51 +0000 crowriver 94199@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>On West Saville at least, they were using a speed monitoring box (wires across the road) </em></p> <p>There's one of those been recently installed on the supposedly traffic-calmed Brunswick Road off Leith Walk, which in my experience is a favourite with rat run racers... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94198 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:40:05 +0000 Dave 94198@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"Did anyone expect more than this? Frankly I think its not a bad result if you consider it as entirely self regulated."</p> <p>Except I would imagine the sight of two cops in fluoro yellow pointing a radar gun at the road accounted for the numbers breaking 20mph to be so small.</em></p> <p>On West Saville at least, they were using a speed monitoring box (wires across the road) which is the same as they put in place before the scheme was installed. I don't think it's necessarily the case that measuring the problem changed the results here :)</p> <p>On balance I still think a &gt;=5mph reduction in 50% of vehicles at the cost of a little signage is quite a win. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94196 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:18:05 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 94196@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That I agree with. I still think it's a little disingenuous of the police to state that they're not going to enforce the limits and then 'work with the community' around those limits without telling them 'but it won't make any difference because we're not going to enforce them'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94189 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 13:20:05 +0000 Instography 94189@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>cc is absolutely correct and frustration directed at the police is, I think, misconceived. Speed limits on their own are next to useless. Police enforcement is next to useless other than as an occasional stunt to remind the stupid. There just aren't enough police officers to go round.</p> <p>Speed limits should be self-enforcing by making the road <strong>feel </strong>like a 20mph road. If you change the limit without changing the road, people will continue to take all of their cues from the road, not the sign, and drive as they did before.</p> <p>Think of the 20mph limits as another piece of botched infrastructure. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94178 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:33:34 +0000 cc 94178@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I gather (from the usual Dutch campaign blogs) that where a ~20mph limit is put in there it's done in conjunction with wholesale rationalisation/redesign of the road network, so that through traffic is guided onto a smooth, fast, free-flowing route while bicycle &amp; local traffic is guided onto a speed-limited more pleasant local route nearby. By contrast Causewayside is still a through road that's thronged with cars and lorries, and Leith Walk would be too. I wonder what the point is of imposing a low speed limit when you don't at the same time redo the roads to make them automatically guide drivers into either slowing down or moving to a faster road that's designed for motorised through traffic...? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94164 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 10:29:21 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 94164@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>Did anyone expect more than this? Frankly I think its not a bad result if you consider it as entirely self regulated.</em>"</p> <p>Except I would imagine the sight of two cops in fluoro yellow pointing a radar gun at the road accounted for the numbers breaking 20mph to be so small.</p> <p>I'm only going on personal experience, so realise that anecdote is not data, but the roads around me I ride at about 20mph, and when driving I'm definitely going 20mph, and roughly 90%, if not more, drivers are exceeding that.</p> <p>So self-regulation doesn't work; threat of the actual polis does. IMHO. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94108 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:30:03 +0000 Nelly 94108@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Did anyone expect more than this? Frankly I think its not a bad result if you consider it as entirely self regulated.</p> <p>Putting 20mph signs everywhere with zip real policing has worked - to an extent.</p> <p>I think this is exactly what the police expected, and presume they want some budget to enforce it - why not use that tactic, its what I would do. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94102 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:49:28 +0000 kaputnik 94102@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I don't suppose it's worth explaining to the poster of the self-answered questions the difficulty of collecting figures for things that haven't happened yet...</p> <p>However the figures about how reducing speed cuts mortality levels in accidents are pretty clear. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94101 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:39:19 +0000 cb 94101@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Those comments are great! We've also got someone answering their own question with "Thought not".</p> <p><em>Anyone have any figures for how many accidents this new 20 zone has prevented? Thought not.</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94100 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:24:47 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 94100@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>Obviously the people who have trialled the 20mph lmit must drive automatics. Try doing that in a manual car - second gear, 2,500 revs to stop the car juddering - go at 30mph and the car can comfortably sit at 2,000 revs and not judder o/a better torque. Doesn't take much brains to work out that more fuel is used at 20mph, so more pollution. </p> <p>Plus- most people can tell when their car is doing 30mph - down to experience. Not many are used to tottering along at 20mph, so more attention is paid to the speedo - therefore taking eyes off the road, so increasing the potential for accidents.</p> <p>Sorry, I'm not convinced that a blanket 20mph will work, without massive increase into the police coffers</em>"</p> <p>and</p> <p>"<em>20mph in the back streets is one thing but W. Savile Terrace and Oswald Road are important local thoroughfares. </p> <p>This is also a hugely one-sided report.</em>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94098 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:19:56 +0000 Dave 94098@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>At the end of the day, the biggest safety gain comes from each of the first few mph, so reducing 50% of traffic by 5mph with no enforcement or speed infrastructure at all could be seen as quite a big win? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94087 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 16:13:13 +0000 kaputnik 94087@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Should design a card we can send to councillors, with the caption "<em>We hate to inform you that CCE told you so. <strong>But we did</strong></em>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94083 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:58:43 +0000 crowriver 94083@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So the retention of 30mph limits on arterial routes, plus lack of any enforcement, has produced driver confusion and speeding in the 20mph zone. Quelle surprise! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94082 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:50:18 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 94082@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>20mph zones all round where I live (and 3 schools on the main, speedbumped, road through). Slight downhill heading home, I'm easily cruising at 20mph - 9 times out of 10 I'll get passed. Occasionally substantially over the limit (doubling it).</p> <p>I'd say average on the 'main' roads is about 30-35mph. Would be good to know.</p> <p>I've pondered getting some light-up rope stuff to make into the shape of a 20 on my back and fire it up with some AA batteries when I get into a 20 zone. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94080 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:44:50 +0000 cb 94080@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>My feeling is that it has started to get <em>slightly</em> better over the last few months. Obviously far too many still going too fast, but it only takes a few drivers like PS to go through at 20 to bring the speed down for everyone.</p> <p>But despite that I still get angry and depressed when I travel through these areas (unless I'm in the car, ironically, when instead I feel powerful!) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94078 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:39:15 +0000 minus six 94078@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I reside in a 20mph limit street that has a digital speed display, to advise motorists on their compliance, or lack of it.</p> <p>The average speed tends to be around 34mph.</p> <p>Very few motorists are interested in going under 28mph.</p> <p>Some are perfectly happy to stay above 40mph. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94076 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:34:31 +0000 PS 94076@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@mgj I quite enjoyed doing a spot of 20mph enforcing up Oswald Road this morning. The guy behind me seemed to be so impressed that he wanted to get a good close look of my rear bumper to help him remember the occasion in greater detail. Naturally, this made me only too happy to help him by slowing down that litle bit further...</p> <p>Although, that said, it was quite instructive how slow driving at 20mph feels, especially having driven up the motorway and the A702 earlier today. Even consciously driving to 20 to make a point I found I was heading up to and beyond it when I glanced down at the speedo. On that basis alone, it will take a few months for people to get used to it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94073 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:12:31 +0000 Min 94073@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I initially thought that 40% speeding was actually pretty good as it means 60% are not. Then I read that you need to be going over 25mph to be considered speeding and it is not that good really. I wonder what the proportion of drivers sticking to 20mph is? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94072 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:04:01 +0000 mgj 94072@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Because they are not enforced and the council shied away from making the case for them, the new zones are much like driving in the 20 mph zone in the Royal Park. Those of us who drive at 20 are subject to aggressive tailgating and dangerous overtakes, particularly from taxis and tradesmen. Without a critical mass of drivers willing to drive at 20, they will never be self-policing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94071 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:03:21 +0000 Dave 94071@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>As we live just off West Saville... I think 50% of vehicles doing &lt;25mph is probably fair. As I have to turn right off it to get home, I'd be lying if I said it hasn't become more pleasant than before.</p> <p>I don't personally understand why the police won't enforce the limits. It's not like they need to do it all the time, and it would bring in a bucketload of cash.</p> <p>Is the problem that they need to expend manpower / budget enforcing it but don't get any payback themselves? Perhaps we could give them a target? (ahem!) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94070 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:51:40 +0000 kaputnik 94070@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>The police are simply indicating that they "don't work"</em></p> <p>Yes. Because they won't enforce them. So what they're actually doing - in my eyes anyway - is reinforcing the case that they need enforced.</p> <p>If I'm honest, the only change I noticed before and after the 20mph zone is that there are now signs up here and there saying it's a 20 zone. Any average change in speed has been imperceptible to me. But then again I never thought that it was really possible to go that fast in town in a car and that was a good reason to make the 20mph zones blanket, rather than to the exclusion of "arterial" routes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9095#post-94069 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:45:14 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 94069@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Morningsider, I guess it depends on whether you see:</p> <p><em>"While our focus will remain on policing the main arterial routes where the highest proportion of collisions occur, we will take <strong>appropriate and proportionate action</strong> against anyone who we detect speeding in any 20mph zone."</em></p> <p>As...</p> <p><em>How many people have your force given fines for breaking 20mph speed limits?<br /> Not applicable (see above).</p> <p>How many people were given a punishment for breaking 20mph speed limits?<br /> Not applicable (see above)</p> <p>What punishments were given?<br /> Not applicable (see above)</em></p> <p>Okay, so their FOI <em>does</em> say that they will give 'advice' to those who break it more than once.</p> <p>It's sadly another example of 'we won't do anything until there's a serious accident/injury/death'. Personally I'd rather they tried to enforce initially so that it didn't come to that. </p>