http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Cars are not over-taxed! en Mon, 18 May 2026 18:57:30 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167&page=2#post-95340 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:46:15 +0000 Kim 95340@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Cars are subsidised, especially if you take into account the external costs, see <a href="http://kimharding.net/blog/?p=470">here</a> and <a href="http://rdrf.org.uk/2012/12/31/the-true-costs-of-automobility-external-costs-of-cars/">here</a>. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167&page=2#post-95289 Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:56:35 +0000 crowriver 95289@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>33 bus goes to the school campus, 39 local service stops nearby, so there are options other than the car if people want to use them. Also, define 'reasonable' walking distance: I used to walk about a mile to primary school, and over 3 miles to secondary.</p> <p>I know habits have changed over the last couple of decades, but there's nothing stopping (most) kids from using their legs. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167&page=2#post-95284 Sat, 29 Dec 2012 13:06:14 +0000 gembo 95284@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@calumcookable - there are three schools on the campus at Dalkeith. Non denominational,RC and special. All three require big chunk of the pupil populations to be bussed. Not sure how many more busses than when the schools were on a separate Sites. The last time I visited the special school I cycled from Edinburgh via Musselburgh. Lovely cycle. Again I am not sure how many pupils in the three schools cycle but there is a reasonable path, sustrans and local. The land was a closed down factory I recall. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167&page=2#post-95282 Sat, 29 Dec 2012 12:45:43 +0000 Calum 95282@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm not familiar with Dalkeith, so I had a look on Google Maps. There seem to be two new schools on the eastern periphery of the town. There are almost no houses within reasonable walking distance. </p> <p>A similar thing happened in my town. I grew up a 10-minute walk from school. A new school was built on the outskirts and the old school in the town centre was sold off to Morrisons.</p> <p>The people responsible for choosing these locations have shown a flagrant disregard for active travel (i.e pollution and children's health) and have essentially forced hundreds of children into car dependency. Contemptible.</p> <p>The Borders Railway should help Midlothian, but even so: it's clear different government departments are not talking to each other. There is no joined-up transport strategy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167&page=2#post-95280 Sat, 29 Dec 2012 12:05:18 +0000 chdot 95280@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Cars are not over-taxed!"...</p> <p>"<br /> Lib Dem Press Office (@LibDemPress)<br /> 29/12/2012 10:05<br /> On the Fifth Day of Christmas: @LibDems axed Labour's planned 3p-a-litre fuel duty rise </p> <p><a href="http://www.ow.ly/i/1j9Zp" rel="nofollow">http://www.ow.ly/i/1j9Zp</a></p> <p>"</p> <p>Shame when important things just become tools for party-political-point-scoring. </p> <p>Oh, <em>that's</em> politics. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167&page=2#post-95273 Sat, 29 Dec 2012 10:05:46 +0000 wee folding bike 95273@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>We actually picked up a second car because the fuel cost of the 15 yr old Volvo 940 was getting silly.</p> <p>The 12 yr old Volvo V40 was free and uses about 60% of the fuel. It's not as nice, no heated seats annoys the memsahib and you can't fling as much stuff in it to go camping. Kids bikes tend not to make the cut.</p> <p>I rarely use a car when I'm out without boys. If all the boys are going out then we still need to use the bigger one as they don't all fit in a V40. </p> <p>I don't think our mileage has changed.</p> <p>When the memsahib looked at houses further out of town I have pointed out that it would be more difficult for me to cycle into to work and there would be a cost involved there so cycling has been a factor in choosing where we stay. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167&page=2#post-95272 Sat, 29 Dec 2012 09:28:45 +0000 chdot 95272@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"40% cut down on driving because of price hikes"</p> <p><a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7978" rel="nofollow">http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7978</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167&page=2#post-95269 Sat, 29 Dec 2012 01:36:24 +0000 Smudge 95269@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>When I started work in Edinburgh and lived in Curre I used the buses, it was so unpleasant that I learned to ride a motorbike and bought one and commuted on that (having never considered it and already owning a car). The cost/distance was not a factor, the comfort/ease/experience was. As long as motor transport is more pleasant and in any way affordable it will be a feature round town imho.</p> <p>Before I'm told "it's an easily cyclable distance", (it is) I was 17 years old in an office with no interest in how you travelled but who were very hung up on collar and tie and who actually banned me from taking my motorbike to site visits (in W Pilton) but insisted that I take a bus and claim it back "because of the image".</p> <p>Local Government since you ask.... bet you it's hardly changed in most places! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167&page=2#post-95266 Sat, 29 Dec 2012 00:52:44 +0000 crowriver 95266@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>If you drive south through the edges of Dalkeith, there are loads of estates where you'd basically have to drive to get anywhere. No public transport, no attempt to build in any form of use except cars. </em></p> <p>Methinks your choice of mode of transport influences the persective. Dalkeith's quite well served by buses, even the housing to the south. Last time I checked the centre of Dalkeith was 12km from Edinburgh city centre, less than 8 miles. A cyclable commute distance. Reasonable shared use paths until the bypass, though the roundabouts and the roads into Edinburgh could be better for cycling that's for sure. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167&page=2#post-95264 Sat, 29 Dec 2012 00:20:35 +0000 chdot 95264@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I think it's far from all personal choice"</p> <p>When I said "personal choice" I was meaning things like 'house with garden' and commuting time/distance/mode rather than using money (mortgage) to 'get what you want'. </p> <p>If money really wasn't a consideration (but you still wanted to work in Edinburgh) I'm sure some people would choose <a href="http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/scotland/scotland-s-most-expensive-street-entry-fee-1-7million-1-2709535">Dick Place</a> others would go for a whole house in a New Town 'terrace', suburban Barnton - especially the streets on the way to the golf course path - would appeal to some while 'proper rural' (Lothians/Fife) would be another "personal choice". </p> <p>But away from that financial fantasy, there are still areas where some people will make 'sub-optimum' decisions based on lack of information or wrong assumptions - buses too slow/too far to cycle/it's cheaper by car (to mention a few random ones). </p> <p>Realistically bus travel is cheap in and around Edinburgh - though at capacity on parts of some routes at commuting time. Using cars is still too cheap/easy to persuade many people to look at the alternatives. </p> <p>Cycle facilities are too inadequate to encourage mass modal shift. </p> <p>Real incomes aren't rising for significant numbers of people and mortgages are harder to come by than a few years ago - so options/choices are probably more restricted than most people would like. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167&page=2#post-95263 Sat, 29 Dec 2012 00:17:47 +0000 steveo 95263@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yipes, that is a lot!</p> <p>I Suppose when you look at other cities where outside areas have been enveloped it is no different in theory. In practice most large cities have better public transport connecting commuter centers with work areas.</p> <p>Greater London is about 6 times the size of Edinburgh and a commute similar in size of a fife commute would be common but it is facilitated by the only functioning integrated public transport system in the UK. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95261 Sat, 29 Dec 2012 00:10:36 +0000 Instography 95261@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Seems it's about <a href="http://www.edinburgh-inspiringcapital.com/live/working_in_edinburgh/commuting_in_edinburgh.aspx">115,000</a> a day. I suppose for a city of 220,000 households that's rather a lot. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95260 Sat, 29 Dec 2012 00:08:23 +0000 bdellar 95260@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If you drive south through the edges of Dalkeith, there are loads of estates where you'd basically have to drive to get anywhere. No public transport, no attempt to build in any form of use except cars. Very depressing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95259 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 23:47:44 +0000 steveo 95259@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Do we know how many people commute to jobs in Edinburgh from the surrounding tributaries? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95257 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 23:32:00 +0000 Instography 95257@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yes. Any house is affordable if you have enough money. But as you say, if you're on a relatively low or average income the options around Edinburgh, even if you're willing to live in a marginally dodgy area, aren't that extensive. Even if everyone decided to buy in those areas there simply aren't that many houses on the market to allow everyone who wanted on to buy one. Competition would simply push the prices up. Many people are forced out to West Lothian and Fife and into their cars. I think it's far from all personal choice and people opting for something bigger. The new build in Duloch and Inverkeithing are hardly bigger than houses in South Gyle or Forrester Park, although they are new and without any reputational baggage. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95256 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 23:25:08 +0000 SRD 95256@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>As chdot suggested, you really need to factor in schools. I love the area we are in for many reasons, but we would probsbly be elsewhere if it weren't for the schools.</p> <p>I know most of our primaries are pretty good, but the differentials in the secondaries are pretty striking. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95253 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 23:09:39 +0000 steveo 95253@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm a little confused by the measure, surely that would make virtually any house affordable depending on the income? </p> <p>I think that a lot of people on a low "professional" income (~£25K) who can afford 4x plus a deposit want more for their money than a smallish house in a (marginally) dodgy area. So they end up spending their life driving and not coming in to the office when the weather is a little off. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95252 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 22:57:56 +0000 Instography 95252@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>By affordable I mean either that the price:income ratio was less than 4 (which is really pushing affordability) or that the repayments on a mortgage taken with a 90% loan would use less than 30% of a household's net income. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95251 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 20:23:43 +0000 wee folding bike 95251@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Number 1 son is 22 and has no licence. He would have been quite happy to get one but I wasn't going to insure a car for him because it would have been thousands per year. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95249 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 19:18:19 +0000 sallyhinch 95249@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@edd1e_h - according to the RAC report it's actually the opposite - there are more cars, but they're each being driven less far on average, I suspect because of the rise of the two car household. </p> <p>I think there are two big one-off changes going on at the same time which are partly cancelling each other out - the decline in company car use and the rise of women driving. But less clearly, there seems to be a younger generation coming through that are less car dependent for whatever reason. If they stay that way throughout their lives rather than just in their 20s, then we'll have seen peak car at least per head in the UK. Now might be the moment to try and provide the sort of conditions to lock non-car driving in to that generation, even as they start to have kids and settle out in the suburbs. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95237 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 16:58:43 +0000 chdot 95237@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"This map illustrates it nicely"</p> <p><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8498/8318648906_eb597b50ca.jpg"></p> <p>Also shows that the details can be a bit suspect!</p> <p>"I always wondered how the developers convinced the council to sell off megetland"</p> <p>In simple terms a developer offered Lothian Regional Council some money and all weather pitches and changing rooms (oh, and a new clubhouse for BRFC). After several years (and lots of objections) the offer was accepted - without anyone else being asked to match or offer more. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95230 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 16:26:31 +0000 steveo 95230@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I always wondered how the developers convinced the council to sell off megetland. This map illustrates it nicely. Click on the least deprived map... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95229 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 16:26:18 +0000 cb 95229@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"We had this discussion a while back (can't find the thread)"</p> <p><a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9061">Possibly this one</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95228 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 16:14:13 +0000 gembo 95228@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Crowriver</p> <p>Good map</p> <p>Some of the Harrison Gdns / Polwarth crew live next to scotlands's least deprived area</p> <p>Good to see ferguslie park in paisley punching above its weight to keep easterhouse, castlemilk, craigmllar, pilton etc off bottom spot </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95223 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 14:57:03 +0000 crowriver 95223@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>We had this discussion a while back (can't find the thread) and the only place to have experienced 'peak car' in the UK is London. Coincidentally, this city has a huge public transport infrastructure which is continually invested in. There's also a congestion charge zone in the city centre. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95222 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 14:47:21 +0000 neddie 95222@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think it's an oversimplification just to look at the number of cars owned in the UK which I guess is largely static.</p> <p>The point is people are driving <em>further</em> on average each day, which equates to more cars on the road at any given time.</p> <p>As roads get widened/'improved' then the magic 'one hour' commute boundary extends further out, encouraging people to live further way from where they work and shop.</p> <p>Motoring costs are still coming down in real terms, so I don't expect any 'peak car' any time soon, unless something major happens to the price of oil (like quadruples). Most of the reduction in motoring seen today is probably down to the recession biting. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95219 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 14:19:01 +0000 crowriver 95219@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Well if you <em>really</em> want to know which areas are 'desirable' for ordinary people on 'middle incomes' to live, raise kids, etc. then check out this map, which shows areas classified according to the government's indices of multiple deprivation:</p> <p><a href="https://sites.google.com/site/scotdep2012/home" rel="nofollow">https://sites.google.com/site/scotdep2012/home</a></p> <p>Basically, if you live in the Southside, or large parts of the north and west of the city, you're fine. Anywhere else, you have to be careful to avoid the 'poor' areas.....unless you like that sort of thing/can't afford anywhere else/don't fancy moving to Fife. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95214 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 13:45:35 +0000 steveo 95214@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Steveo articulates something that is quite fascinating. I'm sure there is a well known 'official' phrase but I'd call it micro-neighbourhoods. </em></p> <p>My mate used to work at the council, apparently at that time, the central line down my road was a the divide between what the council defined as a "deprived" area and not. I'm on the "nice" side, not noticed any difference tbh. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95213 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 13:31:53 +0000 chdot 95213@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> “Half of Scotland’s most desirable addresses are in the Capital, which has a mixture of classical architecture in the Old Town and Georgian buildings of the New Town.”</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/latest-news/streets-in-east-lothian-join-some-expensive-company-1-2709981" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/latest-news/streets-in-east-lothian-join-some-expensive-company-1-2709981</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9167#post-95210 Fri, 28 Dec 2012 12:09:53 +0000 chdot 95210@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"There are much cheaper houses in the estate proper but no one wants to live there"</p> <p>"they'd rather spend the same and get a bigger house out of town and spend their life driving"</p> <p>I know that was written as one sentence, but it's actually two separate (generally related) points. </p> <p>We've had threads before about 'where to live' 'why I live in Fife (etc.) before. </p> <p>As with most things on here it's all related to "personal choice". </p> <p>There are clearly parts of Edinburgh where 'most' people would choose not live - equally clearly people live there (not just as council tenants) and I'm sure many are happy to be there!</p> <p>From previous threads, having children is a major factor - this influences choices about size/'value for money' plus things like 'safety' and 'good schools'. </p> <p>Steveo articulates something that is quite fascinating. I'm sure there is a well known 'official' phrase but I'd call it micro-neighbourhoods. </p> <p>Not just an Edinburgh thing of course. There are parts of London with expensive Georgian houses on one side of the street and a 'notorious' estate on (literally) the other. </p> <p>Obviously this will distort 'average' price for an area but it also means places where 'bargains' can be had. I suspect such details are harder to map without some micro-local knowledge. </p> <p>When people/developers notice this it has often been the start of what has become known as 'gentrification' - it doesn't always work...</p> <p>Parts of Islington and Leith spring to mind and changes to housing benefit <em>may</em> speed this up (particularly in London). </p> <p>It will be interesting to see how (if measurable) the tram, QBC and 'improved' Leith Walk affect house prices. </p> <p>But apart from the 'property game' I think a key point of this thread is how much (if at all) places to live/work, and how to travel between them, are decided 'rationally'. </p> <p>Many people only consider fuel costs on the basis that they already/'must' have a car. </p> <p>Presumably people commuting by train to/from Glasgow consider the extra cost over a bus worth it for time saved/perceived comfort benefits. </p> <p>Personal choices based on rational (or not) considerations. </p> <p>The main problem in the UK is the decisions and assumptions made over the last 60 years or so - </p> <p>Cars good</p> <p>Public transport not so good (except around London where BILLIONS get spent)</p> <p>Bicycles irrelevant</p> <p>Road bridge tolls bad (I bet Fife house prices have gone up more than the cost of MANY FB crossings!)</p> <p>Housing/transport rational? </p>